AdventureManCO 

So when I installed the spindle that came w/ the Italian cups, everything went together fine. I know the general consensus is using cages creates a right way/wrong way for the bearings to go, but if you look at the picture in post #46 of the BB parts, you can see the way that the cages are sitting in the cups - the bearing side is going inside the cup bearing surface, and the cage retainer side is facing out, to go against the spindle race. When I screwed everything together, it was loose until it wasn't, just like any other non-cartridge BB. It slowly lost play until it was tight. Backing off the NDS cup adjusted play, and bob's yer uncle. But it was a skosh too long, as evidenced by the picture. Everything else felt fine.

The longer spindle is 119mm, for a 70mm bb. I suppose I could measure the BB on this bike.

You might have to help me out here, as far as what makes it specific. If the taper is JIS, then what would be the specific difference, other than the spindle length and location of the races?

And here is why I ask - I tried the other spindle (113mm, 68) and it worked a charm, with the spacing being just right:




Spindle feels identical (as far as bearing contact surfaces go), its spins great and is nice and smooth.
But if there is something I don't know, now would be the time to figure it out, as we are getting to all the finer points of the build.

Thanks for everyone's thoughts!

AdventureManCO 

Jon, this is the type of post I was waiting for. We didn't get enough of these in the original Huffy thread. I expected way more pushback and was honestly a little disappointed I didn't get more. Thank you.

Also, are you the owner of Red Clover? If so, dude, you make killer chainring components! I could see me using one of these on the Huffente for some of these longer 'heroica' type rides that have lots of hills. I see you make one in 144bcd. Maybe I'll get one before Cino. I'm so glad you posted in this thread!

AdventureManCO 

Thank you for your generous offer! For now, I'm going to try swapping the wheelsets and see what that gets me. I have a pair of older non-Record high flange Campy wheels, with tubular rims, but I'm not sure it's an apples-to-apples comparison. The bearings on those, despite being non-Record, are still superb, but probably not as light as the low-flange Record set on the Huffente.

Given that both wheelsets should be 126mm and 6 speed, they should each be a direct swapout with each other, which will be great for A/B testing.

AdventureManCO 

Found some 1” spacers at the co-op for the Guac, and a front Shimano 600 brake for the Jungle Junker Allez.

Will be installing later tonight.

AdventureManCO 

Okay, didn't install anything last night, but, I did get progress done the night before that I hadn't posted, so here we go!





I did get the cables run and highs/lows adjusted, and everything seems to be functioning well, at least on the stand.

As it stands, we are weighing in at 23lbs even.

What's left is mainly just miniscule:

- install spacers
- file slot for binder bolt
- eventually get a better matching seat
- clean up the bar wrap (keeping, but needs tidying)
- maybe get some better tires (I did notice some slightly used GP4000 IIs at the co-op)
- clean chain

Overall, it's coming together well. Then, we'll take it for a spin and see how it does. Next after the Guac will be the Huffente. It's time to give it a little refreshing to bring it up to snuff w/ a new stem, new bar wrap, and maybe tweaking the fork a bit. Stay tuned!

Mad Honk 

Amco,
The Guac needs a BOC decal on it to make it complete. Smiles, CrapMaster Honk

Breadfan

I burnt my popcorn. I think it was the wrong type of wheel bearing grease I used.

AdventureManCO 

We are nearly there…



Sandals!




New spacer




Okay, see if you can spot the goof…







Whoopsee!




Turns out I need one of those end bits as the size of the hole through that cable stop doesn’t change size to retain the cable on its own.

Mad Honk 

Looks like it is time for me to send a cable ferrule for the frame to housing juncture. I have a few here, lemme know. Smiles, MH

AdventureManCO 

Very first time ride on the Guac tonight. About 35 degrees out.










Hmmm…

AdventureManCO 

Okay, after that ride, I gotta grab the Huffente. Just for the impression. Just to feel the difference, while it’s still fresh.








‘Worlds apart, yet not worlds different.’


More thought to come.

RiddleOfSteel

Back to back is always helpful for me, plus I get to ride bikes that I like. This is likely similar for you.

AdventureManCO 

It is! And I was just so curious. After I ride a good riding bicycle, I always have an inkling to grab the Huffente, to see how such a garbage bike compares, and to sort of 'pinch' myself, while asking 'Is this thing really as good as I think it is? Or am I just making things up?'

Okay, so on to some impressions.

First of all, this group came off of the Trek 560, so it was interesting to see how that exact same group of components would feel, with a simple frame change. It was like someone lifted a blanket off of the 560 to reveal some characteristics that maybe should have been there with the 560. The 560 I would describe as 'stiff' and 'planted', in that it felt glued to the road, in both a good and bad way. Good, because it felt secure, but bad in that it felt like in some ways the tires really were glued to the road, and not travel as fast as it should have. The Guac didn't have any of that. Also, the 560 had a bit of a harsh ride - you felt the road up through the seat tube. The Guac, even w/ rock hard tires, did great with road vibrations. So, it was a solid win. I do think the 560 works awesome for people that like that style of ride, and part of it was likely due to the fact that the 560 was a little small for me.

Between the Huffente and the Guac, let's get right now to business.

The Guac is lighter than the Huffente, and as such, it has a lighter feel. That is undoubtedly true. The Guac had better acceleration, and a lighter feel when flicking it around. It felt exactly like you would want a great, solid 1980s road bike to feel - in fit, geometry, neutral handling, decent responsiveness, etc. Compared to the Columbus SL Trek 950 I had, this one didn't have as much 'springiness' in the ride, but did have it, and considering the Huffente doesn't really have any, it is noticeable. I like that ride characteristic, as long as it doesn't cross the line over into 'whippiness' or becoming 'noodly'.

When I got on the Huffy, you notice the awkwardness when you first get going - mainly due to the super tiny ultralight alloy/ti pedals I used for it, and the way the geometry and fit (short stem) combines to feel quite different than most bicycles you'll ride. That said, when you get going, you feel like your riding on an absolute cloud. Just lovely, lovely, lovely. And absolutely silent - dead silent, which is remarkable for getting into your thoughts without distraction. Getting there is a little ugly, lol, but once you are there it is sublime. It is very smooth and comfortable, moreso than the Guac, but the Guac feels a bit more flexible and responsive.

I will admit that the Huffente feels more like you are riding 'on it', but not in a bad way. Its like fluffy marshmallow! It is quite pleasing, you just feel like you can't interact with it as much, like you cannot influence it quite the same. The Guac feels more like you are riding 'with it' as a more interactive experience, a harder edge. What will be interesting to see is just how much of these ride characteristics change when I swap wheelsets and see how each bike responds to the change.

The Huffente is like an older Cadillac or Benz, like a floating boat, smooth but not zippy, where as the Guac is more like an Eclipse - fast and more agile, more tactile and less cushy. The Huffente feels less pleasing to get up to speed, but once you are there, you just want to stay there, and not wander off anywhere else, like sinking into a Lay-Z-boy. The Guac is more pleasing throughout all registers of speed, but doesn't quite have the same 'whoa' experience cruising at speed. Almost as if you could get fatigue from being more 'on point' all the time, if that makes sense.

Now, those characteristics, while sounding more glaring, are actually much less pronounced than I'm making them out to be. While the above descriptors make the Huffente sound like a goofy slug when you first start pedaling, it feels quicker out of the gate than just just about every other bike I have, save for the Ironman (about equal), this Guac, and the Trek 600 (these are really similar, but I might give the nod to the 600). The Trek 600 and the Guac feel remarkably similar, but it could be that both are setup with 105, both have a similar frame size, and setup. They both feel great. It is definitely quicker than any of my French bikes, and feels on par or just a hair more zippy getting going than the Trek 930 I recently picked up, but that bike is poorly set up so hoping that changes for the better.

Now, I do think that we can influence the feel of the Huffente a bit to get closer to some of the desirable traits of the Guac. The biggest thing, as a previous poster mentioned, is stem length. I rocked what I got (the Jun), but I have seen the light, and we'll play around with various stem lengths. I'm curious to see how a 90, 100, or even 110mm stem influence the ride. The sweet spot might be 100mm. The new stem I have that will fit the Huffente is either an 80mm or 90mm. That will make the biggest difference. Apart from that, wider pedals on the Huffente, or these same smaller pedals on the Guac, will help the bikes feel far more similar. I'm also interested to take some measurements of the Guac (it does fit me really well) and see about matching those on the Huffente, primarily with the seat placement and matching handlebar reach.

So which 'initial' impression stands out to me more? If I'm being completely honest: the Guac, upon first ride, was the slightly (and I do mean slightly) better rider, but was basically operating at expectations, so my impression was 'okay, okay'. The first time I got on the Huffente (in it's changed form), it was a revelation. It was so wildly different from the bike I had previously experienced, that I started laughing as I rode it around, just completely bewildered at how it had changed. So it's a +1 for the Huffy for the biggest change, AND a +1 for the Guac for simply being a great rider.

Lots more to come - cockpit changes, fork changes, wheel swaps, oh my!


My final thought is this: If the Guac is a good or decent representation of what an 'Italian' lugged steel road bike is supposed to be, then virtually everyone isn't giving enough credit to what bikes like Huffys and others like them are capable of. The difference between the two just isn't that extreme. I still don't feel outgunned when riding the Huffente, but think it would be a more equal match with a few appreciable changes. Those changes are coming.

RiddleOfSteel

@AdventureManCO this is the kind of review I dig! [I analyze similarly--takes one to know one?]

I had a 1988 560 with True Temper (pre wheelbarrow) RC1 tubing and even in 25.5" form it was a bit stiff, at least to my less-educated self. Vuelta Corsa Lite wheels didn't make the most comfortable of rides, and I bet if I went with any iconic Mavic rim for any amount of time, I would have gathered better info. I do miss--now, because I am just that bit older--having a full 1050-era (baby Dura-Ace) 105 groupset to polish and experience. Fortunately for me, I just picked up an '83 560 for a nicely modest sum. 1.75 hour drive with the seller telling me it's the full 25.5", and me believing it enough because I've looooong wanted an '83 560 with the near-black metallic + red color combo. The part of me that knows better and knows Trek's 25.5" sizing shenanigans told me that it wasn't the full meal deal as it wasn't a 7xx or 9xx bike. Responsible Riddle was right, ultimately, but still allowed Passionate Riddle to have this dance because it's a freaking '83 560 and facts must be known. Thankfully, meeting my Catalog Hero has been wonderful--I love the bike!

Glad the Guacamole is good, and that the Hufflepuff continues to surprise and delight with the best of them. Components matter! But also, making an AMC Ambassador dance can yield fun results.

nomadmax 

It's "Gerch".

smd4

Sounds like most of the ride quality differed because of the more laid-back geometry of the Huffente, which would be expected to be more "Lazy-boy" compared to the race geometry of the Gerch. (Guac? Never heard that nickname before either). In the mid-1980s, when I first got into bikes, I toyed with trying to update my old Free Spirit but couldn't figure out what parts I could replace with bike-shop parts!

Great review!

Trueblood

Are those authentic stamped rear dropouts on the Huffente?

AdventureManCO 

They are authentic!




kudos if you get this meme

AdventureManCO 

When I first got it, the first thought it my head was 'Guerciotti...hmm, sounds like guacamole' and for me it stuck. Plus, I remember seeing a Guerciotti that had a really wild greenish paint job, so that further reinforced it. Gerch just doesn't roll of the tongue the same way.

I will bust out my digital angle finder and compare some angles. Head tubes and seat tubes. Also, we are going to try to get the Huffente closer, as least with the triangular positioning between the cranks, the seat, and the handlebar location. I do really enjoy how the Guac felt, its a good position for me. With the stem length on the Huffy being so short, you don't really have the ability to grab those bars and wring it out in the same manner.

Fist thing we are going to do is get some numbers between these bikes. Do some research and planning. Its the ghettofied, extended, and warped version of the 'Huffy Technical Development' center where in an alternative universe, instead of getting the genius of Mike Melton, you unfortunately get me

AdventureManCO 

I had an epiphany today.

The cranks on the Guac are 170mm. The cranks on the Huffente are 165mm. I'm betting that is also contributing to how the bike feels on acceleration as well.

Time to get a' measurin'!

icemilkcoffee 

I agree with smd4. I think the longer chain stay and relaxed head angle account for the Cadillac vs sports car feels.

AdventureManCO 

I've continued reflecting on the difference between these two bikes. I've appreciated your thoughts and I do think they are spot on. Some of these ride differences are inherent in the dna of each bike - those longer chainstays and slack angles as a few of you have brought up. At least with the frame, those aren't going to change. And even if I took it to the extreme, and started cutting tubing, and shortening things, or tightening things up, geometry-wise, it wouldn't make sense because it really wouldn't be a 'Huffy' anymore as God intended. It certainly wouldn't be replicable by most out there interested in dabbling their feet in the waters with a similar project (the horror!). It definitely wouldn't make sense from a 'I value the concept of a purpose in life' type of perspective.

This whole exercise wouldn't amount to a hill of beans if objectivity went out the window. It is telling that riding the Guac, and then the Huffy, inspires me to want to work on the Huffy to make it better, instead of the other way around, right? I've become an appreciator of certain US-made Huffys because they present a fun challenge to work on and improve, and the improvements can be astounding. The juice is worth the squeeze - just have your meds ready. But by all accounts, and mine too, the Guac is a better bike because that is what it was always supposed to be. I'm not going to pretend that the Huffy is a miracle machine simply because I wasted almost half a year throwing lipstick on a pig. I also recognize its probably important for people to hear me say that. I mean, I'm not stupid (well, other than wasting almost half a year throwing lipstick on a pig) but I know what great bikes can feel like and ride like. I've got a lot of 531 bikes in the garage, as well as a few Columbus SL/SLX rides as well. It's not a case of plain ignorance. I won't count myself among any sort of elite group that can discern all those diminishing returns, that last 2%. But I certainly can feel the difference between these tube sets! Yet, what has surprised me with this whole wild experiment is just how great you can get a frame, even a Huffy frame, but really any frame - riding great if thoughtfully and patiently built and/or modified to meet new goals. One has to remember that whatever pricepoint they build the bike to, the spec'd the components too as well.

GeezyRider 

When you swap wheelsets and pedals for the A to B comparison, would it make sense to swap saddles too? Or is nothing supposed to make sense?

AdventureManCO 

Okay! Another day, another ride comparison! #2!


We just got back from a little trip, and I've been off a bike for 3-4 days, and been going a little crazy (well, that's been happening for some time now). Wife suggested I go for a ride, so let's do it! Instead of riding one bike for 5-10 miles, I tend to jump around a bit, just for fun. Here is what I rode, and in what order:

1. '79 Trek 930
2. '83 Trek 600
3. '80 Peugeot PXN-10
4. '68 Peugeot PX-10
5. Guerciotti ('The Guac')
6. Huffente

I usually finish these sorts of rides w/ the Huffente, as it is fun to ride all these different bikes, and then hop on the 'H' bike and see if it is really still just all in my head.

I came away surprised, both in some good ways and some bad. There were a few bikes that really stood out. And there were a few that faded back to the background.

Undoubtedly, the 3 nicest riding bikes I have are the Guerciotti, the Huffente, and the PX-10. And each one is so wildly different, it is hard to put one over the other - I'll try to describe it better below.

But first, some disappointments.

The Trek 930 was probably the most surprising bike to ride, because it was also the biggest disappointment, compared to the other bikes I rode today, due its overwhelming 'meh' factor. Just nothing about the bike stood out, which is mega surprising to me, given that it is Columbus SL, silver brazed, just a really nice frame. Now, I want to love this bike so much because it is B-E-A-U-T-I-F-U-L, in what I believe to be the original Imron Light Green paint. Just a super classy bike, which is why the ride was such a bummer. HOWEVER, the bike is a complete hodge-dodge of components, and these bikes originally came with Campy Nuovo Record, so right now the bike is IMPURE and will need rectifying before a final judgement can be made. I've told myself that once it is built up with all NR, we can re-evaluate.

The other bike that was a disappointment was the PXN-10, but I knew this going in. For some reason it just sort of rides like a tub (no, not a tubular). Now I know, most of you will point to the wheels/tires, but at one point I did switch out the wheelset with the Campy Record wheels and tubulars on the Huffente, just to see how much of a difference it would be. It didn't change much. I'm chalking it up to it being a bit small for me, so it feels slightly cramped. It is comfortable though, besides the cramp-ness.

In previous rides, the Trek 600 has scored highly, and on it's own, it certainly does. I would choose it WAY before the 930. Interestingly, the 'Guac' and the Trek 600 probably have the most similar ride, comparing bike-to-bike. The Guac just has that little bit 'extra' that the Trek doesn't, which is not a dig on the Trek at all. I would even call it preferential. The Guac's handling and springiness came alive and made the ride really fun, whereas the Trek is just such a well behaved ride, but with a light sportiness to it as well - the ride of the Trek really packs a 1-2 punch with its road manners AND light feeling ride.

Now, the top 3 - the PX-10, the Guac, and the Huffente. I have no idea how to exactly compare these, because they are wildly different. I'll start with the PX-10.

The PX-10 takes me back. It was one of the first real vintage road bikes I ever got my hands on, in my size. Previously, I had a Nishiki Prestige, a Fuji S10-S, a PX-10 that was 64cm (WAY too big for me, but I rode it!), and then this bike. I remember the day I picked it up from the co-op. I also remember leaving it to hang for a while since I came down with the flu and then our dog died (Christmas 2019). That sucked, but eventually I got to coming back to this one to give my mind something to focus on, and remember the first ride I took on it, in 20 degree weather. The ride was a revelation. I commuted on this bike for a long time, and then got other rides and one thing leads to another, and hadn't ridden it in a long time. The best way I can describe riding this bike is that it's like driving a vintage Porsche. It's not the fastest, but will put a huge smile on your face when your start pushing the pedals because it wants to go fast. It doesn't have the laser precision of a modern road bike, but is is responsive and talks back as you ride it. You feel little bumps and irregularities in the road, but not in a bad way. Shifting! Wow! Shifting is notchy and super tactile. But it is also extremely authoritative and mechanical, in a way you look forward to. You come off this one like you just had an experience. I love that. What a great bike.

The Guac, after riding all the others, seems to be the bike that everyone wants a bike to be. It is light, nimble, quick, quick handling (but not nervous feeling), decently comfortable, and 'springy'. It's got that spring that I think a good Columbus frame should have. I can only imagine what this would be like as a lighter Columbus tube set (frame weighs about 2015g). I do think the components are definitely holding it back just a bit, but at the same time, the ride is so good as it sits - and that is with clinchers. The 105 group is really nice, but I get to thinking how much nicer this ride might become were it to go on a bit of a diet. Some steel on this bike that could be alloy. 105 to Dura Ace would be a good move on this one.

And that brings us to, of course...The Huffente. It was the last bike I rode, as I usually do. This time I'm actively looking for faults. Unbeknownst to you all, I had a bit of a 'geometry party' and invited the Guac and Huffente. Since the Guac had that 'all rounder' great feel to it, I wanted to see how far the Huffente deviated. In some ways, quite a bit. But we made some tweaks, I learned a thing or two, and here we are. More changes are to come, but the one thing I did change was to swap out the seat for a different Brooks that has a much longer rail to get the seat farther forward. Due to the slack angles, the seat tube puts the seat pretty far behind the cranks. You can't quite make up for it with just a zero setback seatpost, but I got pretty close with this other seat. I haven't done anything with the bars yet, but that is coming.

Upon first riding it - the first big thing I notice after changing the seat and moving it forward - the seat is FAR too low! I end up raising it around 1/2"-3/4" overall from where it was, which is a huge adjustment, but with the seat forward and raised, I can now actually put power to the pedals! The next thing I notice is the cranks. I can start to feel what a difference the 165mm length is making. I do actually have a set of 170 NR cranks, that I will be switching out, but eventually I think I'll trade someone these for a pair of 170s. Once I get the seat raised, move past the pedaling, I can imagine what the bars would feel like set a bit more forward, which is going to be another great change. But then, that 'riding on a cloud' thing starts happening again. Whoa. It feels fantastic. WAY different than the Guac. But wonderful, just the same. Could ride it all day. The feel I get from riding this one more than makes up its lack of 'sprite' that the Guac has in spades, and that is even with a less-than-ideal setup, specifically regarding the cranks and the stem. Folks, this is the real deal. If it sucked, you would know. I have no ego around this bike. I know that I have hundreds of hours into this thing, making all this Campy stuff work. Tons of frustration and roadblocks, tons of failure and some good wins. If it is a crappy boat anchor, then its a crappy boat anchor, and I'd make sure so nobody thinks twice about making the same mistake. Don't get me wrong, I know nobody else is thinking about doing what I did. But it worked. I love riding this thing.

The cranks are too short. The stem is too short. I want to try 40cm bars instead of 38cm. I want to make an extra alloy cage around the pedals because they provide such a small landing for your feet compared to a 'normal, non-weight weenie' version.

I'm not going to say that it's better than the Guac. But I'm sure not going to say that I like riding the Guac more, either. If anything, I'm super excited to start making these little changes here and there that I think will end up having a positive effect on the ride, further enhancing it.

The Guac provides the great ride everyone would expect a great rider to have. With more svelte components, I believe its strengths will be even easier to enjoy. The Huffente is something different. It doesn't have the ride people expect, because nobody knows what to expect with this thing (other than = garbage) but it is a totally unique experience. It's like the frame 'gets out of the way' and you get to taste the components. The Guac frame adds color (a good color) to the riding experience, a dynamic in addition to the components, and the net result is what we like to think a good riding bike should be - stiff yet compliant, springy but precise. The color it adds is a good one. The Huffy frame nearly removes itself from the equation, and instead just adds this undertone of smoothness. I don't know how else to describe it. That's why I think component changes on this bike make such a wild difference. You are not getting the same frame dynamics as what the Guac, with it's Columbus tubing, imparts to the ride. It just...disappears. That's why these bikes are so hard to compare!

As we currently stand:

PNX-10 (56cm) < PXN-10 (54cm) < Trek 560 < Trek 930 < Raleigh Super Course < Trek 600 < Huffente < PX-10 < Guac

I put the Guac in the #1 spot because of the changes necessary to bring the Huffente up to the level it should be at. Because those changes are not yet in place, we have to be fair about our rankings. Also, because the PX-10 is a complete package, I'm going to rank that slightly above the Huffente for the meantime, but I fully expect the Huffente to equal or best it when some of these other changes are finally made.

AdventureManCO 

Whether I swapped pedals and saddles and or not, none of it makes sense anyway. I'm comparing a dumpster-diving throwaway special to some of the most well-loved bikes of the C&V community. I just didn't expect it to get this good.

Regarding the saddle, I won't be able to move saddles, because I specifically need a longer railed saddle on the Huffente so that I can get the forward reach I need to compensate for a more slack seat tube. I'm not too worried about seats. I'm not too worried about the pedals either. Both have cages. If anything the Huffente's current pedals are a detriment to it, compared to the Guac, and because it is the underdog and gets no favors, the pedals will stay. We will absolutely switch wheels and see how both rides change.