cudak888 

I'm spinning this off from the Slightly Marinated Moulton thread as I fear this might get lost otherwise:

I recently picked up a Moulton Mk.I ('65, US/Huffy model) with a later of surface rust over it. I knew I could dunk this frame in a pool of OA, but I was curious if there was an alternate method that would be less labor intensive and use less water.

In the past, I've used the "soaked rag in Goo Gone" approach for soaking a stubborn sticker, and started wondering whether an application of oxalic acid could be applied in the same manner, using the aforementioned soaked rag or paper towel to conform to the surface and suspend the solution for long enough.

I decided to give it a try on the Moulton. Here's what it looked like to start with:







I mixed up some OA (probably too much) in a 1/4" deep container of water for dipping.

With a glove, I lightly dipped a triple-folded-over paper towel into the mix, let the paper towel soak for a second, then pulled it out. (If you try this and get too much water in the mix, squeegee the excess back into the container). I layered it over the Moulton like paper mache:



I've done this twice, and each time left these on for about two hours. One of the rags in the second round had dried up by then for some reason (the others remained wet), but it did the job.

Here are the results after neutralizing with a similar rag soaked in water and baking soda, followed by a wipe with WD40, then a dry-down, Meguiars' #7, and wax. Don't let the extra steps fool you; the result you see is basically what you get at the baking soda stage; I just chose to polish and wax it to help seal the paint.



The remaining rusty areas haven't been soaked yet.





Nighttime pic for contrast:



Note that this didn't make the paint entirely smooth, of course - there's still spiderwebbing, but the stains themselves are gone. The rear fender cleaned up the best, while the front is the opposite, and shows the type of surface one could have at the end of the cleaning:




Regardless, I think this counts as a win, and a perfectly workable, alternate method of clearing up surface spiderwebbing rust in a more localized way (with less risk to waterlogging the paint and decals) than an outright OA bath.

I'm curious to see the results of anyone who tries this - I know pastorbobnlnh already mentioned to me that he's going to give this a try on his Schwinn New World.

-Kurt

RustyJames 

Kurt,

What concentrate of OA/water do you use? I can’t seem to find anything that resembles a consensus.

Darth Lefty 

bet some saran wrap over that would help it stay in contact and not evaporate

AdventureManCO 

Your Huffy Moulton is thanking you.

obrentharris 

I too am curious about this. I tried a similar experiment with oxalic acid soaked rags, but they dried out too quickly for the acid to have any effect. I assumed that my usual 24-hour soaking solution of 1 tablespoon to 1 gallon was too weak but was reticent to try something much stronger.
Brent

dddd

A tablespoon in one gallon will show results on rust within a couple of hours of soaking. Using towels would seem to be a little slower since the smaller voluime of acid is becoming neutralized by it's own progress you could say.

I treated my Pro Tour using vinegar on cloth rags, wrapped with old foil and plastic remnants from my kitchen trash to prevent drying. I left it overnight which really cleaned up the frame at the cable clamps.

BEFORE:



DURING:


AFTER:

cudak888 

I too have yet to find a hard consensus, except that "too much doesn't hurt." I usually err in that direction.

In this case, there was way too much OA in this tiny little tray of water when I started. Two days on appears to show very little evidence of OA crystals. I assume they dissolved - emphasis on the "assume" part. Don't have time tonight to do a mix to find out if it's still enough to remove the remaining stains off the Moulton.




Not a bad idea, though with exception to that one rag that seemed to dry out, the rest remained suitably wet two hours later. I think it might have been the one towel I had folded twice instead of three times over.

I know. The cleaner it gets, the less visible the Huffy sticker gets. It's like the Polaroid in Back to the Future, only in reverse.

I think I have two tablespoons to half a cup here

-Kurt

RustyJames 

Wow! I seem to see 1T OA to 1 gallon H2O as the norm. I mixed up some (relatively) strong stuff but didn’t have much success so I assumed I was off on the ratios. Maybe my expectations were too high for the really scaley rust I was attempting to remove.

AdventureManCO 

*sniff*

May we always remember the true nature of the Moulton!


Seriously though nice work. It's got me curious to pick one up to try.

cudak888 

​​​​​​
Let's call mine the "No Patience Mix."

A Moulton, or a rusty frame?

Take the rusty frame. Leave the Moulton.

The elastomer rear suspension may be essential to this thing not breaking apart, but it requires a low cadence to keep the whole thing from bouncing. Not as bad as a Wal-Mart mountain bike, but there's no real dampening whatsoever. This is a shopping bike, period. The Raleigh Twenty weighs twice as much* and easily bests the Moulton Mk.1's for a tolerable ride. I know nobody wants to hear that, but that's my take on it.

The novelty of it being a Moulton does compensate, but - in all dead seriousness - that Campagnolo-equipped Huffy LeGrande you're cooking up might actually be a more tolerable ride.

-Kurt

*Exaggeration, but a stock Twenty is a heavier beast by far

AdventureManCO 

I suppose there is a novelty factor to a smaller-wheeled bike that just gets me really curious. I grew up on BMX so I have a soft-spot in my heart for 20" (and a little smaller is okay too!). I know V-O has their little-wheeled contraption, and there are the Bike Fridays and the Bromptons.

Am I missing out?

cudak888 

I've wanted to try a Brompton for a while now. Seems like the perfect combo of usability, practicality, and portability. And, as usual with anything I'm looking at, a rip-off price to suit.

So far, the only thing I've owned that I've been happy with are Twenties. Current Dahons leave me uninterested, and I absolutely can't stand how lousy their aluminum stems are. A Mini Velo ought to be fun though; all the benefits of a diamond frame with the small wheel combo. I've seen Bike Friday framesets, never ridden one, but they look promising.

I did pick up a Riese & Müller Birdy BD-1 a few years back. That thing easily beat the Moulton for weirdness. It also suffered from the too-long top tube issue (thank you, flat bars), folded like crap, didn't stay folded, and wouldn't stand upright when folded. I got it for less than anyone has ever paid for one of them (I paid more for the Moulton, and even that was cheaper than they usually come), and not even low price could get me to appreciate the thing. It was a complete pile of dog doo and I don't regret getting rid of it for a second. The forum software won't let me say what I really think of it, but believe me, it involves words form an infamous George Carlin routine.



I rode the thing home from work one Halloween eve, if you find Twitter threads of interest:

Twitter

-Kurt

Andy_K 

I did something like this for a Clunker 100 Chanllenge back in 2016. I used shop towels soaked in EvapoRust and wrapped with Cling Wrap on a very rusty Steyr Clubman:



I went from this:



To this:



I can't remember the details. I think I used a stiff brush on it a couple of times, and probably repeated the wrapping at least once, but as you can probably imagine I didn't put a lot of work into this one.

clubman 

Wow. I'm somewhat of a big fan-boy for Moultons here. I've owned several Twenty's and none of them approach the comfort level I get on my '64 Four-Speed Deluxe.
Don't understand.

repechage

Well done procedure write up with support images.

AdventureManCO 

Kurt, great writeup. I'm bummed to hear of the trouble you experienced on the roads, but its sort of the same everywhere, as we've talked about before. On the road that leads into one of the roads to my house, they re-did the lines in the road, and made a larger, dedicated bike lane. While I applaude their intentions, its still a facepalm since they allow cars to park alongside, blocking the bike lane, and also have a right turn lane plow right into the bike lane - as if they don't think people won't completely be oblivious to noticing cyclists.

After thinking about it, I think the reality is that since cycling isn't what keeps people commuting and going to work and floating the ecomony, so it will never get the same level of attention and funding.

I probably skirt the law all the time, considering where I plant my two wheels, but it is always done after considering what is the absolute safest and wisest way to ride around vehicles.

I don't really rant about this stuff, so forgive me. I'm just trying to look out for the Huffy!

cudak888 

We're going for full The Mummy mode tonight:









If one looks at a Moulton from the standpoint of ride harshness in comparison to a Twenty, then yes - the Moulton's suspension is absolutely superior in that respect. From the standpoint of putting power down to the rear wheel, I think the Twenty does it better.

I think it all boils down to what one personally prefers in a bike, not any actual level of "better" or "worse." Case in point, while I can tolerate the parasitic drag of an internally geared hub without complaints, I have virtually zero tolerance for most sprung rear triangles. Any sort of bounce that works against my cadence or continued motion is an irritant that reminds me of Wal-Mart dual-suspension abominations. While the Moulton is by no means that bad, it doesn't really feel much different than many 2000's elastomer suspensions. In fact, it reminds me a lot of the Birdy BD-1.

Also, if I'm on an upright bar bike, I want to be upright. I can't stand the "MTB position," and the Moulton's combination of effective top tube length, long reach stem (relatively speaking) and flat handlebars all go against my short-stem-and-North Road-handlebar sensibilities.

Consider my posture on Blasptwenty, then realize that the Moulton's effective top tube is 4.5cm longer than the Twenty (57.5cm for the Moulton Mk.1, 53cm for the Twenty) and has a flat handlebar. I go from being comfortably upright on the Twenty to leaning forward on bars that are nearly flat, with a wrist position that is no where near as comfortable as a drop bar.

For the record Blasptwenty's Velo-Orange Cigne stem is 70mm and the Moulton is 76.2mm, so the difference there is minimal. It's arguably moot once one mounts a North Road, depending on width, bend, and extension.



So, just from the standpoint of what I like and dislike in bikes, the Moulton has two strikes against it that the Twenty doesn't. I've also ridden Twenties with three different factory bar combinations, so I'm also likely biased to the fact that I've had opportunities to experience them in my ideal configurations.

Don't get me wrong though. For all its issues, I'm absolutely in love with this BMC-built beast of fine British bodgery. Helps me forget that yet another Rover P6 has slipped through my fingers. It's like a bicycle equivalent to that car. Quirky, strangely constructed, not without its faults, but so charismatic that you can't help but adore the damned thing far more than you should.

I don't want to go too A&S here because I inspired you out of a Twitter thread, but I don't have the good sense to shut up, so here we go:

Any bike lane that doesn't serve riders down to the most fearful (i.e., painted and not protected) is fairly useless in my book. Confident riders will claim the lane or a wide shoulder in vehicular cycling tradition, so there's no point in making an unprotected bike lane in a door zone.

Granted, a good parking protected bike lane takes a lot of pieces to fall into place to work: It takes road space, a commitment to not just put paint down but make significant curb modifications, a willingness to deal with members of the public who are anti-cyclist (in their mind, every cyclist is a peloton in their way, all while missing the point that a PBL gets riders out of their hair in the first place), and the truly maddening issue of semi-pro/pro riders who fight protected bike lanes with no regard for the 51-56% of people who would ride if protected bike lanes were there.

This latter camp of machismo peloton/training dies really gets to me - after all, if one doesn't like the protected bike lane, go vehicular cycle in the travel lane. These riders have pflucked things up so much locally that it's warranting flyers like this one. This is one of the latest I had a hand in creating for work. (Early draft, so the QR code is not active - just in case you decide to try it. This is also the reason I get no work done on The Headbadge).


(P.S.: Where's Waldo?)

Cycling is very good for commuting and the economy when you make the infrastructure safe enough. On-street parking is vastly overrated, while a community where one can can dust off their bicycle get to work or the store with minimal stress can get a lot more people in front of storefronts (note: I'm speaking of urban and suburban areas here; rural is a different story). While not everyone will use a bicycle, a connected network will encourage a higher mode share, reducing the need for on-street parking (overrated and a poor use of space) and putting more eyes on the sidewalk directly in front of smaller businesses. Reliable and frequent public transit is also equally as important to encourage this mode shift.

What's more, the scuttlebutt is that upcoming standards documents will also allow state cycling lobbyists a good argument to get any mandatory bike lane laws off state books, so any legal objection is soon to be moot too.

To leave this topic on a positive note: We have a limited (very) network of protected lanes in Downtown Miami. They may not be the best design ever, but the folks behind it in the district and at public works moved mountains to make them happen. More importantly, these lanes are doing the work they should - encouraging folks of all ages and abilities to use them. This is my favorite video of it:

Twitter

But I digress. In fact, I digressed enough that this might as well be your LeGrand thread.

Speaking of which, your influence on the Moulton has not gone un-noticed.



-Kurt

Chuck M 

I'm liking this more than one way to skin a possum approach. It will be a while until I get to it, but I have a Carabela that needs an OA treatment and I don't want to fashion a tank out of something, buy a kiddie pool or deal with the outcome if I do this in my wife's whirlpool tub. Perhaps wrapping it in paper towels and reapplying the OA with a spray bottle will keep the towels from drying too quickly and keep the OA strength up.

cudak888 

Ooh. I like this. Less messy than OA-soaked towels too. Very curious to hear how this works for you.

-Kurt

AdventureManCO 

LOL. Love it.

Great work on the advocacy side. You've done far more than I. I commend you.

Also. You are going to need far more digressificazione / distractificazione if you are approach the insanity of the 'Huffy' thread. See, I said it. 'Huffy'. It's even in the title. Some of us aren't afraid to speak the true nature of our bicycles

cudak888 

Commend or condemn?

Just remember if some good bike infra comes down the pike, send a little something in to say you support it. You'd be surprised how far a single thoughtful email can help. Sometimes there are only 10 or 12 voices speaking up loud enough to hear, especially when half of them tend to be insufferable local advocates that just annoy everyone.

Oh, I can play this game too. Pis- Posting in your thread now

-Kurt

AdventureManCO 

Pull up a seat anytime.

cudak888 

Haven't you heard? I'm flushed with success.

-Kurt

RCMoeur 

First things first: good job on de-rusting the bike.

I'm not seeing how any of the upcoming revised editions of US bicycle references will change the status quo. The AASHTO Bike Guide hasn't supported mandatory bike lane usage in decades, and the MUTCD isn't really worded to support it either. Work on the Rules of the Road chapter of the Uniform Vehicle Code has been slow as most of the people working on it have been otherwise occupied, and even it doesn't contain any mandatory bike lane language. None of the national references to my knowledge support mandatory BLs, and yet some politicians and decisionmakers insist on imposing it - in spite of the vast absence of support from authoritative references.

cudak888 

It's a revision to one of those. I was told to keep it on the DL, so I'll leave it at that.

Fully agree that all these manuals have been standing in the way in one way or another.

-Kurt