Why are Modern Bikes So Expensive?
#151
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I took an engineering class in carbon fiber back in the early '80s, because I wanted to make carbon frames. One thing that quickly became obvious is that if you wanted to make a carbon frame that was as strong as a steel frame in every possible loading condition, it was going to weigh about the same as a steel frame. The professor told us as much, and made us write a computer program to test how different layups would respond to loadings. I regret that I let a professor discourage me from working on carbon bike frames back then, although I probably didn't have the money to make a good try. It wasn't that long ago that I finally recycled the punch card deck with my program on it, it was about 3" thick. I wish I had it read into a more usable digital form before getting rid of it.
My impression is that fiber has gotten a lot stronger since that time, or at least the carbon that normal people could get their hands on back then. There is still some optimization going on to make for decent weight savings, but bike designers have had many decades of practice since then.
My impression is that fiber has gotten a lot stronger since that time, or at least the carbon that normal people could get their hands on back then. There is still some optimization going on to make for decent weight savings, but bike designers have had many decades of practice since then.
was this in the happy valley ?
#152
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I wouldn't have wanted to work in the bike industry over the last couple of years, there have been massive challenges. I have no idea if the current pricing is realistic or not, but consumer demand is still there, I think. High end bikes still seem to sell okay. The low end isn't doing so well. Much of the middle has disappeared for the most part.
Note: These ^^^ are uneducated guesses/generalizations.
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#153
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What he actually said is, "I could probably do it, but you couldn't." I forget which Va Tech professor told me that. They hired a carbon specialist after I took the course, but I don't think it was him.
Since I was an experienced framebuilder, and he wasn't, I might have had a better chance. He probably wouldn't have been able to build a usable frame. It's not like it was easy to learn about framebuilding in the early '80s. We might have been able to collaborate and be successful. In the end, it's not like it's that difficult.
Since I was an experienced framebuilder, and he wasn't, I might have had a better chance. He probably wouldn't have been able to build a usable frame. It's not like it was easy to learn about framebuilding in the early '80s. We might have been able to collaborate and be successful. In the end, it's not like it's that difficult.
#154
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Here are a couple mainstream examples of what I'd rate as equivalent. Same manufacturer, model and group set. 2024 Ultegra is Di2 vs non-Di2, but even so, that one is 86% more expensive or nearly 3 times inflation.
2014 S-Works Tarmac Dura Ace Di2 $8,500 Frameset: $3,500
2024 S-Works Tarmac Dura Ace Di2 $14,000 Frameset: $5,500
2014 Trek Domane 5.2 Ultegra $3,670 Frameset: $1,550
2024 Trek Domane SL7 Ultegra $6,830 Frameset: $2,500
2014 S-Works Tarmac Dura Ace Di2 $8,500 Frameset: $3,500
2024 S-Works Tarmac Dura Ace Di2 $14,000 Frameset: $5,500
2014 Trek Domane 5.2 Ultegra $3,670 Frameset: $1,550
2024 Trek Domane SL7 Ultegra $6,830 Frameset: $2,500
Compare this with a 1970 Cinelli SC and a 1980 Cinelli SC, and the two bikes are almost identical.
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#155
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Over the past decade, the S-Works Tarmac has made significant progress in terms of design and features. In fact, the current version is vastly different from its earlier counterparts, with a lighter frame that weighs 250 grams less, a completely new design and layup, significantly improved aerodynamics, internal wiring including cockpit, 12-speed wireless with wider gearing range, tubeless tires, and disc brakes, among other features. So other than the name, there is no real comparison between a 2014 and 2024 S Works Tarmac.
Compare this with a 1970 Cinelli SC and a 1980 Cinelli SC, and the two bikes are almost identical.
Compare this with a 1970 Cinelli SC and a 1980 Cinelli SC, and the two bikes are almost identical.
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Here is what Pete said:
If you want to argue with his statement, you might first need to simply comprehend it. He did not say what you seem to think he said. Reading is fundamental.
Based on my experience working for decades in high tech engineering R&D, that statement in bold is almost certainly untrue. I would bet good money that the R&D resources at a leading bike manufacturer are way more expensive than they were 30 years ago, both in labour (engineers) and equipment.
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#157
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This thread has more straw men than a scarecrow convention.
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#158
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...speaking of which.
Why anyone would expect Cinelli (as a company) to have much in the way of an R+D department is beyond my comprehension. Sure they were expensive, but they were still small, limited in numbers of production, and generally made by a company that was primarily earning money by selling components like stems, bars, and saddles. They did change out the stem designs periodically, often producing a stem that worked less well than their original 1A.
Here's the Cinelli timeline. 1970-1980 were not especially innovative years. The steel frame tech was a relatively mature one by then. As technologies mature, that happens. They did do a time trial funny bike in 1974, but the Cinelli SC was a boutique product that was selling well in small numbers. Why change it ? Columbo (of Columbus tubing) bought into the company in 1978. Columbus tubing was in constant development mode for new and different frame tubing sets.
Over the past decade, the S-Works Tarmac has made significant progress in terms of design and features. In fact, the current version is vastly different from its earlier counterparts, with a lighter frame that weighs 250 grams less, a completely new design and layup, significantly improved aerodynamics, internal wiring including cockpit, 12-speed wireless with wider gearing range, tubeless tires, and disc brakes, among other features. So other than the name, there is no real comparison between a 2014 and 2024 S Works Tarmac.
Compare this with a 1970 Cinelli SC and a 1980 Cinelli SC, and the two bikes are almost identical.
Compare this with a 1970 Cinelli SC and a 1980 Cinelli SC, and the two bikes are almost identical.
Here's the Cinelli timeline. 1970-1980 were not especially innovative years. The steel frame tech was a relatively mature one by then. As technologies mature, that happens. They did do a time trial funny bike in 1974, but the Cinelli SC was a boutique product that was selling well in small numbers. Why change it ? Columbo (of Columbus tubing) bought into the company in 1978. Columbus tubing was in constant development mode for new and different frame tubing sets.
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...speaking of which.
Why anyone would expect Cinelli (as a company) to have much in the way of an R+D department is beyond my comprehension. Sure they were expensive, but they were still small, limited in numbers of production, and generally made by a company that was primarily earning money by selling components like stems, bars, and saddles. They did change out the stem designs periodically, often producing a stem that worked less well than their original 1A.
Here's the Cinelli timeline. 1970-1980 were not especially innovative years. The steel frame tech was a relatively mature one by then. As technologies mature, that happens. They did do a time trial funny bike in 1974, but the Cinelli SC was a boutique product that was selling well in small numbers. Why change it ? Columbo (of Columbus tubing) bought into the company in 1978. Columbus tubing was in constant development mode for new and different frame tubing sets.
Why anyone would expect Cinelli (as a company) to have much in the way of an R+D department is beyond my comprehension. Sure they were expensive, but they were still small, limited in numbers of production, and generally made by a company that was primarily earning money by selling components like stems, bars, and saddles. They did change out the stem designs periodically, often producing a stem that worked less well than their original 1A.
Here's the Cinelli timeline. 1970-1980 were not especially innovative years. The steel frame tech was a relatively mature one by then. As technologies mature, that happens. They did do a time trial funny bike in 1974, but the Cinelli SC was a boutique product that was selling well in small numbers. Why change it ? Columbo (of Columbus tubing) bought into the company in 1978. Columbus tubing was in constant development mode for new and different frame tubing sets.
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#160
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Over the past decade, the S-Works Tarmac has made significant progress in terms of design and features. In fact, the current version is vastly different from its earlier counterparts, with a lighter frame that weighs 250 grams less, a completely new design and layup, significantly improved aerodynamics, internal wiring including cockpit, 12-speed wireless with wider gearing range, tubeless tires, and disc brakes, among other features. So other than the name, there is no real comparison between a 2014 and 2024 S Works Tarmac.
Compare this with a 1970 Cinelli SC and a 1980 Cinelli SC, and the two bikes are almost identical.
Compare this with a 1970 Cinelli SC and a 1980 Cinelli SC, and the two bikes are almost identical.
- The frame from what I can see is 200 grams lighter, but the complete bike is heavier.
- Fact 12r carbon vs Fact 11r carbon for 10 years of R&D… not really impressive or major; mostly marketing.
- Incrementally improved aerodynamic at pro tour speeds which means minuscule for everyone else, despite marketing hype.
- Internal routing for the cockpit (SL4 had internal cables)is again an aero advantage for pros, not much elsewhere and not mind-blowing R&D.
- 12 speed vs 11 speed is the same incremental gain over a decade that’s been happening for ages, no great R&D for that.
- Wireless isn’t something the bike industry developed. They just finally are using current, cheap technology for shifting.
- Tubeless tires are a questionable advantage for road bikes, and again it’s long existing tech finally being used in bikes.
- Disc brakes are an excellent addition but the refinement is not quite there which leads me to question to amount and quality of R&D performed.
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People keep mentioning cell phones as an example of things getting relatively cheaper with increasing tech. Well that tends to happen when sales volume grows exponentially. This doesn't apply with bicycles. They get more sophisticated, but also more expensive at the top end.
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#162
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Why are you punching yourself in the face? HELLO???
End of story.
Last edited by Yan; 03-21-24 at 04:09 PM.
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PeteHski and genejockey : you guys are arguing with posters who can't (or won't) comprehend your rather simple statements or are deliberately concocting straw man arguments -- probably the former, since a child could come up with better straw man arguments than the ones they are offering.
At any rate, you should quit while you are behind. With some of these folks, you're never gonna get through. Just state your case and move on. I'm speaking from experience.
That's just my $.04. (That's $.02, adjusted for inflation.)
At any rate, you should quit while you are behind. With some of these folks, you're never gonna get through. Just state your case and move on. I'm speaking from experience.
That's just my $.04. (That's $.02, adjusted for inflation.)
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#165
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The first statement is totally aligned with the second. Let me restate, since reading comprehension doesn't seem to be your strong suit: Ignoring technological improvements and simply comparing prices is ludicrous, but EVEN IF YOU DO, cell phones are cheaper now than 35 years ago.
Oh, so you admit that what bikes "SHOULD" cost is not what they do cost. Well that was my point. Thank you for agreeing with me.
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#166
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#168
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So under your logic, if phones have gotten cheaper as they have advanced, then why have bikes gone the other way as they have advanced?
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#171
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#174
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