pakossa

For years, I've been using the hands-off/balance test to try to determin my saddle fore/aft. Seemed every time I tried it, I came up with something different. Sometimes, I could pass the hands-off test with the tip-of-saddle 7 CM behind BB, yet, other times I needed it 10 - 11 CM back. Guess I finally found out why: apparently I have TWO points where I can pass it (or 1 point where I can't). Starting with the saddle rearward, I can pass HO up to KOPS. 5 MM forward of that I can't. But, if I keep moving the saddle fore, I CAN pass it again when I get my knee 20 MM in front of KOPS. (One of my bike/saddle/seatpost combos allowed me to get my knees about 70 MM in front of KOPS, and I could STILL pass HO. I'm pretty sure this is wrong, as my speed/power was very low, and my pedal stroke was rather jerky.) So, should be in the rearward or forward area that allows me to pass HO? Or, is it possible I should be in that middle area where I can't pass it? Could this mean that there is something else wrong with my fit that is causing this weird result? (Yes, I did make sure to adjust the saddle up as I moved it fore to keep saddle height the same. Also, I know bar reach can affect the ability to pass HO. I have an adjustable stem and used it to keep the reach the same as I moved the saddle, so I know it wasn't due to those changing.)

Trakhak

If you haven't been doing the test using identical gear ratios between bikes and under the same conditions otherwise (level ground, etc.), the differences might be skewing the results.

Iride01 

I think the hands off method it's a piss poor way to figure out if you got the proper anything. It put's many with way too much saddle setback, and they'd have been better off with a cruiser style bike that has a slacker seat tube.

It only really works if you are pedaling with a decent amount of leg muscle to offset the weight of your upper body. The method gives some people the idea that they shouldn't have any weight on their hands at all. And that never was the original proposition of the test.

oldbobcat

No matter how strong your legs are, they can only support the upper body mass if they are directly below it. To demonstrate, do this: Stand with your heels and back against a wall, with straight legs. Now bend over and touch your knees without moving your feet or bending your knees.

Iride01 

I don't disagree with you. At least not for the simplicity of what you stated.

My leg muscles are underneath my torso. My static balance on the bike has a good a good bit of weight on my bars. The dynamic forces of pedaling change that distribution. The more leg muscle I'm putting into the pedals, the more they serve to both lift some of the body weight off both the bars and the saddle.

My feet and legs are not directly below me when I sit in the saddle. My butt is more rearward. Even with my zero offset seat post as the seat tube is about 72° angle that has my butt behind the force of my legs on the pedals which are sometimes are at a maximum of 165 mm in from of the crank center when I'm pushing.

oldbobcat

Well, the no-hands test is just another way for riders who are more sensitive to overweighting their arms to approximate a setback point that works for them.

Turnin_Wrenches

Agreed. The hands off method is a pretty useless test on its own.

The importance of KOPS is also debatable. Yes, I find it a useful metric in the overall fit equation. It's definitely a good starting point, but there is some flexibility when looking at the complete picture.

Iride01 

Yep, KOPS is a myth. I was going to add my view on it, but I was expecting more blow back from other's on view about the no-hand test. So I deleted my comments about that.

Many of the things that today are touted as the absolute position one must be in were actually just formed BITD to be a way to get a reasonable place to figure out if that aspect of the bike was anywhere near close enough to have a chance to work for that person. Or as you said, just a good starting place. But likely needing adjustment when looking at the whole picture.