Nandrolone
#51
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 23,208
Mentioned: 89 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18883 Post(s)
Liked 10,646 Times
in
6,054 Posts
I can't believe on a bike forum so many people are against sanctioning an athlete who was caught with a banned performance enhancing chemical in her blood. I think some folks in here are losing sight of the fact that it isn't just about this poor runner, it's everyone who was competing against her.
Likes For Seattle Forrest:
#52
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Posts: 27,547
Mentioned: 217 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18377 Post(s)
Liked 4,512 Times
in
3,354 Posts
Alberto Contador, on the other hand, was banned for trace amounts of a synthetic (not naturally occurring drug, I think).
Contador's urine apparently also contained plasticizers. Not illegal per-se, but indicative that he may have been injecting banked blood (which could have been tainted).
Both cyclists were riding again within a year.
I'm just not convinced there is enough data that has been published that Shelby Houlihan actually intended to dose herself.
#53
Senior Member
You realize CAS has not published their decision? All we've heard has come from Houlihan herself.The fact that there's any doubt when all we've heard is her side speaks volumes.
Likes For asgelle:
#54
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Posts: 27,547
Mentioned: 217 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18377 Post(s)
Liked 4,512 Times
in
3,354 Posts
They have knocked her out of the 2021 Olympics. And, who knows if she'll be competitive for the 2024 Olympics.
We do have the 2022 World Athletics Championships coming to Eugene Oregon next year. Perhaps she'll be competing.
We do have the 2022 World Athletics Championships coming to Eugene Oregon next year. Perhaps she'll be competing.
#55
Senior Member
I have a better chance of competing than she does and I'm a 60+ male with no running experience. She's been banned for four years by CAS. There's no higher court to hear an appeal.
#56
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Posts: 27,547
Mentioned: 217 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18377 Post(s)
Liked 4,512 Times
in
3,354 Posts
I thought you just said the decision hasn't been published... or have they made up their mind, but not published it???
Or is this just a behind closed door decision made by a bunch of old codgers?
#57
Senior Member
The sentence has been released, 4 years suspension, but the decision which cites the evidence from both sides and how it was evaluated, and the reasoning behind the panel’s decision has not. This is not unusual. There is typically a delay between the sentence and the decision. And if you think CAS panelists are a bunch of old codgers, you should take a look at their CVs.
Last edited by asgelle; 06-26-21 at 04:02 PM.
#58
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 23,208
Mentioned: 89 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18883 Post(s)
Liked 10,646 Times
in
6,054 Posts
Do they confiscate your bikes if you get caught doping?
#59
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Posts: 27,547
Mentioned: 217 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18377 Post(s)
Liked 4,512 Times
in
3,354 Posts
#60
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,794
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1027 Post(s)
Liked 326 Times
in
204 Posts
I don't believe bodybuilding is regulated very much. Nor is the Actor's guild.
I didn't realize powerlifting has both doping and non-doping classes. but I can imagine the crossover.
And, of course, the risk in powerlifting is that a person could say dope from age 10 to age 25 while staying out of the spotlight. Then take a year or so to clean out the system and join the international spotlight.
I didn't realize powerlifting has both doping and non-doping classes. but I can imagine the crossover.
And, of course, the risk in powerlifting is that a person could say dope from age 10 to age 25 while staying out of the spotlight. Then take a year or so to clean out the system and join the international spotlight.
Powerlifting really doesn't have a "spotlight". It is a very small, very niche sport. (That's part of what makes cheating in it so depressing... there's no real money to be made of fame to be had, yet people still cheat.) I've posted several of my wife's (and my) contests on youtube. The one with, by far, the most views is one that happened at a bodybuilding expo.
Weightlifting is a bit different because it is an Olympic sport, so strategies like this have more of a benefit.
#61
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: New England
Posts: 85
Bikes: Giant Defy Advanced 2, S-Works Camber, Eddy Merckx Ti-Ax
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times
in
2 Posts
Contador claimed tainted meat as well after he tested positive for clenbuterol. But the positive test was very, very, very likely because he used it to help keep or get the last bits of weight off in the weeks leading up to the Tour. He also likely assumed he would take very little out of competition he wouldn't get caught, and didn't realize how sophisticated the testing was becoming.
Froome tested positive for salbutamol, which is an asthma drug he has a TUE for, but the amount he had in his body was not realistically possible just by using his inhaler an extra time (or two) like he claimed. It's very likely he was on a very refined micro-dosing program, including ingesting this, and got caught, in a similar way Contador (and others) have. His and Sky's attorney's buried anti-doping authorities in a mountain of legal paperwork, which intimidated the UCI, who was already very worried about the reputation of the sport taking yet another hit, and losing millions of dollars, and allowed him to skate.
Landis has stated that he didn't actually use testosterone before his epic Tour stage, but it was really blood boosters. He did admit to using testosterone before, though not much, and it was speculated that the + test came from re-infused blood, which had been drawn from a time when he was on testosterone. Floyd had no thoughts on this. FWIT, I generally take Floyd at his word.
By far, BY FAR, doping tests yield false negatives, much, much, much more than false positives, which is how it should be. So if you think an athlete is clean because they were never caught, you may, or may not be deluding yourself, but it's better to give them the benefit of the doubt and have a system that does the same. If you think an athlete that tests positive is actually clean due to flawed testing, it's highly, highly unlikely. Possible? Of course, anything's possible. But likely? Not even close.
Froome tested positive for salbutamol, which is an asthma drug he has a TUE for, but the amount he had in his body was not realistically possible just by using his inhaler an extra time (or two) like he claimed. It's very likely he was on a very refined micro-dosing program, including ingesting this, and got caught, in a similar way Contador (and others) have. His and Sky's attorney's buried anti-doping authorities in a mountain of legal paperwork, which intimidated the UCI, who was already very worried about the reputation of the sport taking yet another hit, and losing millions of dollars, and allowed him to skate.
Landis has stated that he didn't actually use testosterone before his epic Tour stage, but it was really blood boosters. He did admit to using testosterone before, though not much, and it was speculated that the + test came from re-infused blood, which had been drawn from a time when he was on testosterone. Floyd had no thoughts on this. FWIT, I generally take Floyd at his word.
By far, BY FAR, doping tests yield false negatives, much, much, much more than false positives, which is how it should be. So if you think an athlete is clean because they were never caught, you may, or may not be deluding yourself, but it's better to give them the benefit of the doubt and have a system that does the same. If you think an athlete that tests positive is actually clean due to flawed testing, it's highly, highly unlikely. Possible? Of course, anything's possible. But likely? Not even close.
Likes For Rider51:
#62
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlantic Beach Florida
Posts: 1,945
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3777 Post(s)
Liked 1,047 Times
in
791 Posts
Same topic, different drug. I never agreed with punishing athletes for marijuana in their system and don't think it should even be tested for, especially nowadays, when it's legal in many states. I especially hate the statement many have been making after Sha'Carri Richardson failed her test, saying, Rules are Rules. As if rules are beyond reproach. This rule needs to go.
#63
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,794
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1027 Post(s)
Liked 326 Times
in
204 Posts
Same topic, different drug. I never agreed with punishing athletes for marijuana in their system and don't think it should even be tested for, especially nowadays, when it's legal in many states. I especially hate the statement many have been making after Sha'Carri Richardson failed her test, saying, Rules are Rules. As if rules are beyond reproach. This rule needs to go.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_cannabis
But, since it is currently a rule, it has to be enforced. Rules are rules. If you choose to participate in international sports, you have to accept the rules that come with it.
#66
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,794
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1027 Post(s)
Liked 326 Times
in
204 Posts
#67
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 23,208
Mentioned: 89 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18883 Post(s)
Liked 10,646 Times
in
6,054 Posts
I don't think marijuana is a performance enhancing drug. I understand that it can improve pain and boredom tolerance in some people which can help in endurance events. Seems like a different ballpark. Ibuprofen can make my foot hurt less, I wouldn't call that a performance enhancing drug.
#68
Me duelen las nalgas
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Texas
Posts: 13,513
Bikes: Centurion Ironman, Trek 5900, Univega Via Carisma, Globe Carmel
Mentioned: 199 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4560 Post(s)
Liked 2,802 Times
in
1,800 Posts
Nah, cannabis in any form -- recreational, medicinal, CBD, THC, etc. -- isn't a PED in any way that I can see. Unless being able to relax and sleep is considered a PED. CBD does help me sleep. But it makes me a bit too relaxed for workouts and bike rides.
There isn't even any consensus on it for pain relief. Some studies indicate it's a mild pain reliever in CBD form with just a small amount of THC, right around the current FDA limit. There's some speculation that the psychoactive effect from a higher concentration of THC helps folks relax, relieves anxiety and promotes sleep, which helps with healing and reduction of perceived pain.
I tried stronger THC concentrations a year or so ago before workouts and I couldn't feel any advantage or see any improvements in my data. But I didn't ride outdoors in that condition. I don't trust my equilibrium that much.
Alcohol seems to offer some benefits for workouts, probably from the carbs/sugars. But only in small amounts, for me. If I have more than one beer after a group ride before heading home I just feel lazy. But there may be something to the way the body uses carbs and sugars. There's a fairly brief sweet spot when we need to resume activity before the insulin spike. Well probably see more data soon as more pros are training with blood glucose monitors for near-real time info. Although the UCI has banned those devices during competitions, which is a shame because there's a potential wealth of data we'll never see.
Besides my prescribed thyroid meds and caffeine, the closest I get to using a PED is kratom, which I've written about in other threads on pain relief. I don't want to make outrageous claims for kratom, but in my experience it's far less risky than the nannies and ninnies in some government agencies, hyped by credulous journalists, would have us believe. It's the most effective analgesic I've tried that doesn't hinder my workouts (like prescription opiates and muscle relaxers did -- I have 'em but hate to use them because they make me feel sluggish). And it doesn't aggravate my autoimmune disorder like NSAIDs. If I take aspirin or ibuprofen, etc., too often I develop psoriasis and psoriatic arthritis symptoms. The skin between my fingers cracks almost down to the bone, and my skin elsewhere gets flaky, red and itchy. As soon as I discontinue NSAIDs the problem clears up.
I check my heart rate, BP and HRV with an app and heart rate monitor every day, including during workouts. I started using a small amount of kratom (much smaller than most kratom users report) in summer 2018 after I was hit by a car, breaking and dislocating my shoulder and re-injuring my neck. I'm confident *for myself* that it's safe *for me* and helped get me back into working out and healthy again.
I'd bet some pro cyclists are using kratom but haven't reported it or mentioned it because for now there's no testing available and, last I checked, hasn't been banned or regulated by the various doping nannies. Subject to change at the whim of the regulatory ninnies.
There isn't even any consensus on it for pain relief. Some studies indicate it's a mild pain reliever in CBD form with just a small amount of THC, right around the current FDA limit. There's some speculation that the psychoactive effect from a higher concentration of THC helps folks relax, relieves anxiety and promotes sleep, which helps with healing and reduction of perceived pain.
I tried stronger THC concentrations a year or so ago before workouts and I couldn't feel any advantage or see any improvements in my data. But I didn't ride outdoors in that condition. I don't trust my equilibrium that much.
Alcohol seems to offer some benefits for workouts, probably from the carbs/sugars. But only in small amounts, for me. If I have more than one beer after a group ride before heading home I just feel lazy. But there may be something to the way the body uses carbs and sugars. There's a fairly brief sweet spot when we need to resume activity before the insulin spike. Well probably see more data soon as more pros are training with blood glucose monitors for near-real time info. Although the UCI has banned those devices during competitions, which is a shame because there's a potential wealth of data we'll never see.
Besides my prescribed thyroid meds and caffeine, the closest I get to using a PED is kratom, which I've written about in other threads on pain relief. I don't want to make outrageous claims for kratom, but in my experience it's far less risky than the nannies and ninnies in some government agencies, hyped by credulous journalists, would have us believe. It's the most effective analgesic I've tried that doesn't hinder my workouts (like prescription opiates and muscle relaxers did -- I have 'em but hate to use them because they make me feel sluggish). And it doesn't aggravate my autoimmune disorder like NSAIDs. If I take aspirin or ibuprofen, etc., too often I develop psoriasis and psoriatic arthritis symptoms. The skin between my fingers cracks almost down to the bone, and my skin elsewhere gets flaky, red and itchy. As soon as I discontinue NSAIDs the problem clears up.
I check my heart rate, BP and HRV with an app and heart rate monitor every day, including during workouts. I started using a small amount of kratom (much smaller than most kratom users report) in summer 2018 after I was hit by a car, breaking and dislocating my shoulder and re-injuring my neck. I'm confident *for myself* that it's safe *for me* and helped get me back into working out and healthy again.
I'd bet some pro cyclists are using kratom but haven't reported it or mentioned it because for now there's no testing available and, last I checked, hasn't been banned or regulated by the various doping nannies. Subject to change at the whim of the regulatory ninnies.
#69
Me duelen las nalgas
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Texas
Posts: 13,513
Bikes: Centurion Ironman, Trek 5900, Univega Via Carisma, Globe Carmel
Mentioned: 199 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4560 Post(s)
Liked 2,802 Times
in
1,800 Posts
Looking for Mr Buche Burrito
In which we try to find Shelby's pig offal nandrolone connection.
Reporter finds at least two possible sources. And says they're pretty tasty.
No word yet on whether said journalist failed any doping tests.
In which we try to find Shelby's pig offal nandrolone connection.
Reporter finds at least two possible sources. And says they're pretty tasty.
No word yet on whether said journalist failed any doping tests.
#70
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 23,208
Mentioned: 89 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18883 Post(s)
Liked 10,646 Times
in
6,054 Posts
#71
Junior Member
What a lively discussion. Let me join you. The use of steroids in professional sports is justified because a professional athlete must constantly achieve new results, otherwise, it will become uninteresting, rather than spending years to achieve their goals and consolidate their results. Nandrolone has very positive effects such as positive effects on joints, helps in weight gain. And as we know, there are people who suffer from overweight problems. Many medications have side effects, the same aspirin, and aspirin also cause death. And basically, when it comes to injectable steroids, they have found their use in veterinary medicine, as discussed in other comments. And let's face it, Arnold admitted to taking steroids while competing. But nothing supernatural happened. Arnold was a legend and still is. Once again, the support of pharmaceutical companies is justified in professional sports. And trying to ban everything you can is a waste of time and money. As long as there are competitions and records, there will be doping in any form.
Last edited by NikolasFarrel; 10-31-21 at 02:49 PM.
#72
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Posts: 27,547
Mentioned: 217 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18377 Post(s)
Liked 4,512 Times
in
3,354 Posts
Shelby Houlihan has fallen out of the news now that he Olympics are over. It is sad that she missed potentially her one chance to compete.
It is hard to say in her case. Nandrolone seems to be a fairly week steroid, and the inadvertent contamination argument is plausible.
I do think one should evaluate leniency for trace levels of natural food borne steroids, especially if only detected once.
As far as various sports. Bodybuilding/bodysculpting... Sure, do it if they wish. But, that becomes a slippery slope as it crosses over to weightlifting and powerlifting.
Other sports, I support the concept of everyone beginning equally with the human body. So, I'm not in favor of the concept of saying that a person can only compete if taking drugs.
And, certainly male hormones and hormone analogs being given to women should be excluded. But, even that might be reevaluated in light of the push to be transgender inclusive.
It is hard to say in her case. Nandrolone seems to be a fairly week steroid, and the inadvertent contamination argument is plausible.
I do think one should evaluate leniency for trace levels of natural food borne steroids, especially if only detected once.
As far as various sports. Bodybuilding/bodysculpting... Sure, do it if they wish. But, that becomes a slippery slope as it crosses over to weightlifting and powerlifting.
Other sports, I support the concept of everyone beginning equally with the human body. So, I'm not in favor of the concept of saying that a person can only compete if taking drugs.
And, certainly male hormones and hormone analogs being given to women should be excluded. But, even that might be reevaluated in light of the push to be transgender inclusive.
#73
Junior Member
Shelby Houlihan has fallen out of the news now that he Olympics are over. It is sad that she missed potentially her one chance to compete.
It is hard to say in her case. Nandrolone seems to be a fairly week steroid, and the inadvertent contamination argument is plausible.
I do think one should evaluate leniency for trace levels of natural food borne steroids, especially if only detected once.
As far as various sports. Bodybuilding/bodysculpting... Sure, do it if they wish. But, that becomes a slippery slope as it crosses over to weightlifting and powerlifting.
Other sports, I support the concept of everyone beginning equally with the human body. So, I'm not in favor of the concept of saying that a person can only compete if taking drugs.
And, certainly male hormones and hormone analogs being given to women should be excluded. But, even that might be reevaluated in light of the push to be transgender inclusive.
It is hard to say in her case. Nandrolone seems to be a fairly week steroid, and the inadvertent contamination argument is plausible.
I do think one should evaluate leniency for trace levels of natural food borne steroids, especially if only detected once.
As far as various sports. Bodybuilding/bodysculpting... Sure, do it if they wish. But, that becomes a slippery slope as it crosses over to weightlifting and powerlifting.
Other sports, I support the concept of everyone beginning equally with the human body. So, I'm not in favor of the concept of saying that a person can only compete if taking drugs.
And, certainly male hormones and hormone analogs being given to women should be excluded. But, even that might be reevaluated in light of the push to be transgender inclusive.