Makes me want to buy a no-name carbon frame on Ebay.
07-02-15, 10:58 AM
#101
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My point wasn't that those bikes were stronger but that they were heavier and therefore much less prone to speed wobble. If they tried some of their crazy rides on 16 pound bikes, especially on the roads of the Depression years, I might not be here.
Ben
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07-02-15, 11:14 AM
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There's nothing there that supports the assertion that 16 pound bikes are more prone to wobble.
07-02-15, 11:26 AM
#103
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I have friends riding inexpensive Chinese carbon frames. No problems. As another commenter said, it helps to know with whom you are dealing, which usually means knowing someone who knows.
07-02-15, 12:47 PM
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Do you not understand that's the whole point? Anything bought on Alibaba, DHGate, Ebay or whatever 3rd party or popup website source, you have no idea where the frame came from, no idea who made it. You're a test group of ONE, so buy at least 2 frames, cut one apart and ride the other if it passes your due diligence. The article doesn't denounce open mold frames run by companies who've been around long enough to establish a decent reputation...!
07-02-15, 02:45 PM
#105
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There are excellent craftsmen in China, just like everywhere else, and I still paid $750 for it 5 or so years ago, so it was, at the time, and GAD guitars were about as expensive as Chinese-made guitars got. Guitars had been pegged as hooligan's instruments during the Cultural Revolution, so reputable manufacture of the instrument is a recent thing.
Fender's cheaper lines of Squiers had just moved manufacturing to China. They were generally OK. If you had enough to pick through you could find a gem, but you could also find unplayable ones.
At the time they were still confiscating huge numbers of fakes at port. "Gibsun" guitars, etc. Except by sheer dumb luck all unplayable garbage. But people risked losing their money to confiscation at the border because it was a guitar for $50.
For bicycle frames, most of the open mold stuff is like the Squiers. Quality control is a bit loose, materials are inconsistent. Stuff from the named companies trying to build up as a business in their own right can be like that GAD line is now, nicely, and skillfully manufactured but nothing extraordinary. The shady eBay/Ali Baba sellers are more like the Gibsuns.
The good stuff will not be independent, having been good enough to be captured by/partnered with one of the big international names - quietly doing what they do.
07-02-15, 04:09 PM
#106
Interocitor Command
There is some truly epic stupidity on display in this thread, even for the 41.
For example. Holy jumping jeebus christopher on a crumbly *******, do you people not understand what counterfeit MEANS? "Made in imitation of something else with intention to deceive." We are not talking about generic, off-brand or open-mold frames, here. We're talking about frames made to fool you into thinking that they are a brand-name frame but constructed cheaply and often improperly. I have heard stories about faked bicycling products that are absolutely hair-raising - a wheel where the inner layers were constructed mostly of newspaper, for example. That's an extreme example, but when you're talking fakes, you're talking things that could be constructed with little to no expertise in the methods and materials, by people with no regard and effectively no liability for your safety. These are the same sorts of people who put melamine in baby formula.
It is true that even a poorly constructed frame probably will not kill you. That does not make it safe, it does not even make it not risky to purchase and ride one of these fakes! The vast majority of Ford Pinto owners were not incinerated when their cars were rear-ended. That doesn't mean that the design of that car was not very hazardous. Loose headset cups are absolutely extremely dangerous. Chances are pretty good that the counterfeit YOU buy will not fail or pose a danger to you. The leap from that to thinking that buying a fake is somehow not rolling the dice is monumentally stupid.
It is perfectly reasonable to think critically about industry marketing, and about what you read in endemic journalism sources like VeloNews. But what I see here is not critical thinking, it is ignorance, willful misreading of this article and outright paranoia. The peanut gallery of idiots here who think anyone with a positive word about the bike industry is a paid shill and that industry journalism outfits like VeloNews only write what they are paid to write by advertisers are NOT in fact experts, do NOT in fact have the slightest bit of earned expertise in the real world to support their chicanery and are sure as hell not to be taken seriously. The full of extent of the qualifications of the BF crew of anti-industry crusaders is being ill-informed loudmouths on the internet. Their delusional and strident self-belief is not the same as actual knowledge - they have all but none of that.
By all means do not believe that the latest Venge is going to change your life and make you 6 mph faster, and by all means do not be taken in by the belief that you need the latest and greatest anything to have a great time riding your bicycle. You can definitely buy a high-quality bicycle that will give you tens of thousands of miles of happiness without paying $10,000 at your Specialized dealer. That's not what this article is about. This article demonstrates a very simple point: when you buy a fake from an unknown or unverifiable source, you literally DO NOT KNOW what you are getting and there are no systems in place to assure that it is safe to ride. That is so far from vilifying "no-name" frames that only a paranoid moron would interpret the article in this way, but this is BF so of course they are here and they are very loud.
For example. Holy jumping jeebus christopher on a crumbly *******, do you people not understand what counterfeit MEANS? "Made in imitation of something else with intention to deceive." We are not talking about generic, off-brand or open-mold frames, here. We're talking about frames made to fool you into thinking that they are a brand-name frame but constructed cheaply and often improperly. I have heard stories about faked bicycling products that are absolutely hair-raising - a wheel where the inner layers were constructed mostly of newspaper, for example. That's an extreme example, but when you're talking fakes, you're talking things that could be constructed with little to no expertise in the methods and materials, by people with no regard and effectively no liability for your safety. These are the same sorts of people who put melamine in baby formula.
It is true that even a poorly constructed frame probably will not kill you. That does not make it safe, it does not even make it not risky to purchase and ride one of these fakes! The vast majority of Ford Pinto owners were not incinerated when their cars were rear-ended. That doesn't mean that the design of that car was not very hazardous. Loose headset cups are absolutely extremely dangerous. Chances are pretty good that the counterfeit YOU buy will not fail or pose a danger to you. The leap from that to thinking that buying a fake is somehow not rolling the dice is monumentally stupid.
It is perfectly reasonable to think critically about industry marketing, and about what you read in endemic journalism sources like VeloNews. But what I see here is not critical thinking, it is ignorance, willful misreading of this article and outright paranoia. The peanut gallery of idiots here who think anyone with a positive word about the bike industry is a paid shill and that industry journalism outfits like VeloNews only write what they are paid to write by advertisers are NOT in fact experts, do NOT in fact have the slightest bit of earned expertise in the real world to support their chicanery and are sure as hell not to be taken seriously. The full of extent of the qualifications of the BF crew of anti-industry crusaders is being ill-informed loudmouths on the internet. Their delusional and strident self-belief is not the same as actual knowledge - they have all but none of that.
By all means do not believe that the latest Venge is going to change your life and make you 6 mph faster, and by all means do not be taken in by the belief that you need the latest and greatest anything to have a great time riding your bicycle. You can definitely buy a high-quality bicycle that will give you tens of thousands of miles of happiness without paying $10,000 at your Specialized dealer. That's not what this article is about. This article demonstrates a very simple point: when you buy a fake from an unknown or unverifiable source, you literally DO NOT KNOW what you are getting and there are no systems in place to assure that it is safe to ride. That is so far from vilifying "no-name" frames that only a paranoid moron would interpret the article in this way, but this is BF so of course they are here and they are very loud.
But the article was still irresponsible and made a lot of assumptions.
07-02-15, 08:28 PM
#107
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07-02-15, 09:02 PM
#108
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If they hit 50 mph on a three speed, that's pretty fast. Doesn't sound too hopeful for future generations, 'tho, as 16 lb bikes are becoming more common than three speeds.
07-03-15, 09:20 PM
#109
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Would you buy a counterfeit Rolex watch from a vendor on the streets of Hong Kong for a 10th of the price of the real one? Safe in the knowledge that it would look good for about a week before the gold plate started rubbing off. And the movement stopped working when you went swimming with it on?
The watch is not going to risk your life, for sure, but the same things applies to a bike that looks like and is labelled like a proper mainstream bike... it is a fake designed to deceive you and your friends and associates into believing you have something real. And in this case, the bike may well be of unknown origin, using poor manufacturing techniques and may well be unsafe to ride... it is, after all, made for appearances only.
I am wondering when a bike is going to appear with a major spelling mistake in the name emblazoned on the side of it. Spcialized? Bianci? Treck?
07-03-15, 09:23 PM
#110
Senior Member
The con-job and its dangers extends far beyond bicycles. There is a huge recall in Australia at the moment for electrical wiring in homes from, you guessed, China, the insulation for which deteriorates and exposes the wire in around two years. Heavens knows how it ever got past the regulators, who previously could have been trusted to pick this up. (Australia has 24-volt power, by the way).
Even low-voltage wiring (12v) has its issues with some Chinese makers reducing the copper content, so the innards suffer from corrosion creep more than they should.
Even low-voltage wiring (12v) has its issues with some Chinese makers reducing the copper content, so the innards suffer from corrosion creep more than they should.
07-04-15, 02:54 AM
#111
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The con-job and its dangers extends far beyond bicycles. There is a huge recall in Australia at the moment for electrical wiring in homes from, you guessed, China, the insulation for which deteriorates and exposes the wire in around two years. Heavens knows how it ever got past the regulators, who previously could have been trusted to pick this up. (Australia has 24-volt power, by the way).
Even low-voltage wiring (12v) has its issues with some Chinese makers reducing the copper content, so the innards suffer from corrosion creep more than they should.
Even low-voltage wiring (12v) has its issues with some Chinese makers reducing the copper content, so the innards suffer from corrosion creep more than they should.
07-04-15, 03:16 AM
#112
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To all those who refuse to buy stuff stamped "MIC", where are you getting your stuff? 90% of the "stuff" I buy is made in China. I can't avoid it with most things and with the ones I can I would have to pay 10x premium to avoid MIC
07-04-15, 09:20 AM
#113
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Inexpensive open-mould Chinese carbon frames are somewhat different from counterfeit ones. The former sit in the market on their own merits; the latter thieve from both unsuspecting buyers and from the designers and manufacturers of the originals.
Would you buy a counterfeit Rolex watch from a vendor on the streets of Hong Kong for a 10th of the price of the real one? Safe in the knowledge that it would look good for about a week before the gold plate started rubbing off. And the movement stopped working when you went swimming with it on?
The watch is not going to risk your life, for sure, but the same things applies to a bike that looks like and is labelled like a proper mainstream bike... it is a fake designed to deceive you and your friends and associates into believing you have something real. And in this case, the bike may well be of unknown origin, using poor manufacturing techniques and may well be unsafe to ride... it is, after all, made for appearances only.
I am wondering when a bike is going to appear with a major spelling mistake in the name emblazoned on the side of it. Spcialized? Bianci? Treck?
Would you buy a counterfeit Rolex watch from a vendor on the streets of Hong Kong for a 10th of the price of the real one? Safe in the knowledge that it would look good for about a week before the gold plate started rubbing off. And the movement stopped working when you went swimming with it on?
The watch is not going to risk your life, for sure, but the same things applies to a bike that looks like and is labelled like a proper mainstream bike... it is a fake designed to deceive you and your friends and associates into believing you have something real. And in this case, the bike may well be of unknown origin, using poor manufacturing techniques and may well be unsafe to ride... it is, after all, made for appearances only.
I am wondering when a bike is going to appear with a major spelling mistake in the name emblazoned on the side of it. Spcialized? Bianci? Treck?
07-04-15, 09:27 AM
#114
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07-04-15, 09:57 AM
#116
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Bottom line is if you want to have peace of mind buy from reputable seller, who stands behind what they sell. Performance & Nashbar who come to mind, they both hasve been around over 20 yeasrs as companies that back what they sell for life of ownership.
Sorry to say a warranty be it a hand shake or legal doucement drawn by a team of lawyer is only as good as the people honoring it.
We purchased a couch & love seat from a big local chain furnature store, 9 months laters we began have problems with the cushions, and frame. Company sent their representative to our home, and in the end it was called normal wear. Warranty booklet was worth no more than the paper it was written on. Lets say I am on a mission when someone mentions furnature, I say don't buy from that company, because.
Sorry to say a warranty be it a hand shake or legal doucement drawn by a team of lawyer is only as good as the people honoring it.
We purchased a couch & love seat from a big local chain furnature store, 9 months laters we began have problems with the cushions, and frame. Company sent their representative to our home, and in the end it was called normal wear. Warranty booklet was worth no more than the paper it was written on. Lets say I am on a mission when someone mentions furnature, I say don't buy from that company, because.
07-05-15, 03:59 PM
#119
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Take it easy, let's not get personal.
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07-05-15, 08:33 PM
#120
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He keeps saying vague things but does not want to explain. Apparently they own people like me who buy into the stereotypes. Who are they, what the stereotypes are, and what characterizes people like me have yet to be explained.
07-12-15, 08:12 AM
#122
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Exactly. If someone is selling a counterfeit frame, they are already breaking a lot of laws (regarding patents, trademarks, and copyrights). So I wouldn't trust that their process is up to snuff to build a reliable frame. It may be possible that some counterfeits are well made, but should you trust someone already selling an illegal frame?
GH
GH
07-12-15, 08:18 AM
#123
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The conclusion I draw is that the counterfeit frame tested does not have the same physical properties as the frame it is claiming to replicate. That is the only conclusion I draw straight from the article. I also believe that this would be the case for most/all counterfeit frames (based on my experience with other counterfeit items and this admittedly small sample size), but that is my opinion/belief, not something to be concluded directly from the article or something I would try to pass as fact.
note use of the plural
07-12-15, 09:11 AM
#124
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You have to admit anything sold as a counterfeit is a risk. Would I buy one, though? I might, if I felt comfortable about it. Any good product has online, independent, reviews to reference. The truth is that when working with carbon fiber, it takes no more skill to build a counterfeit than the real thing. It's the specs, the types of fabrics, the layup, the layers etc etc, that make it ride the way it does.
So why is a knock off frame a risk? Because even the best brands in the world have a risk of failure. And I know the discipline of testing that occurs with the best brands to avert liability and those disciplines that aren't adhered to with no name brands.
So what is the risk of failure even with all the tremendous R&D of top brands? It happens in spite of all the due diligence. Guess what happens without this discipline? A lot more failures.
Every top brand has had recalls due to frame failures. When do top makers implement a recall? Generally when people have gotten hurt. This is when large companies find out about discrepant frames and weigh the cost of the recall which can be massive versus the potentially greater cost of liability and risk to sink the brand.
In the case of Specialized, they had fork failures on their top race bikes. Procedure was to remove the fork at a Specialized bike shop and ship the forks back to Specialized for X raying and risk assessment. Not all forks were bad and its hard to determine what forks are good versus bad. Recalls can also occur and in fact are common even when there is an interaction with customer poor practices. In other words, using the proprietary expansion plug with a Specialized bike incorrectly by placing spacers above the stem which causes the steerer to be unsupported at the base of the stem where stress is the highest...Specialized has to design for this common contingency which they do.
How much due diligence do knock off brands perform? Little or none. Your body and the choices we make. Not all products are safety critical. Bicycle framesets are.
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