Modern Steel Road Bike Appreciation Thread
01-21-16, 08:56 AM
#127
I'm doing it wrong.
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What you're failing to see is that you keep changing the terms. First you asked, "why not fillet braze?" It is fillet brazed. Then you say the paint "obliterates any suggestion of precision, thoughtfulness, or skilled handiwork," but I'm willing to bet you've never seen a lugged steel ISM junction before, let alone with custom made lugs, two things right there-- even if you don't know fillet brazing when you see it-- that reek of "precision, thoughtfulness, and skilled handiwork," and which, arguably, cannot be made without those things.
So do you know what you're talking about? I don't think so. I think you don't like the paint job and don't get the aesthetic, and are trying to cook up some clever sounding rationale to explain it's not to your taste, because you like old style stuff.
Everything on that bike is rendered in monochrome paint -- from the seat mast topper to the headset dust cover-- and matte black components, expressly for the purpose of presenting a uniquely uniform aesthetic, which compels the viewer to look at the bike in the whole, yet you want them to highlight junction details which would directly contravene the overarching aesthetic goal.
To say you don't "get it" is a wild understatement, and you should be happy to leave it there. Immanuel Kant said there is no argument if a man says something is pleasing to him, rather than pleasing in and of itself. Beauty is not an intrinsic truth, but an agreed upon property of a thing. Suggesting that bike is wearing an "unflattering sack" is proof that you are interested only in your simple opinion, and unable to aggregate an aesthetic interpretation which doesn't correspond with a narrative of precedent forms. I suppose that's more of a post-modernist approach, but your example of a detail pic of old fashioned lug work would confirm that you're not there yet.
So do you know what you're talking about? I don't think so. I think you don't like the paint job and don't get the aesthetic, and are trying to cook up some clever sounding rationale to explain it's not to your taste, because you like old style stuff.
Everything on that bike is rendered in monochrome paint -- from the seat mast topper to the headset dust cover-- and matte black components, expressly for the purpose of presenting a uniquely uniform aesthetic, which compels the viewer to look at the bike in the whole, yet you want them to highlight junction details which would directly contravene the overarching aesthetic goal.
To say you don't "get it" is a wild understatement, and you should be happy to leave it there. Immanuel Kant said there is no argument if a man says something is pleasing to him, rather than pleasing in and of itself. Beauty is not an intrinsic truth, but an agreed upon property of a thing. Suggesting that bike is wearing an "unflattering sack" is proof that you are interested only in your simple opinion, and unable to aggregate an aesthetic interpretation which doesn't correspond with a narrative of precedent forms. I suppose that's more of a post-modernist approach, but your example of a detail pic of old fashioned lug work would confirm that you're not there yet.
01-21-16, 09:09 AM
#128
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What you're failing to see is that you keep changing the terms. First you asked, "why not fillet braze?" It is fillet brazed. Then you say the paint "obliterates any suggestion of precision, thoughtfulness, or skilled handiwork," but I'm willing to bet you've never seen a lugged steel ISM junction before, let alone with custom made lugs, two things right there-- even if you don't know fillet brazing when you see it-- that reek of "precision, thoughtfulness, and skilled handiwork," and which, arguably, cannot be made without those things.
So do you know what you're talking about? I don't think so. I think you don't like the paint job and don't get the aesthetic, and are trying to cook up some clever sounding rationale to explain it's not to your taste, because you like old style stuff.
Everything on that bike is rendered in monochrome paint -- from the seat mast topper to the headset dust cover-- and matte black components, expressly for the purpose of presenting a uniquely uniform aesthetic, which compels the viewer to look at the bike in the whole, yet you want them to highlight junction details which would directly contravene the overarching aesthetic goal.
To say you don't "get it" is a wild understatement, and you should be happy to leave it there. Immanuel Kant said there is no argument if a man says something is pleasing to him, rather than pleasing in and of itself. Beauty is not an intrinsic truth, but an agreed upon property of a thing. Suggesting that bike is wearing an "unflattering sack" is proof that you are interested only in your simple opinion, and unable to aggregate an aesthetic interpretation which doesn't correspond with a narrative of precedent forms. I suppose that's more of a post-modernist approach, but your example of a detail pic of old fashioned lug work would confirm that you're not there yet.
So do you know what you're talking about? I don't think so. I think you don't like the paint job and don't get the aesthetic, and are trying to cook up some clever sounding rationale to explain it's not to your taste, because you like old style stuff.
Everything on that bike is rendered in monochrome paint -- from the seat mast topper to the headset dust cover-- and matte black components, expressly for the purpose of presenting a uniquely uniform aesthetic, which compels the viewer to look at the bike in the whole, yet you want them to highlight junction details which would directly contravene the overarching aesthetic goal.
To say you don't "get it" is a wild understatement, and you should be happy to leave it there. Immanuel Kant said there is no argument if a man says something is pleasing to him, rather than pleasing in and of itself. Beauty is not an intrinsic truth, but an agreed upon property of a thing. Suggesting that bike is wearing an "unflattering sack" is proof that you are interested only in your simple opinion, and unable to aggregate an aesthetic interpretation which doesn't correspond with a narrative of precedent forms. I suppose that's more of a post-modernist approach, but your example of a detail pic of old fashioned lug work would confirm that you're not there yet.
Now, many modern woodworkers will instead leave their dovetailed boxes clearcoated so everyone can see their fancy Joinery. Same joint, but one person wants to make it the highlight, the older style was to make the overall shape of the piece be the highlight.
Which one is right? I don't know. I like both.
01-21-16, 09:09 AM
#129
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I think what he is getting at is that the paint is a bit thick, which sort of masks the edges of the lug. I can see that as it almost looks powder coated since it seems so thick. Nothing wrong with it, but if you look at that seat tube junction compared with the lug edges of the orange-ish head tube on the other bike, you can see the difference.
Again, had he just said it wasn't to his taste...fine. Instead, it's "obliterates" craftsmanship, finish work is "equivocal" and looks like an "unflattering sack."
My point is that he doesn't have the context or understanding to appreciate what that bike represents. I wouldn't have gone there, and just let him have his opinion, but he wanted to mix up his uninformed opinion with absolutes, and open a discussion about aesthetic philosophy, so, we're having that conversation.
01-21-16, 09:18 AM
#130
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As a woodworker, I compare this to hand-cut dovetail joints. On the one hand, back in the day, people used dovetails because they didn't have screws or reliable glue...he joint was practical first of all. It was strong. MANY OLD dovetailed chests were painted rather than oil finished, even though it mostly covered the detailed dovetail. in fact, many pieces of furniture were designed so that the dovetails were hidden by other pieces of wood.
Now, many modern woodworkers will instead leave their dovetailed boxes clearcoated so everyone can see their fancy Joinery. Same joint, but one person wants to make it the highlight, the older style was to make the overall shape of the piece be the highlight.
Which one is right? I don't know. I like both.
Now, many modern woodworkers will instead leave their dovetailed boxes clearcoated so everyone can see their fancy Joinery. Same joint, but one person wants to make it the highlight, the older style was to make the overall shape of the piece be the highlight.
Which one is right? I don't know. I like both.
01-21-16, 09:19 AM
#131
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Six pages and no Indy Fab bikes. Sad! The frame was given to me and I built it up over the last year pulling stuff from CL mainly. It is a fantastic bike to ride.
01-21-16, 09:26 AM
#134
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01-21-16, 09:32 AM
#136
~>~
As always Mercian, hand built to your specifications.
Vertical, horizontal dropouts or track ends: your choice.
Threaded or thread less fork: your choice.
853, 725 or 631: your choice.
And so on for a plethora of specifications all: your choice.
-Bandera
01-21-16, 09:54 AM
#137
Senior Member
Also no LeMonds so far, although most are not "modern" as in "new", this one is:
01-21-16, 10:02 AM
#138
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What you're failing to see is that you keep changing the terms. First you asked, "why not fillet braze?" It is fillet brazed. Then you say the paint "obliterates any suggestion of precision, thoughtfulness, or skilled handiwork," but I'm willing to bet you've never seen a lugged steel ISM junction before, let alone with custom made lugs, two things right there-- even if you don't know fillet brazing when you see it-- that reek of "precision, thoughtfulness, and skilled handiwork," and which, arguably, cannot be made without those things.
So do you know what you're talking about? I don't think so. I think you don't like the paint job and don't get the aesthetic, and are trying to cook up some clever sounding rationale to explain it's not to your taste, because you like old style stuff.
Everything on that bike is rendered in monochrome paint -- from the seat mast topper to the headset dust cover-- and matte black components, expressly for the purpose of presenting a uniquely uniform aesthetic, which compels the viewer to look at the bike in the whole, yet you want them to highlight junction details which would directly contravene the overarching aesthetic goal.
To say you don't "get it" is a wild understatement, and you should be happy to leave it there. Immanuel Kant said there is no argument if a man says something is pleasing to him, rather than pleasing in and of itself. Beauty is not an intrinsic truth, but an agreed upon property of a thing. Suggesting that bike is wearing an "unflattering sack" is proof that you are interested only in your simple opinion, and unable to aggregate an aesthetic interpretation which doesn't correspond with a narrative of precedent forms. I suppose that's more of a post-modernist approach, but your example of a detail pic of old fashioned lug work would confirm that you're not there yet.
So do you know what you're talking about? I don't think so. I think you don't like the paint job and don't get the aesthetic, and are trying to cook up some clever sounding rationale to explain it's not to your taste, because you like old style stuff.
Everything on that bike is rendered in monochrome paint -- from the seat mast topper to the headset dust cover-- and matte black components, expressly for the purpose of presenting a uniquely uniform aesthetic, which compels the viewer to look at the bike in the whole, yet you want them to highlight junction details which would directly contravene the overarching aesthetic goal.
To say you don't "get it" is a wild understatement, and you should be happy to leave it there. Immanuel Kant said there is no argument if a man says something is pleasing to him, rather than pleasing in and of itself. Beauty is not an intrinsic truth, but an agreed upon property of a thing. Suggesting that bike is wearing an "unflattering sack" is proof that you are interested only in your simple opinion, and unable to aggregate an aesthetic interpretation which doesn't correspond with a narrative of precedent forms. I suppose that's more of a post-modernist approach, but your example of a detail pic of old fashioned lug work would confirm that you're not there yet.
01-21-16, 10:05 AM
#139
Vain, But Lacking Talent
01-21-16, 10:08 AM
#141
Senior Member
01-21-16, 10:15 AM
#142
Full Member
01-21-16, 10:21 AM
#143
Vain, But Lacking Talent
I think I see it now. It's a "standard" size and the rest are oversized. That first picture made it look like they put a flat tube on top. Good looking bike, but I think that top tube sort of kills it for me. Agree that the blue looks great.
01-21-16, 10:24 AM
#144
Senior Member
BTW it appears that the top tube of the Washoe is ovalized, hence the look (not sure why the two photos I posted are discrepant). That combined with the oversized downtube and head tube make for a somewhat unique looking steel frame bike. It comes at a price too, $2350 for the frameset, although for only $800 more you can get it as a full bike with 105, which makes the frameset look overpriced.
01-21-16, 10:27 AM
#145
I'm doing it wrong.
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I'm interested in how those Lemonds ride....my old Zurich is excellent.
01-21-16, 10:28 AM
#146
Senior Member
01-21-16, 10:50 AM
#148
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Volagi Viaje 105. It's my "all-purpose" road bike. Lots of commuting, some group rides, has done a half ironman. Would like to do some light touring on this bike, it is definitely built for long ride comfort.
For better pictures or more info, here's the Volagi page:
Viaje XL | Volagi Cycles
01-21-16, 11:37 AM
#149
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I'm intrigued by that. I didn't see rack mounts, does it have them and I just missed them, or did you have to p-clamp it?
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Bikes: 1996 Eddy Merckx Titanium EX, 1989/90 Colnago Super(issimo?) Piu(?),
01-21-16, 11:45 AM
#150
Senior Member
Volagi Viaje 105. It's my "all-purpose" road bike. Lots of commuting, some group rides, has done a half ironman. Would like to do some light touring on this bike, it is definitely built for long ride comfort.
For better pictures or more info, here's the Volagi page:
Viaje XL | Volagi Cycles