hairnet

I'm familiar with this finger soreness fatigue from brevets I have ridden. It was getting difficult to even work my friction barcons.

Maybe my body is different than others but I hardly have to move my body to reach the DT levers to make a shift. Shifting is easy and really quick since I tried index DT shifters.

repechage

Down tube shifters, especially of the friction variety, provides similar satisfaction to being able to drive a manual shift automobile.
I have three vehicles, and they are all manuals.

Lamplight

I definitely prefer downtube shifters to any sort of brifter. Aside from things already mentioned, I find that with brifters I end up keeping my hands in one position on the bars much longer, which is more likely to make them numb or cause pain. I also have found that I really don't like the way cable housing feels under my bar tape, no matter how I route it, and this is the main reason I also prefer non-aero brake levers. As far as downtube shifters being hard to reach, since my frame size is 55-56cm the shifters really aren't that far from my handlebars, and since I tend to ride with my elbows bent, reaching down to the shifters barely changes my position, if it does at all. One more thing, with downtube shifters I can shift over numerous cogs in one motion, going up OR down numerous cogs very, very quickly. I realize some brifters allow this, but in my experience it's still not quite as fast in those particular situations. Probably faster for every other situation, though.

AZORCH

I feel the same way. On long rides - heck, on any ride - I like to move my hands around into different positions and grips. My '89 Paramount is the only one I have where I shift from the hoods and Lamplight nails it: my hands never seem to move.

DMC707

This is akin to saying - "I have a 25" Curtis MAthis console TV and Love-love its performance over the newer offerings !" ---

No --- there is no advantage to DT shifting ---- I stuck with DT shifting as a racer until 1998 and was one of the last to switch to brifters in my area --- i waited 8 years too long

I told myself some of the same jibberish i hear here

"What if i need neutral support? - A Maillard freewheel wont work with such and such chain/shifters!
Or
I love my Sachs cassette - dont want to switch to Shimano or Campy - besides, i am saving half a pound

-- AND i also used the argument about not having my hands fall asleep too

So now - STI on all the daily drivers ---- a few of the wall hangers still have downtube shifters though
Geez -- the brifters have been around 25 years now - thats a quarter of a century

look171

I grew racing on Campy friction downtube shifters. The local hot dog training rides were the fastest in the early to mid 90s. I talked to some of the guys that are still riding it today from the old days. they say its still just as fast, no difference no matter what shifters was used. they will find the right gear, if not, it will be a split second, and shift, off you go. Al the quicker or not BS is just a bunch of guys talking. You feel the speed coming up, then drop your hands down to shift. Many times, there is no need to shift even if they are going balls out. That said, I have had every generation of Shimano DA from 8 spd brifters to their 10 speed. have not tried 11 spds yet. When I grow up then I should give it a try. Cable or not, you get use to it. I am one of the very few guys that are still doing that ride we used to do without any of the electronic on the bike or wrist. I go by feel still.

Six jours

If I decided to go racing again I would use brifters. Especially if I went criterium racing again.

But for group rides - even group rides where I am hanging on by my teeth - downtube index doesn't seem to be any kind of handicap. DT friction, maybe. I mean, maybe I'm just out of practice, but occasionally I will blow a shift with DT friction - especially when I am totally wasted and I go round a corner to discover the completely unexpected 20% grade.

But I don't race anymore and I almost never go for fast group rides. By myself on the bike trail or with a few good friends out on the road, it truly doesn't matter what kind of shifter I'm using. AFAIC, all the posts about how great brifters are or how DT shifters are more light or reliable or whatever are all nonsense for the great majority of day-to-day bicycle riding.

look171

Oh, I just broke my collarbone on that ride yesterday morning in the rain. I have not had an accident from that ride for over 30 years since I was 16. I finally bought it from a dumb inexperience rider who didn't want to get spray by the rooster tail and cross my wheel and took me down hard. Hey, that's the way it goes. nothing happened to my SRAM shifters but some some scratches.

Six jours

Yeah, well, I have a box of Super Record and C-Record brake levers that broke off in crashes. IIRC, replacements were about $30 at the time. What's a Dura-Ace brifter going for at the moment?

look171

Agreed. Most guys that have ridden competitively know that its a none issue just like carbon vs ole steel. That said, it sure its nice to be able to shift off the saddle. I especially like it during those really fast group rides where we have to get going when the light turns green. I am usually shifting into my lower gear before I stop. Once I am off the saddle getting going again, I am usually shifting as I get moving. Sometimes as much as 3 gears just to get back up to speed. Oh yes, they drawl blood when the lights turns green. Bastards.

look171

I really don't know to tell you the truth. Once I have a bike set up, I am one of those that just ride it until I am tired of it then change them out few years down the road. I am still riding 10 speed and keeping up just fine without that 11th gear.

bikemig 

and the weight saving in ounces and dollars,

Six jours

I rode with LaGrange for a few years and don't recall them stopping for lights.

Honestly, though, when riding DT friction I just don't bother changing gears that much and really haven't found it a handicap with most fast group rides. There is that occasional blown shift when in dire straights, but mostly, I keep up with pretty much the same guys and get dropped by pretty much the same guys regardless of whether I'm using DT, DT friction, or brifters. Yeah, I shift a lot more with brifters, but that doesn't seem to make any actual difference in speed or efficiency or any other measurable metric.

My personal opinion is that the whole thing doesn't really amount to much and is useful only for starting fights on the internet.

look171

Fights in the net is funny. I have to remember that line. I agree with you, downtube shifting isn't a handicap by any means, but a bit of a luxury id you ask me. I happen to like the luxury, heck who doesn't?

I rode for La Grange in 87 just for that one year. all the other years, I rode for Montrose. Did you do that MDR ride much?

randyjawa 

I, truly, dislike down tube shifters! Using them forces one to take his, or her, hands off of the handlebars ever time a shift, up or down, is required. This gobbles up time and effort, while negatively impacting the safety factor. My opinion, of course.

If down tube shifters are so great, why are none being used in serious competition today? If down tube shifters are so great, why is it that not one bicycle manufacturer, today, offers them on a production bike? If down tube shifters are so great, why would any of us vintage bicycle enthusiasts like, or even prefer, Brifters?

The point is, down tube shifters have their place, from a functional point of view. Their place is on a antiquated machine that was competitive in its day, but not because of the down tube shifters. Competitive then only because every other bike, except those sporting stem shifters, were fitted with down tube shifters also.

So, do they offer any practical advantage? Nope, other than the weight saving which probably does not amount to all that much in the long run.

bradtx

zeego, Except for perhaps a retro appearance I don't think there's any advantage DT shifters have over integrated shifters.

Brad

chewa

I love my ergos on my road bike and on my touring bike. I have a 10 speed rear on the road bike so the gears are very close ratio. Using ergos mean I am constantly selecting the gear to keep my cadence where I want it.

On the touring bike, I've found ergos really help when loaded with luggage, at low speed. Cycling slowly in traffic through Brugges (or similar old cities) on cobbles with panniers means being able to keep both hands on the bars is an advantage.

However, my Campag d/t shifters I bought new in 1978 are still working well on the third bike I've fitted them to, and I've worn out 3 sets of right side ergos in the last 15 years (indexing starts to go_ and had to have repairs done.

If I was going for a long tour - I'd go for D/T just because of the simplicity and serviceability. Elsewhere, I still think the advantages of "brifters" outweigh the disadvantages.

Barrettscv 

Like most things in life, it depends.

Generally summery: if you shift often, brifters are rapid and convenient. If shifting is infrequent, down tube friction shifters are sufficient, simple and elegant.

Why would a cyclist shift often? Rolling hilly terrain and group rides demand frequent, rapid shifts. However, brifters are expensive, add weight, and compatibility issues limit divetrain choices. Indexed shifters are highly recommend for 9, 10 and 11 speed cassettes, however.



Why are downtube friction shifters elegant? These shifters are lightweight, simple, inexpensive, reliable, and are compatible with all cranksets and most derailleurs. They also shift well with 5, 6, 7, and 8 speed cogsets. Is shifting necessary but not urgent or frequent? Downtube frictions shifters are ideal.



Need to shift quickly without removing your hands from the handlebars but like the freedom of open compatibility when selecting cranksets and derailleurs? Suntour Barcons rule.

Sir_Name 

All of the significant pros/cons of integrated/DT/bar end shifting have been made - I'll add that an advantage of any one system could/would be to add some differentiation among a person's 'collection'. My modern-ish road bike is equipped with STI and I love it. My C&V road bike is equipped with friction DTs and I love it. I've had others with bar-end shifters and I loved those (and have some set aside for the next project). The bikes have different purposes and their builds reflect those purposes. Variety and spice.

One added consideration when using integrated shifting on C&V would be handlebar choice. Integrated levers are designed with a specific bar geometry in mind. They may or may not play nicely with your C&V bars both in terms of geometry/fit/comfort and aesthetics. I'm sure they'll fit just fine on many/most - if not, there are plenty of solutions out there. The retro-roadies STI/Ergo thread has a metric **** ton of eye candy.

daf1009

Given a choice (not wanting to stay "true" to a bike's origins)...I will go with Bar End shifters...they have the advantages of both DT and Brifters...

(1) Simple and elegant
(2) Relatively cheap
(3) Accurate shifting
(4) Moves hands around
(5) Lots of compatibility
(6) Light weight

And...

Of course, they are probably one of the BEST items at starting Internet fights!

That being said...I have bikes with Bar End's, Brifters (SRAM, Shimano and Campy) and DT...shucks...I even have one that has a Suicide shifter on the front derailleur (did it once...will NEVER do this shifting again...scared the beejeezus out of me!)...

SJX426 

@zeego looks like you have a lot of opinions to consider. One thing is clear, everyone has their preference based on their riding and experience. I guess you need to create your own. For me that is part of the fun! De Rosa is on my wish list but I did acquire a Pinarello with 8spd Dura Ace. I would have preferred Campagnolo to keep with the Italian theme but in '91 DA was the preferred choice for many. Mine happens to be DT index. Many have said this is nearly the best ever. One suggested getting brifters for it but I just can't get past the price for some that are equal or better in quality than what I have.

DT shifting is what I know since the mid '60's and I am comfortable with them. Friction can become as good as index once you are tuned into the bike. Everything that has been said about this is true for me. I confess, the DA index DT shifting is very sweet! One of the reasons I don't want to give the bike up as a flipper. So maybe you should seriously consider doing the DA group with DT index then move to brifters when the back pocket gets heavier.
[IMG]P1020128 by superissimo_83, on Flickr[/IMG]

Caliper

Sounds like Shimano shifters? Even moving one cog down on the cassette is a pain there. And moving to the large ring, what a pain!
SRAM doubletap shifters are very short throw however. I dont have to even move my hand unless moving three cogs up on the cassette.

Depends on your local market I guess. The used bike market here is frankly very sparse. eBay prices vs used bikes on Craigslist here, the price of a used ergo shifter pair ($100-150) would buy you a '70's vintage Schwinn Varsity. Any nice used bike ($300+) is the cost of new shifters on eBay.

No argument here. Very little to go wrong with DT shifters.

There's an idea - DT front/ergo shift rear!

Nothing stopping you from changing hand position or even stetching with ergo shifters although I see the advantage of preventative rather than reactive solutions. On longer/less aggressive rides, I frequently use hand positions that put ergo shifters out of reach. When the time comes to shift, they're still right there behind the brake lever to tap off a gear change.

On #2 , that's interesting. Obiviously I reach down with my arm, but I always use my finger/hand muscles to do the actual shifting, often bracing a finger against the tube or the shifter boss, rather than move my entire arm to accomplish the shift.

Lone

I've had STIs, bar end shifters, and currently use downtube shifters. i agree, but i also used to ride fixed for 3 years, so i am anticipating keeping my cadence anyway.
when i rode the other shifters, i had not ridden fixed.

zeego

Hello everyone. Thanks for all the responses. Many things to think about. Like I said in my original post, I wanted to equip the new De Rosa with some nice DuraAce STI. It seems, sometimes, the only logical way to buy any higher end group is to purchase a whole bike. Price is not too much of an issue for me at this point. I try to budget everything out so I'm not over my head on these things. I'm basically on the hunt for a nice group.

STI offers some clear advantages: safety, speed, ease of use, etc. But they are also more expensive, clunky with all their different parts and boy are they ugly when they get beaten up. DT shifters are simple, attractive, easy to fix, cheaper, more challenging, light, classic and bombproof. And less plastic. Should I compare DT shifters to flying a warbird as opposed to flying a jet? (STI) I can tell you with most certainly that warbirds are definitely more challenging and fun. 8-)

Anyhow, The most important thing I have taken from this thread is to use the shifting system that best fits your riding style and what type of cycling enthusiast you are. For me:
- I ride alone.
- I don't race.
- I take my time...sometimes I don't.
- I love hearing the bike.
- I love the fact that some of the greatest cyclists used DT shifters.
- I do not subscribe to the notion of latest is greatest
- I'm a classic junky
- Love steel
- and others....

So...the hunt is on for the perfect group. I've been offered a nice DA 7400 set. Might have to jump on it. Am I completely set on DT shifters? NO. STI? NO. I think the deciding factor is the set that "speaks to me".

Barrettscv 

I'll recommend 8 speed Dura Ace with downtube shifters and a 9 speed Ultegra long cage rear derailleur. Prices are moderate and quality is superb.

You will be able to run any crankset with simple and fast chainring shifting. You can use a compact double or triple without changing anything else on the bike, except the chain length. Friction downtube shifters for the crankset are often better than brifters, with fast shifts and reliable chainring changes while providing trouble-free operation. Dura Ace and 600 series rear downtube shifters can be operated in indexed mode or friction mode. Indexed shifting is a great feature with 8 speed cassettes.

You will also have both a wide gear range and tight cog spacing. You can use a 13-26 for general riding.g, a 12-21 for faster rides and an 11-30 for hilly rides.

Aesthetically, the bike retains the original appearance, while taking advantage of some of the improvements in divetrain performance.