The Bike Snob NYC goes full retrogrouch...
#26
Friendship is Magic
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 22,985
Bikes: old ones
Mentioned: 304 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26425 Post(s)
Liked 10,381 Times
in
7,209 Posts
...why does starting this thread define e-bikes as my top priority ? Why can't I have multiple issues of concern ? Why is this an either or issue ?
To be clear, you referenced a set of laws that have been widely adopted thanks to a manufacturer's lobbying push on a national level. They're based on "model legislation", drafted by the industry and their lobbying arm. They're sold on the concept that this lobbying group represents the common interests of cyclists. Which is questionable at this point. They do represent a certain demographic, and they certainly represent the people making and selling e-bikes.
My impression is that they were adopted without any real world experience in how the results would play out. They are now playing out. Enforcement is just not a part of the program. So we now have a set of laws that, even if they were followed by all users, would be problematic because of the speed differentials and experience levels already mentioned a couple of times. But that doesn't really matter, because a set of laws that are based on the honor system usually don't work out well in the real world. There's a historical exception in the case of Vigilance Committees. But stringing up a few people as an example is frowned upon in the 21st Century.
.
.
.
__________________
Last edited by 3alarmer; 09-26-23 at 08:41 PM.
#27
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,104
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 288 Post(s)
Liked 330 Times
in
160 Posts
Like the Snob says, it’s the Wild West here in the big city. Gasoline powered “mopeds” now fly through bike lanes, and the cops aren’t able or interested in doing anything about it. Knuckleheads on all manner of unlicensed, motorized vehicles driving like maniacs and stinking up the neighborhood. Things are going in the wrong direction, and people *are* getting hurt.
My take is that if it’s speed regulated, weighs less than say 70 pounds, isn’t gasoline powered, and the rider isn’t a knucklehead I’m generally ok with it being in the bike lane. But it can be hard to get a four of a kind.
And then there’s the cars…
I think it’s relevant to point out that urban, suburban and rural cyclists are all going to have different experiences, perspectives and priorities when it comes to this discussion.
My take is that if it’s speed regulated, weighs less than say 70 pounds, isn’t gasoline powered, and the rider isn’t a knucklehead I’m generally ok with it being in the bike lane. But it can be hard to get a four of a kind.
And then there’s the cars…
I think it’s relevant to point out that urban, suburban and rural cyclists are all going to have different experiences, perspectives and priorities when it comes to this discussion.
Last edited by jethin; 09-26-23 at 08:47 PM.
#28
Friendship is Magic
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 22,985
Bikes: old ones
Mentioned: 304 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26425 Post(s)
Liked 10,381 Times
in
7,209 Posts
#29
Full Member
I like Eben but this grouchiness doesn't even make sense.
1. The existence of e-bikes and scooters does not mean that the traditional bicycle or bicycle trails and lanes are going to disappear. In fact the increase in trail/lane usage just means more infrastructure will be built and maintained.
2. From what I can tell, for most e-bike riders the situation is not "I used to ride a normal bike and now I ride an e-bike". Many of these people would not have ridden at all. So we begrudge this technology that brings people to outdoor exercise because...we don't like getting passed by e-bikes?
3. In urban and suburban areas, less car rides means less combustion engine emissions means cleaner air and safer roads for cyclists. Good trade off for dealing with increase one or two-wheeled traffic.
1. The existence of e-bikes and scooters does not mean that the traditional bicycle or bicycle trails and lanes are going to disappear. In fact the increase in trail/lane usage just means more infrastructure will be built and maintained.
2. From what I can tell, for most e-bike riders the situation is not "I used to ride a normal bike and now I ride an e-bike". Many of these people would not have ridden at all. So we begrudge this technology that brings people to outdoor exercise because...we don't like getting passed by e-bikes?
3. In urban and suburban areas, less car rides means less combustion engine emissions means cleaner air and safer roads for cyclists. Good trade off for dealing with increase one or two-wheeled traffic.
I’m sorry - but I have to disagree. I’m now seeing gas powered motorcycles on bike lanes here in Colorado, because if you are riding a full throttle e-bike, what’s the difference? If anything, a gas powered motorbike is easier to recharge and no risk of battery fire.
1) anything that can, without any human effort go over 30MPH is ridiculous to be considered MUP compatible.
2) E-bikes are not replacing existing bikers….they are replacing what we used to call newbies.
3) These bikes are by and large (outside of those buying truly designed for dedicated cargo purpose bikes) not replacing cars. They are replacing bikes.
4) When these batteries die, a large portion will have issues with replacement, leaving a large number of these bikes as just heavy bikes. So now tell, what is the environmental impact heading into landfills across the world.
5) Finally - we replaced the bike with basically motorbikes, and all are getting collectively larger asses because of this.
Likes For Het Volk:
#30
Friendship is Magic
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 22,985
Bikes: old ones
Mentioned: 304 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26425 Post(s)
Liked 10,381 Times
in
7,209 Posts
#31
On the road
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: New England
Posts: 2,176
Bikes: Old Schwinns and old Raleighs
Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 373 Post(s)
Liked 857 Times
in
327 Posts
I don't think the e-bikes belong on bike/pedestrian trails and sidewalks. But I don't think the rules would even be enforced if we had them. We barely ticket people driving 20 mph over the speed limit here, let alone enforce bike trail rules . It's a pain but not a priority.
I hate to say it, but on my ride, I live at the level that the thing I most fear is the driver of a large SUV or truck who is drunk, high on weed, or on a cell phone. You can do everything right and still become roadkill on a bike. Yet we all persist because we love it... it does not always have to make sense.
I will admit I had to google "micromobility". I thought it meant a small wheel bike like the Moulton or Raleigh Twenty. My bike preferences are pretty much obsolete as it is, let alone with electro shifting and e-bikes. My website was once cited by an OutdoorOnline article as an example of arcane knowledge for outdated bikes (it was a short guide to rod brakes I wrote a long time ago, if I recall).
I hate to say it, but on my ride, I live at the level that the thing I most fear is the driver of a large SUV or truck who is drunk, high on weed, or on a cell phone. You can do everything right and still become roadkill on a bike. Yet we all persist because we love it... it does not always have to make sense.
I will admit I had to google "micromobility". I thought it meant a small wheel bike like the Moulton or Raleigh Twenty. My bike preferences are pretty much obsolete as it is, let alone with electro shifting and e-bikes. My website was once cited by an OutdoorOnline article as an example of arcane knowledge for outdated bikes (it was a short guide to rod brakes I wrote a long time ago, if I recall).
__________________
Classic American and British Roadsters, Utility Bikes, and Sporting Bikes (1935-1979):
https://bikeshedva.blogspot.com/
Classic American and British Roadsters, Utility Bikes, and Sporting Bikes (1935-1979):
https://bikeshedva.blogspot.com/
Last edited by SirMike1983; 09-26-23 at 09:15 PM.
Likes For SirMike1983:
#32
Full Member
Join Date: Jan 2023
Posts: 486
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 175 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 452 Times
in
232 Posts
Personally, I have zero fear of getting into an accident with an e-bike rider. Yes, bad things can result but nothing remotely bad as getting into a wreck with an SUV or behemoth grocery fetching tool in their Fook-150.
#33
Thread Killer
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 12,448
Bikes: 15 Kinesis Racelight 4S, 76 Motebecane Gran Jubilée, 17 Dedacciai Gladiatore2, 12 Breezer Venturi, 09 Dahon Mariner, 12 Mercier Nano, 95 DeKerf Team SL, 19 Tern Rally, 21 Breezer Doppler Cafe+, 19 T-Lab X3, 91 Serotta CII, 23 3T Strada
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3148 Post(s)
Liked 1,714 Times
in
1,034 Posts
Paris officially the first city in Europe to ban e-scooters. What are the rules in other countries?
...not e-bikes, but the somewhat troublesome e-scooter demographic. Do you have public e-scooter rentals in Ann Arbor ? It's pretty hard to miss them here in Sacramento. They end up lying around all over the place.
...not e-bikes, but the somewhat troublesome e-scooter demographic. Do you have public e-scooter rentals in Ann Arbor ? It's pretty hard to miss them here in Sacramento. They end up lying around all over the place.
As for Paris, as one of the most touristed cities in the world, it’s an exceptional situation and not relatable to mine or to most American cities.
#34
Garage tetris expert
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Texas Hill Country
Posts: 893
Bikes: A few. Ok, a lot
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 387 Post(s)
Liked 692 Times
in
329 Posts
Chain waxing and e-bikes. Is there a third topic that completes the holy trinity of threads filled with lots of ... words?
(campy vs X perhaps?)
I prefer to work from a position of common interest and agreement— chains should be lubricated somehow and e-scooters and their rental companies are a scourge. The local ER nurses have stronger views on the latter, despite the unusual statistics of squeaky-chain-related ER visits.
(campy vs X perhaps?)
I prefer to work from a position of common interest and agreement— chains should be lubricated somehow and e-scooters and their rental companies are a scourge. The local ER nurses have stronger views on the latter, despite the unusual statistics of squeaky-chain-related ER visits.
Last edited by panzerwagon; 09-26-23 at 10:48 PM.
Likes For P!N20:
#36
ignominious poltroon
Join Date: Jan 2022
Posts: 4,047
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2241 Post(s)
Liked 3,443 Times
in
1,802 Posts
#37
Friendship is Magic
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 22,985
Bikes: old ones
Mentioned: 304 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26425 Post(s)
Liked 10,381 Times
in
7,209 Posts
Truthfully, though, the rental scooters were a much worse problem, back when first introduced by a couple of competing companies. The city must have learned something from that fiasco. Whatever deal they have to allow Lime to operate here, has done a much better job of collecting the ones left lying about, in various places where the operator lost interest in the scooter, and dropped it in the bike lane.
__________________
#38
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 3,452
Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 877 Post(s)
Liked 2,293 Times
in
1,281 Posts
I see at least half of the e-bike riders not pedaling at all . I see a few riding on sidewalks in commercial areas "salmoning" through pedestrians and jumping on and off curbs. It is human nature for some to abuse something that can be great for others . I don't think laws are the answer as there are no enforcement procedures in place for laws we already have. As a cyclist I have adjusted my riding to avoid areas where there are more people on various electric powered vehicles. I don't know if I will eventually run out of alternative routes but I don't see anything changing , if anything , it will continue to increase . The bike paths that we have here in Ventura County are pretty nice , scenic and well maintained , but are over run now with the inclusion of electric powered vehicles passing and threading their way through regular bicycles. The reason these threads are so long and wordy is that it really does affect the people (most of us) who just want to ride our bikes and most of us are passionate about just pedaling a bike.
Likes For Kabuki12:
#39
Friendship is Magic
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 22,985
Bikes: old ones
Mentioned: 304 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26425 Post(s)
Liked 10,381 Times
in
7,209 Posts
.
...I honestly do not "get" why suggesting that something new, like this e micro-mobility thing, might not be working out in the same way it was originally envisioned. And thus require some re-evaluation and further regulation. But I don't "get" a lot of things. What I find particularly confusing is the people who contribute comments about how it must be my imagination, because they don't see any problems.
Originally Posted by Chico Marx
Well, who ya gonna believe me or your own eyes?
__________________
#40
Full Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Southern California
Posts: 492
Bikes: Historical: Schwinn Speedster; Schwinn Collegiate; 1981 Ross Gran Tour; 1981 Dawes Atlantis; 1991 Specialized Rockhopper. Current: 1987 Ritchey Ultra; 1987 Centurion Ironman Dave Scott Master; 1992 Specialized Stumpjumper FS
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 209 Post(s)
Liked 178 Times
in
111 Posts
One of my other thoughts about eBikes is that cars have enough trouble judging the speed and behavior of cyclists, and now eBikes are throwing that all out of whack. They can be on you really fast.
Last edited by Chinghis; 09-27-23 at 10:41 AM.
#41
Señor Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Hardy, VA
Posts: 17,926
Bikes: Mostly English - predominantly Raleighs
Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1492 Post(s)
Liked 1,096 Times
in
642 Posts
Even in such backwaters as Roanoke, VA, there are an increasing number of e-bikes and other powered contrivances out on the greenways. Few of them are actually pedaling, but I've only experienced a few who I would characterize as hazardous or reckless, but really, that's all it takes. I do admit that it irks me a bit to see someone who appears young and able-bodied zipping around "joyriding" (they've got stupid-big grins on their faces and their pedals aren't moving), but what can one do? I just remain a bit more alert and defensive when I'm in crowded places.
__________________
In search of what to search for.
In search of what to search for.
#42
Bike Butcher of Portland
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 11,639
Bikes: It's complicated.
Mentioned: 1299 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4682 Post(s)
Liked 5,802 Times
in
2,286 Posts
I'm afraid this is where humans are headed.
__________________
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
#43
Full Member
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...gerous-streets
The entire point of building a segregated infrastructure for bicycles disappears when motorized vehicles become commonplace on that same infrastructure. And building a new infrastructure for each type of vehicle that is developed is not feasible.
People who are physically unable to power a bicycle relying on electric assistance is one thing, but the enormous majority of electric motorcyclists are simply lazy, and not much better than drivers, to the environment.
Likes For TC1:
#45
On the road
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: New England
Posts: 2,176
Bikes: Old Schwinns and old Raleighs
Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 373 Post(s)
Liked 857 Times
in
327 Posts
__________________
Classic American and British Roadsters, Utility Bikes, and Sporting Bikes (1935-1979):
https://bikeshedva.blogspot.com/
Classic American and British Roadsters, Utility Bikes, and Sporting Bikes (1935-1979):
https://bikeshedva.blogspot.com/
Likes For SirMike1983:
#46
Full Member
More to the point, once you are dead, you are dead -- and electric motorcycles carry enough energy to kill you. A pickup truck can also kill you, but cannot make you more dead.
#47
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Beaverton, OR
Posts: 14,744
Bikes: Yes
Mentioned: 525 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3230 Post(s)
Liked 3,868 Times
in
1,439 Posts
I agree with your points and I agree that ebikes are fundamentally good for the culture. But I'd like to discuss Eben's grouchiness.
The thing I've noticed about Eben is that he's a writer. This may seem obvious, but it's important to think about in this context. Writers do a lot of things for society, and in the context of this article there are two important functions to highlight.
First, writers entertain us. That's the primary thing Eben is doing in most of what he writes. You don't get to be a successful writer by saying reasonable things in a reasonable way. You need to entertain. As such, the grouchiness is part of his schtick.
Second, writers help us process our thoughts and feelings. While some may think they're giving us unvarnished truth, what they're really giving us is perspective -- a way of looking at things that we otherwise may not have. Whether that perspective is wrong or right is almost immaterial. It's what we do with it that matters.
When Di2 first came out, Eben mocked it. In what I consider to be one of his best lines, he said Di2 would change everything you thought about bikes, assuming you previously thought of them as inexpensive and easy to maintain. He seems to have warmed up to electronic shifting. I expect he'll come around on ebikes too.
I take what he's saying as more along the lines of "have we really thought this through?" And the answer, of course, is that we haven't. There are going to be growing pains. We'll get through it though.
The thing I've noticed about Eben is that he's a writer. This may seem obvious, but it's important to think about in this context. Writers do a lot of things for society, and in the context of this article there are two important functions to highlight.
First, writers entertain us. That's the primary thing Eben is doing in most of what he writes. You don't get to be a successful writer by saying reasonable things in a reasonable way. You need to entertain. As such, the grouchiness is part of his schtick.
Second, writers help us process our thoughts and feelings. While some may think they're giving us unvarnished truth, what they're really giving us is perspective -- a way of looking at things that we otherwise may not have. Whether that perspective is wrong or right is almost immaterial. It's what we do with it that matters.
When Di2 first came out, Eben mocked it. In what I consider to be one of his best lines, he said Di2 would change everything you thought about bikes, assuming you previously thought of them as inexpensive and easy to maintain. He seems to have warmed up to electronic shifting. I expect he'll come around on ebikes too.
I take what he's saying as more along the lines of "have we really thought this through?" And the answer, of course, is that we haven't. There are going to be growing pains. We'll get through it though.
__________________
My Bikes
My Bikes
#48
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Big Apple
Posts: 1,428
Bikes: yes
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 512 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 409 Times
in
176 Posts
Here in NYC, the number of bikes, ebikes, etc.that reflect people stopping use of their car is probably close to zero. Most of the usage is from people abandoning other transit modes, like subway, bus and taxi or from the various corporate app delivery services, which lately have become staffed by the new illegal alien serf class being developed in NYC.
#49
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: NW Burbs, Chicago
Posts: 12,055
Mentioned: 201 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3015 Post(s)
Liked 3,804 Times
in
1,408 Posts
...why does starting this thread define e-bikes as my top priority ? Why can't I have multiple issues of concern ? Why is this an either or issue ?
To be clear, you referenced a set of laws that have been widely adopted thanks to a manufacturer's lobbying push on a national level. They're based on "model legislation", drafted by the industry and their lobbying arm. They're sold on the concept that this lobbying group represents the common interests of cyclists. Which is questionable at this point. They do represent a certain demographic, and they certainly represent the people making and selling e-bikes.
My impression is that they were adopted without any real world experience in how the results would play out. They are now playing out. Enforcement is just not a part of the program. So we now have a set of laws that, even if they were followed by all users, would be problematic because of the speed differentials and experience levels already mentioned a couple of times. But that doesn't really matter, because a set of laws that are based on the honor system usually don't work out well in the real world. There's a historical exception in the case of Vigilance Committees. But stringing up a few people as an example is frowned upon in the 21st Century.
.
.
.
To be clear, you referenced a set of laws that have been widely adopted thanks to a manufacturer's lobbying push on a national level. They're based on "model legislation", drafted by the industry and their lobbying arm. They're sold on the concept that this lobbying group represents the common interests of cyclists. Which is questionable at this point. They do represent a certain demographic, and they certainly represent the people making and selling e-bikes.
My impression is that they were adopted without any real world experience in how the results would play out. They are now playing out. Enforcement is just not a part of the program. So we now have a set of laws that, even if they were followed by all users, would be problematic because of the speed differentials and experience levels already mentioned a couple of times. But that doesn't really matter, because a set of laws that are based on the honor system usually don't work out well in the real world. There's a historical exception in the case of Vigilance Committees. But stringing up a few people as an example is frowned upon in the 21st Century.
.
.
.
As for the laws, please, do tell, if they are biased to the massive e-bike industry swaying senators with their tens and tens of lobbying dollars (kinda hard to sway people when the largest ebike manufacturer, VanMoof, files for bankruptcy), what should the laws be? And if they are not enforced as you stated, what would changing them do? I mean, other than bupkis.
If your bright idea is to ban ebikes, sorry that the kids are on your lawn, you aren't putting that genie back in the bottle.
Or will wringing your hands on an anonymous forum suffice?
#50
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 4,707
Bikes: 82 Medici, 2011 Richard Sachs, 2011 Milwaukee Road
Mentioned: 55 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1952 Post(s)
Liked 2,013 Times
in
1,112 Posts
California is about to pass a law that prohibits cities from making sidewalks off limits to ebikes. These are the end-times.
__________________
I don't do: disks, tubeless, e-shifting, or bead head nymphs.
I don't do: disks, tubeless, e-shifting, or bead head nymphs.