noglider 

I had foot problems, and I saw a podiatrist. He told me to move my cleats back. It has helped a lot. I've never heard the term "toe dipper," and I suppose I was one of them. As a result of pedaling with my feet farther forward, I had to lower my saddle a bit.

There seems to be consensus that the ball of the foot should be over the pedal spindle, and it might be the most energy efficient position. The problem is that it can cause the kinds of injury I have, and it's permanent. I have painful bunions, and sometimes it impinges on nerves. So lately, some bike fitters recommend pedaling with the foot farther forward on the pedal. I used to see people pedaling with their arches and thinking they're uninformed and inexperienced. Now it's how I pedal, and it may be the healthiest thing, long term.

elcruxio

If there is a consensus, it's not because of energy efficiency but because the cleat is really easy to place below the ball of the foot. You've got not one, but two markers to guide you in cleat placement so that's what's commonly done.

In terms of energy efficiency there are now more and more ultra distance riders who use more and more rearward cleat positions with some even opting to fully midfoot cleat positions. If you have your cleat under the ball of the foot, you'll need to recruit the calf to stabilize the ankle and foot. Moving the cleat backwards reduces the need for stabilization as there's less of a lever (foot) to contend with. None of the energy you spend to stabilize the foot and ankle is used to propel you forward.

PeteHski

Yeah, I slam my cleats fully back for endurance riding. Still nowhere near mid-foot, but as far as modern road shoes allow and some of them allow more rearward adjustment than was traditionally the case even a decade ago.

79pmooney

Seat top is a rather vague location. Different seats sit differently in our crotches. A wide flat saddle will not sit as high as a narrow round top saddle for a rider with his hips at the same height.

The guide I use is knee bend because there is a place that is exact. The leg extension where I can either bend my knee or straighten it completely without lifting my heel. For me, placing my bare heel on the spindle of the upside down pedal and adjusting my seat to achieve that point is very close. Within 2-3mm. I have to go on rides and tweak with reference tape on the seatpost and a wrench to get closer. Most other people like their seats a touch higher - say wearing road cycling shoes or house slippers. Some in heeled leather dress shoes. Once you know your shoe, setting that seat height the first time around is easy. Plus this takes seat shape out of the equation. Yes, change seats and you have to run this again but you never have to try to decide where you should be measuring to.

genejockey 

And where on the saddle to you to? And how do you define "top" if you're riding a "wave" saddle, vs a flat saddle? If you measure in line with the seat tube, then different seat tube angles will give different measurements, and that's ignoring bikes like the mid-90s Litespeed Ultimate where the seat tube is bent to allow shorter chainstays, so that the actual angle of the seat tube is quite different from the 73 degrees in the geometry charts. The same goes for some Cannondale frames where the seat tube is welded on forward of the center of the BB.

I ended up using a small board, which I place on the saddle so that the back end is at the rear of the saddle (which I define as the farthest back you can sit on it, and then there's an arrow marking the point on the bottom edge of the board that I measure to. On some wave saddles, the board is about 1/2 cm above the surface of the saddle at the point where I measure. On others, it's less and can even be touching. Using the board also helps level non-flat saddles better.

noglider 

@elcruxio, good information! Thank you. I feel further reinforced.

Sapper69

Aeons ago I was shown the old school method of setting the saddle height so you could pedal with your heels on the pedal spindles with full leg extension (no knee bend), to get a good start point for the right saddle height, i.e. when you then clip in (I still like my cleats set up with the balls of my feet directly over the spindles), you get about the right amount of knee bend. Usually this gets me to within around a cm of the correct saddle height by 'feel' and whenever I've had a professional fit on a given bike it hasn't needed more than about a cm or so of adjustment either way at most.

Others in this thread have also posted some good observations about variables such as different saddle positions or heights for climbing etc. One good tip I had a few years ago was that if you're doing a lot of climbing, it's worth tilting your saddle forward by a couple of degrees rather than leaving it in the traditional flat/horizontal position, which obviously has a flow on effrct to saddle height among other variables. So there's more to consider than coming up with one correct number for every bike you ride in every situation.

In any case, if you do a lot of riding, even at a recreational level, it's always worth getting a professional bike fit after you've set up a new bike, adjusted it to 'about right' then put a few miles on it doing the sort of riding you want to do over the long term. Imho, regardless which method you use for an initial fit and setup, you'll always benefit from seeing a good bike fitter.

13ollocks

All of these “formulas” are just starting points from which to embark on your individual tweaking journey. If your current 5 cm off the formula works for you, so be it.

Steel Charlie

I haven't been able to see any pro in the peloton that looks like they are full extending or reaching. But wadda they know?

​​​​​​What that might mean for anyone else I can't say. But 5cm is a WayBig dif from the "formulas" and I'm sure that if my saddles were that high I'd be on tip toes. But slammed stems and stratospheric saddles abound so collective biomechanical wisdom obviously doesn't have sway over style.
JMO of course. Ride whatever

slow rollin

Those formulas are a good start for sure. I have run higher on clipless pedals and find it's easier to get more hamstring activation(for me), while lower and the quad get's more use.
I do run a little lower when I ride flats since I don't always run the ball of my feet at the spindle. Recently my dad had a calf injury and runs flats with the seat a little lower so he can put the pedal mid foot/closer to the ankle. Luckily this means he can change the stress on said calf by adjusting the foot location mid ride if required.

Sy Reene

5cm sounds like a lot. However, just a little going up on the ball of my foot, it really doesn't feel like much at all to bring my heel off the ground by 5cms

Maybe difference between the setups below from 2 randomly found internet photos?

SoSmellyAir

Why fiddle with saddle position if it has been working fine for you with no issues for > 10 years?

A Shimano neural service bike, which is the prior version of Canyon Ultimate CF SLX, has a dropper post with 100 mm of adjustment.

A closer look at the Shimano neutral service bikes | GCN (globalcyclingnetwork.com)

So there should be a 27.2 mm dropper post that would work for you guys?

Trakhak

PeteHski

Yeah I could fit this to my own Canyon and would be tempted if I was doing a lot of technical alpine descents. But I also appreciate the built-in flex of modern carbon road seatposts, especially my Endurace post with its leaf spring design. I suspect the mtb dropper post used on these Shimano bikes is a bit harsh in comparison to my Endurace post. But it makes perfect sense for their purpose.

If they design a road-specific dropper post with say 50 mm travel which retains the comfort of a fixed carbon post then I’m interested. Having the ability to fine tune saddle height and drop it 50 mm for steep descents would be really useful.

Kontact 

The second photo looks normal - slightly low heel and there is still some knee bend.

The guy's position in the first photo is a soup sandwich in most respects. But your heels are up that high?

noglider 

I have a very quick rule of thumb for saddle height. I put my arm pit on the saddle and see if the tips of my fingers reach the crank spindle. But I think the ratio of arm length to leg length is high on my body compared with most people. My fingers need to be below the spindle for the height to be right for me. Anyone want to test this theory?

SoSmellyAir

I suspect that almost all other seat posts would be harsh compared to your VCLS 2.0 seat post. Certainly those that weigh the same or less.

Hmmm, a ThudBuster head on a dropper post sounds complicated and heavy.

Sy Reene

No, I don't think they are, but I've never videotaped a side-shot of myself. Though, eyeballing, that guy's heel I think is well over 5cm higher than the pedal, no? I think my knee bend though is closer to this photo. The first photo looks like very little knee bend to my eye.

crazyravr

@Sy Reene Thats not a good comparison IMHO. The first photo is an amatour cyclists tensed up and going in a straight line. The second photo is a pro coming into a left turn where he has most of the weight on the outside leg.

PeteHski

😂 That’s not what I had in mind. I was thinking that the dropper mechanism itself could have a limited degree of compliance from its set position. All the mtb dropper posts I’ve used have been super stiff, which is fine when you have 5” of rear suspension travel. But I want something a little more forgiving on an endurance road bike.

PeteHski

Yeah, I doubt he’s even pedalling on that second photo. Looks like he is freewheeling through a corner.

Steel Charlie

As I mentioned above, the riders in the peloton (men and women alike) all exhibit very similar foot position and leg extension. And you may notice that they are a wide variety of sizes. I suspect that there may be a reason for the similarities in saddle positioning.

elcruxio

Knee extension angles for optimal power have been pretty well established so you see a lot of those in the pro peloton.

Whether an amateur has the mobility to achieve said angles without restriction or issues is another discussion. I'd go as far as to state that many amateurs don't have the mobility to reach said angles with the reach and drop pros are riding.

But you really shouldn't go straighter knee than the established figures. I'd quote the actual angles if I remembered what they were or had the internet speed (I'm on a train) to look them up. I have a hazy recollection that it was around 25-35 (145-155) degrees but the range could be narrower than that.

Sy Reene

Found a Froome side photo