jonny7

Or to make the question a bit more precise: during the 1970s (because from what I understand, the shift to brazed-on derailleur hangers happened somewhere during the 70s), was the absence of derailleur hanger on a steel frame an indicator of anything quality-wise? I'm asking the question because I sort of took for granted that it was a sign of a lower quality bike. However, I just got my hands on what I would consider a relatively nice (though not necessarily high end) Marinoni and the dropout has no integrated hanger. It's not a huge deal for me as I wasn't looking for a gem, but it still makes me want to know more about this. Now that I'm looking for a claw to match my nuovo record rear derailleur, I even realize that these derailleurs were sometimes sold with such a claw (Campy 80A if I'm not mistaken), and NR sure is nice stuff!

rustystrings61 

It took a while for the Campagnolo style integrated derailleur ear to become the de facto standard. The claw adapter allowed use of not only Simplex or Huret but also Benelux and other pull-chain mechanisms. Nicer British bikes also often did not have integral hangers to permit them to do the seasonal shift to fixed gear for the winter.

Raleigh’s 1972-76 Gran Sport was one of the last production 531 bikes to require a claw adapter, though it seems to me that Mercian used plain dropouts for a long time on their lesser 531 bikes as well.

jiangshi

What type of CV road frame typically wouldn't have an integrated RD hanger?

One that it it broken off.

OTS 

Or drewed !

Trakhak

It's probably safe to say that there's never been any such thing as a low-end Marinoni. Your Marinoni had a derailleur hanger originally. Either it broke off, as suggested by Jiangshi above, or it was cut off crudely for the "fixie" conversion.

repechage

That looks like it could be a Simplex dropout, some referencing could be required, I do think some has been removed but I think that was a horn to help locate the rear wheel.

jdawginsc 

Almost certain that has been brutalized. No reason for the lower dropout "lip", unless like on the Uragos I have seen from the 60s, so I assume something was attached there. The lip was usually on the NDS, but I guess it could have easily been sourced for the DS.

Shame on a Marinoni. Looking for the horn...


And a Simplex offset claw. Which I suspect was the dropout type (without the drilled hole).


My suspicion is this dropout was dis-tabbed...

jonny7

I certainly will investigate/ask Marinoni about this. The single speed conversion that was made by the PO is a bit suspicious. Still I felt like it was possibly built like this since this is clearly one of the early Marinonis. I'd say 74 or 75. Will get confirmation soon.

kroozer 

Examine the dropout for evidence of cutting and filing. The chainstay has a brazed-on cable stop for a rear derailleur, and I would bet that the dropout originally had an integral hanger.

Road Fan

Is this just curiosity /academic interest, or is there a problem where you need to understand history in order to decide how you're gonna finish the bike?

RustyJames 

If you want originality there is sleuthing to be done. If you simply want a bike that rides well, anything goes.

jonny7

I'd say it's mostly curiosity. In any case I will try to find a matching claw in order to be able to use my NR groupset. For the past years I've been learning tons of things about vintage bikes but I still have a lot to learn and this forum is basically the only place where I can acquire a better understanding of the recent history of cycling. Here I'd say it's also a case of knowing more about the early days of Marinoni. In my area I see plenty of Marinonis. The one I just acquired definitely seems older than most. I've inspected the dropouts this morning and have not seen any sign of alteration. The left dropout is exactly the same as the right one. Here's a picture of the bike - left in a weird state by the previous owner.

Wildwood 

Hadn’t heard the ‘conversion to winter fixie’ for British bikes. I now have a reason to explain lack of a hanger on my Raleigh Carlton Competition out of the Worksop factory.


To be honest - I bought it to have a Carlton. Kinda silly in retrospect, maybe even hasty! Oh well = Smile.

edit: everyone can use a Recovery Day bike.

jonny7

I'm 90% sure it is a Simplex dropout. I can read " S I M..." through the paint. Very similar to the dropout discussed here.

Finding the SN would help. There is a clear "C 48" on the BB shell but Marinoni suggests this is only for... the BB shell. Investigation on going.

Road Fan

Gotcha! In my experience, which is not vast, I've mainly seen dropouts without derailleur hangers are flat stamped dropouts. Sometimes those are very flexy and other times pretty good quality. The ones on my 1952 Rudge seem rigid and hard to twist, while the ones on the 1974 Witcombs I'm working on are pretty easy to cold-set. I also have a UO-8 around and I've never even thought about D/O alignment with those. Rudge is 1952, Witcomb is 1974, Peug is about 1969 or 1970, and a 1973 Super Course. I've seen pics of Peugeots in the early PX marques with good butted tubing, but stamped dropouts dating back into the 1950s. I can't say I've ever seen an undamaged vintage (pre-vertical) forged dropout without the hanger, unless it was a track bike.

Edit: Sorry, the Witcomb's are 1974, not 1984!

John E

Ca. 1960, Capo used stamped dropouts with flat U-shaped braze-ons.


Repainted Cap Sieger frame, serial number very close to that of my other Sieger, so who was I to say no to it?

John E

Same story with my 1962 Carlton "Worksop wonder." Full butted 531 frame, with very thick mild steel stamped dropouts and no derailleur tab.

jonny7

I will deassemble the bike and carefully look for the SN (perhaps in the headtube?). Meanhile, could the components help me gather some more info on the bike? Paging the campagnolo experts here. The seatpost seems to be a Gran Sport, at least it is identical to this one here, except that the diameter is 26.2mm.

And here is a picture of the crankset. I'm having a hard time identifying it. Gran Sport? Nuovo Record? The only thing written on the back is Strada 170. No other number.