Building a road bike: Still worth it to go rim over disc?
06-28-23, 09:48 AM
#126
Noob Bee
Thread Starter
You seem more focused on cost, so maybe you should just get a low cost rim-braked frame and not worry about it. Another thing to consider (glancing at the frame you linked above) besides brakes is how comfortable you want this bike to be. That looks like it could be a real bone-shaker with thick aero seat post and full height seat stays etc. Especially if tyre clearance is limited and it probably is. Do you actually want a full-on aero bike?
Your riding conditions sound like they strongly favour a comfortable disc braked bike with relatively wide tyres. Your logic about rim-brakes suiting your cautious style of riding seems a bit dubious. It's like you are trying to convince yourself that the low cost and lower brake performance are a win-win rather than a compromise. The cost saving is genuine, but the rest seems like a mind game. If you are doing 50 kph and some ******** pulls out of their driveway unexpectedly then a few metres saved on braking could make a big difference.
Your riding conditions sound like they strongly favour a comfortable disc braked bike with relatively wide tyres. Your logic about rim-brakes suiting your cautious style of riding seems a bit dubious. It's like you are trying to convince yourself that the low cost and lower brake performance are a win-win rather than a compromise. The cost saving is genuine, but the rest seems like a mind game. If you are doing 50 kph and some ******** pulls out of their driveway unexpectedly then a few metres saved on braking could make a big difference.
However, you're right in your second point to: the conditions here favor disc brakes and wider tyres, While I haven't had an accident yet because of rim brake failure (touch wood), I took a ride this morning in the rain and was more cognizant of performance degradation. It was, as noted, substantially worse than dry, particularly on descents. It's remarkable to me on some level that I just never paid attention to how different it feels between wet and dry conditions on rim brakes, but that may be a byproduct of having only been a commuter cyclist and rarely gone above 20 KPH.
So this sense has stopped me from pulling the trigger on that rim brake frame. While it would feel good to tell myself and the missus "awesome frame for under 200 quid/200 USD!" she would be quite angry at me if it's what put me in the hospital.
Or worse.
As for the aero bike thing...I'm kinda bike-curious about aero to be honest. Not sure if it's going to be super comfy, but unfortunately I live in a place where road cycling is far less popular than mtb (which for some reason I just never could get into. Not sure why, as most of my friends do MTB...suppose I'm just rather contrarian). So trying a bunch of different frames is difficult. Also doesn't help that I'm a fair bit smaller than most of my road cycling buddies (both in terms of height and weight), so I can't even borrow theirs and get a good sense for what the bike "feels" like.
So it might be comfortable, it might not be...only one way to find out. N+1 if not.
06-28-23, 10:02 AM
#127
just another gosling
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 19,539
Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004
Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3891 Post(s)
Liked 1,940 Times
in
1,385 Posts
In the video summary he said that he lost a lot of time in the wet on rim brakes from lack of confidence in braking. His psychological comfort level was clearly higher with disc brakes. That’s pretty much in line with my own experiences. If you are confident in your braking performance then you are likely to ride a bit faster. Same with tyre grip. Worst case scenario would be poor braking and poor tyre grip. That would be a white knuckle descent!
But it all depends on where you are riding. If there are no high speed or steep technical descents then braking performance is much less critical. But then again you never know when an emergency stop might be needed.
Unless cost is an issue I don’t really see a strong case for rim brakes on a new high-end road bike. It’s certainly going to restrict your options of frame, wheels and components.
But it all depends on where you are riding. If there are no high speed or steep technical descents then braking performance is much less critical. But then again you never know when an emergency stop might be needed.
Unless cost is an issue I don’t really see a strong case for rim brakes on a new high-end road bike. It’s certainly going to restrict your options of frame, wheels and components.
Braking tests in Bicycle Quarterly, back in the day of all rim-braked bikes, showed that the fastest stops were made by only using the front brake, applied hard enough to almost lift the rear wheel. It seems like the riders' concentration on that was better if they ignored the rear brake. So that's pretty much as good as braking gets in the dry.
__________________
Results matter
Results matter
Likes For Carbonfiberboy:
06-28-23, 10:17 AM
#128
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,456
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4420 Post(s)
Liked 4,873 Times
in
3,017 Posts
As I stated in an earlier post, if rim brakes were inherently dangerous then I would probably have died some time in the last 4 decades.
06-28-23, 10:35 AM
#129
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Posts: 2,880
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1461 Post(s)
Liked 1,486 Times
in
870 Posts
- While there are limited wheel options for a rim brake bike, there is an abundance of options. Relative to disc wheels there may be fewer rim wheel options, but its not like it is a struggle to find rim brake wheels at multiple price ranges.
- Limited groupset options is a genuine concern/frustration for sure. Well, limited higher level groupset options is what we should both say, since the lower levels will continue to offer rim brake compatibility. I can still buy a new Ultegra r8000 group for a decent price so that would get me many many years of use out of a rim brake frame.
- Narrow tire clearance really isnt a concern to me. My main road bike has rim brakes and can easily clear a 35mm tire, it is custom and built by me so that was part of the design. As for stock frame clearance...my wife's 2015 Cannondale Synapse clears 28mm tires, my oldest's 2019 Domane clears 28mm tires, and one of my other kids has a 2021 'BrandX' frame from CRC that clears 28mm and could handle larger. All are rim brake. Is 28mm no longer wide enough? I happen to ride 32mm tires on my main road bike, but have 28mm on a couple other road bikes and almost everyone I see at competitive group rides have 28mm tires with some using 25mm. If I had a frame that could only clear 23mm tires then sure that would be another story, but a ton of road frames over the last decade clear 28mm tires and those just arent narrow.
- Rim brakes are not as good as hydraulic disc brakes in the rain and/or on long steep descents. For the vast vast majority of people who ride a bike, neither of those scenarios is a concern. Most people dont ride their bike when it is raining. Most people dont go screaming down steep mountain descents. For those who do ride in the rain and/or do ride long steep descents, yes the option of good hydraulic disc brakes is really nice as it improves confidence for sure.
With all that out of the way, to actually answer your question- why do people still want the old stuff?
I genuinely think you are partially trolling by asking this. You dont troll though, which is why I have typed out balanced responses so far and will try to do the same for this question.
First- people wanting 'the old stuff' in cycling is no different from many other hobbies. Why do people collect vinyl? Why do people restore old cars? Why do people play old game consoles? Etc etc etc. New cars are better/faster/safer. New music devices are smaller, easier to use, more portable, etc. New game consoles are more immersive, faster, clearer, etc. And yet, there is a big appeal for the older stuff. Same goes for bikes. An entire forum on this site, one that is extremely active, is the c&v forum.
Second- why are you riding old tech acoustic bikes still? The new stuff uses electricity and is better- you can go faster and longer. Why do you want the old stuff? I say this with a bit of tongue in cheek, but it is also genuine- if you take the position that new tech is what people need to want, then why arent you following suit? You will likely claim there is a fundamental difference between ebike cycling and acoustic cycling and since they are then different things, you are not required to follow your own view. But really, its all just cycling and there is no difference. You are simply choosing to not use the latest tech and your reason really isnt important.
Apply that to your question in red.
- Limited groupset options is a genuine concern/frustration for sure. Well, limited higher level groupset options is what we should both say, since the lower levels will continue to offer rim brake compatibility. I can still buy a new Ultegra r8000 group for a decent price so that would get me many many years of use out of a rim brake frame.
- Narrow tire clearance really isnt a concern to me. My main road bike has rim brakes and can easily clear a 35mm tire, it is custom and built by me so that was part of the design. As for stock frame clearance...my wife's 2015 Cannondale Synapse clears 28mm tires, my oldest's 2019 Domane clears 28mm tires, and one of my other kids has a 2021 'BrandX' frame from CRC that clears 28mm and could handle larger. All are rim brake. Is 28mm no longer wide enough? I happen to ride 32mm tires on my main road bike, but have 28mm on a couple other road bikes and almost everyone I see at competitive group rides have 28mm tires with some using 25mm. If I had a frame that could only clear 23mm tires then sure that would be another story, but a ton of road frames over the last decade clear 28mm tires and those just arent narrow.
- Rim brakes are not as good as hydraulic disc brakes in the rain and/or on long steep descents. For the vast vast majority of people who ride a bike, neither of those scenarios is a concern. Most people dont ride their bike when it is raining. Most people dont go screaming down steep mountain descents. For those who do ride in the rain and/or do ride long steep descents, yes the option of good hydraulic disc brakes is really nice as it improves confidence for sure.
With all that out of the way, to actually answer your question- why do people still want the old stuff?
I genuinely think you are partially trolling by asking this. You dont troll though, which is why I have typed out balanced responses so far and will try to do the same for this question.
First- people wanting 'the old stuff' in cycling is no different from many other hobbies. Why do people collect vinyl? Why do people restore old cars? Why do people play old game consoles? Etc etc etc. New cars are better/faster/safer. New music devices are smaller, easier to use, more portable, etc. New game consoles are more immersive, faster, clearer, etc. And yet, there is a big appeal for the older stuff. Same goes for bikes. An entire forum on this site, one that is extremely active, is the c&v forum.
Second- why are you riding old tech acoustic bikes still? The new stuff uses electricity and is better- you can go faster and longer. Why do you want the old stuff? I say this with a bit of tongue in cheek, but it is also genuine- if you take the position that new tech is what people need to want, then why arent you following suit? You will likely claim there is a fundamental difference between ebike cycling and acoustic cycling and since they are then different things, you are not required to follow your own view. But really, its all just cycling and there is no difference. You are simply choosing to not use the latest tech and your reason really isnt important.
Apply that to your question in red.
To reiterate - the context of my comments (and premise of this thread) is brand new bikes, not used bikes, not classic/vintage. I fully understand why people desire to own and restore classic/vintage bikes, cars, etc. I own older rim brake bikes and have no plans to get rid of them, will likely install new rim brake groupsets and wheels on them in the future, etc. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about going into a bike shop in 2023 and seeing a bunch of new bikes and thinking "Those bikes look awesome but I'm not buying one because they have disc brakes - instead I'm going to limit my choices to new bikes with rim brakes".
I don't understand why someone would do this. To me, rim brakes are not like steel frames, or leather saddles or polished chrome hardware or tubular tires or whatever other retro vintage stuff wizzes your cheese. I absolutely disagree with the comparison of rim brakes and vinyl records. Vinyl records provide some nostalgia factor for sure, but they also are sonically superior to digital music and provide a tangible way to experience music that digital streaming fails to provide. I also prefer tube amps and analog watches and still get an actual newspaper delivered to my door every Sunday. Putting rim brakes into these categories seems ridiculous to me. There might be twinge of nostalgia that comes with rim brakes, but on a brand new bike I don't see how this translates.
I commute on an e-bike. It's way better for that purpose than an "acoustic" bike. It also has disc brakes, because they're way better too.
06-28-23, 10:50 AM
#130
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 13,447
Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4236 Post(s)
Liked 2,949 Times
in
1,808 Posts
Imagine you have a whole lot of high end rim brake wheels for a lot of different situations and don't want to have to replace them all. I suppose, if they're at least 10 years old you might have to replace them anyway due to hub incompatibility, but that's the main reason I can think of. You ride somewhere flattish and only in good weather and have a variety of depths of Zipps or whatever and don't want to drop 10 grand replacing them all.
__________________
Bikes: 1996 Eddy Merckx Titanium EX, 1989/90 Colnago Super(issimo?) Piu(?),1990 Concorde Aquila(hit by car while riding), others in build queue "when I get the time"
Bikes: 1996 Eddy Merckx Titanium EX, 1989/90 Colnago Super(issimo?) Piu(?),
Likes For himespau:
06-28-23, 11:02 AM
#131
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Posts: 2,880
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1461 Post(s)
Liked 1,486 Times
in
870 Posts
Imagine you have a whole lot of high end rim brake wheels for a lot of different situations and don't want to have to replace them all. I suppose, if they're at least 10 years old you might have to replace them anyway due to hub incompatibility, but that's the main reason I can think of. You ride somewhere flattish and only in good weather and have a variety of depths of Zipps or whatever and don't want to drop 10 grand replacing them all.
06-28-23, 11:29 AM
#132
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 13,447
Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4236 Post(s)
Liked 2,949 Times
in
1,808 Posts
That was the rationale I have to the OP as to why he should stick with rim brakes: if he already has a bunch of rim brake wheels and only has rim brake bikes and values interchangeability. You wanted to know why someone would, in 2023, go to a store and buy a new bike with rim brakes. Same answer. That's just about it. Otherwise, I'd probably go with a disk bike too. Of course, I wouldn't go to a store and buy a new bike with all the pretty vintage bikes out there (and why I just ordered some deep rim brake rims from Light Bicycle to lace up to some DT Swiss 240 and 180 hubs I have in the parts bin), but that's a different topic.
__________________
Bikes: 1996 Eddy Merckx Titanium EX, 1989/90 Colnago Super(issimo?) Piu(?),1990 Concorde Aquila(hit by car while riding), others in build queue "when I get the time"
Bikes: 1996 Eddy Merckx Titanium EX, 1989/90 Colnago Super(issimo?) Piu(?),
06-28-23, 11:33 AM
#133
Noob Bee
Thread Starter
That was the rationale I have to the OP as to why he should stick with rim brakes: if he already has a bunch of rim brake wheels and only has rim brake bikes and values interchangeability. You wanted to know why someone would, in 2023, go to a store and buy a new bike with rim brakes. Same answer. That's just about it. Otherwise, I'd probably go with a disk bike too. Of course, I wouldn't go to a store and buy a new bike with all the pretty vintage bikes out there (and why I just ordered some deep rim brake rims from Light Bicycle to lace up to some DT Swiss 240 and 180 hubs I have in the parts bin), but that's a different topic.
06-28-23, 12:16 PM
#134
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,456
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4420 Post(s)
Liked 4,873 Times
in
3,017 Posts
As you can probably guess, I do not have a a pile of rim brake bikes and wheels in my garage. Just two wheelsets, both attached to bikes already, none of whom I would accuse of being worth moving from bike to bike. I can see your logic. Probably why it's best to go disc, as I'm not "losing" much by way of what I have already (which again, isn't much).
But then again if you are on a tight budget and not too concerned about future-proofing you will get a higher end bike for your money with rim brakes. But it might not be the best bike for your riding conditions.
If I were you I would concentrate on choosing the best frameset for your needs regardless of cost and then get it rolling on whatever budget you have left. You can always upgrade components later on.
06-28-23, 12:27 PM
#135
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 5,381
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2489 Post(s)
Liked 2,958 Times
in
1,681 Posts
To me, rim brakes are not like steel frames, or leather saddles or polished chrome hardware or tubular tires or whatever other retro vintage stuff wizzes your cheese. I absolutely disagree with the comparison of rim brakes and vinyl records. Vinyl records provide some nostalgia factor for sure, but they also are sonically superior to digital music and provide a tangible way to experience music that digital streaming fails to provide. I also prefer tube amps and analog watches and still get an actual newspaper delivered to my door every Sunday.
The other side of the coin, and one possible negative of disc brakes that I haven't seen discussed, is that some less-experienced riders may become overly confident in their disc brakes. Like the people with four-wheel drive you see on interstates in blizzards---the ones who rip past you at full speed only to flip into a ditch around the next corner.
You're right that the comparison between rim brakes and vinyl records isn't entirely defensible. But CD's did take over the market from vinyl almost as rapidly as disc brakes have taken over from rim brakes. I guess marketing science has improved the techniques by which consumers are persuaded to dump the stuff they have that works fine for the newer stuff that works a bit better.
By the way, I have several thousand LP's, hundreds of 45's, and some pretty expensive vintage audio equipment, and I enjoy playing them while admiring the record cover artwork, but I'm under no illusion that the sound of vinyl is superior to that of digital music.
The last straw for me was the recent debunking of the claim that the frequency range of digital is inferior to that of vinyl, which claim was based on analyses showing that records contain frequencies at and well above 20,000 Hz. Seemed persuasive, until a subsequent analysis revealed that those high frequencies were not present in the source (i.e., the master tape) and that the same frequencies were present in the "silent" grooves between songs on the record.
The dynamic range of vinyl is more truncated, too, because of the physical limitations of the medium.
Unless you're talking about dbx Discs. I have a few of those, along with the dbx decoder, and they sound stunningly good. Easily equal to digital in frequency range and dynamic range, and far better than conventional vinyl. It's a shame that the CD revolution came along when it did, since dbx Disc might well have taken over the market otherwise. As it is, only a few dozen dbx Disc records were ever released.
Here's a terrific video on dbx Disc:
06-28-23, 01:01 PM
#136
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,456
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4420 Post(s)
Liked 4,873 Times
in
3,017 Posts
The other side of the coin, and one possible negative of disc brakes that I haven't seen discussed, is that some less-experienced riders may become overly confident in their disc brakes. Like the people with four-wheel drive you see on interstates in blizzards---the ones who rip past you at full speed only to flip into a ditch around the next corner.
Likes For PeteHski:
06-28-23, 02:24 PM
#137
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 5,381
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2489 Post(s)
Liked 2,958 Times
in
1,681 Posts
I always struggle to buy into that risk compensation argument. You can apply it to all sorts of things. Do you really want lower braking performance in bad weather? Do you really want less tyre grip when caught in a blizzard? Where I live winter tyres are not mandatory and as soon as it snows there are loads of pile ups and cars in ditches. I fit winter tyres and have never had a problem. IME idiots are idiots regardless of their equipment and vice versa.
The most annoying current risk compensation argument, though, is the claim that bike helmets are dangerous because riders feel too well protected. Reductio ad absurdum, the safest riders of all are the helmetless brakeless fixie ninjas without foot retention.
Likes For Trakhak:
06-28-23, 02:53 PM
#138
Senior Member
I am too considering a new (old stock) rim brake frame and have been watching this thread with interest. I preface my comments below with the observations that my local riding area is dry and relatively flat, with no long alpine descents.
The rim vs. disc brakes debate here reminds me a little of the handwringing over rim-braked CF wheels, which had unduly deterred me from upgrading to CF wheels for a while. However, after my first few (squealing) descents without my CF wheels assploding into melted strips of carbon fiber, I just got on with the increased comfort and sexiness of wider and deeper wheels.
Look, I am not disputing that disc brakes have better stopping power and modulation. But most of us did just fine prior to the advent of disc brakes, just as most of us drive around daily at much higher speeds without fitting the most powerful brakes available on our motor vehicles, right? Or are we all running Alcon or Brembo front brakes with (at least) 4 piston calipers and giant 355 mm brake rotors?
The rim vs. disc brakes debate here reminds me a little of the handwringing over rim-braked CF wheels, which had unduly deterred me from upgrading to CF wheels for a while. However, after my first few (squealing) descents without my CF wheels assploding into melted strips of carbon fiber, I just got on with the increased comfort and sexiness of wider and deeper wheels.
Look, I am not disputing that disc brakes have better stopping power and modulation. But most of us did just fine prior to the advent of disc brakes, just as most of us drive around daily at much higher speeds without fitting the most powerful brakes available on our motor vehicles, right? Or are we all running Alcon or Brembo front brakes with (at least) 4 piston calipers and giant 355 mm brake rotors?
I could ask the same question as to why performance road bikes do not feature dropper posts and front suspension forks. Why not? It would result in a plusher ride, and the dropper would allow you to descend 30% safer.
And before the howling of the bike industry apologists or salesmen starts, you actually do want a 2013 team-level road bike over the equivalent 2023 version, and not just because it is much much cheaper. You don't want if for misguided nostalgia or stick-it-to-the-man bike industry protest or whatever. You want the 2013 bike because it is lighter and faster particularly on the climbs, where it really matters.
Besides rim brakes, the other advantage of the older bike is that it does NOT have:
- PITA internal cable routing, which is a massive PITA to work on. I do every week, and they can be a costly nightmare. Only advantage of internal: it looks KEWL. I guess.
- PITA thru-axles. The only reason for thru-axles was that the (lawyers of) the bike industry deemed that the riding public was too incompetent to use a QR. Thru axles are not actually axles, so they don't make the system any 'stiffer' and they actually create less retentive forces than a properly applied QR.
- Fat tires. Why would anyone who is cyclist svelte and needs to keep up with the pack want 32mm tires? The fat tires may save you 2 watts per tire over a 23mm if inflated to 100 psi. But you don't inflate the 32s to 100, you actually inflate them to 80 psi or less. Then, the fat tires feature a big increase in rolling resistance. Plus they are unacceptably heavy and un-aero.
- Tubeless: why?? Flatting out every ride? Then maybe.
- 1 x drivetrains. Seriously? You limit your gearing range and options, and forced to use a pie-plate sized cassette because shifting a front derailleur is so so hard?
06-28-23, 02:53 PM
#139
Method to My Madness
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: Orange County, California
Posts: 3,664
Bikes: Trek FX 2, Cannondale Synapse, Cannondale CAAD4, Santa Cruz Stigmata GRX
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1949 Post(s)
Liked 1,473 Times
in
1,020 Posts
Yes, if you have determined that you want to stick with road cycling, and thus are planning to buy your first proper (i.e., decent) road bike, but have some budgetary constraints, then buying a gently-used disc brake bike is probably the way to go (especially in view of your riding environment), with more upgrade options.
06-28-23, 03:03 PM
#140
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,456
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4420 Post(s)
Liked 4,873 Times
in
3,017 Posts
You're right, of course, and yet those 4x4's end up in ditches sometimes. And there's the reverse: back in the '80s, when the Japanese companies had begun designing brakes that didn't require a death grip for stopping from speed, you had U.S.-based Campy reps explaining that their Record brakes were meant to be "speed modulators" and that a brake with a more immediate response could cause crashes in pelotons.
The most annoying current risk compensation argument, though, is the claim that bike helmets are dangerous because riders feel too well protected. Reductio ad absurdum, the safest riders of all are the helmetless brakeless fixie ninjas without foot retention.
The most annoying current risk compensation argument, though, is the claim that bike helmets are dangerous because riders feel too well protected. Reductio ad absurdum, the safest riders of all are the helmetless brakeless fixie ninjas without foot retention.
Body armour for DH mtb is another one for the risk compensator crowd. And how about seatbelts and airbags in cars? Shouldn’t we fit a big spike in the centre of the steering wheel instead to make us drive more cautiously?
Yeah I’ll take my chances with the best brakes and a helmet thanks. I always wear gloves too as the pain from scraped palms is one of the worst memories from my youth!
Likes For PeteHski:
06-28-23, 03:14 PM
#141
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,456
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4420 Post(s)
Liked 4,873 Times
in
3,017 Posts
Finally: someone with a high 'get-it factor' and provides a useful analogy. You don't want discs on a performance road bike because it is overkill. And it is not free overkill, because discs add 2 pounds of unnecessary weight to the bike, particularly the wheels where you want to shed as much weight as possible.
I could ask the same question as to why performance road bikes do not feature dropper posts and front suspension forks. Why not? It would result in a plusher ride, and the dropper would allow you to descend 30% safer.
And before the howling of the bike industry apologists or salesmen starts, you actually do want a 2013 team-level road bike over the equivalent 2023 version, and not just because it is much much cheaper. You don't want if for misguided nostalgia or stick-it-to-the-man bike industry protest or whatever. You want the 2013 bike because it is lighter and faster particularly on the climbs, where it really matters.
Besides rim brakes, the other advantage of the older bike is that it does NOT have:
I could ask the same question as to why performance road bikes do not feature dropper posts and front suspension forks. Why not? It would result in a plusher ride, and the dropper would allow you to descend 30% safer.
And before the howling of the bike industry apologists or salesmen starts, you actually do want a 2013 team-level road bike over the equivalent 2023 version, and not just because it is much much cheaper. You don't want if for misguided nostalgia or stick-it-to-the-man bike industry protest or whatever. You want the 2013 bike because it is lighter and faster particularly on the climbs, where it really matters.
Besides rim brakes, the other advantage of the older bike is that it does NOT have:
- PITA internal cable routing, which is a massive PITA to work on. I do every week, and they can be a costly nightmare. Only advantage of internal: it looks KEWL. I guess.
- PITA thru-axles. The only reason for thru-axles was that the (lawyers of) the bike industry deemed that the riding public was too incompetent to use a QR. Thru axles are not actually axles, so they don't make the system any 'stiffer' and they actually create less retentive forces than a properly applied QR.
- Fat tires. Why would anyone who is cyclist svelte and needs to keep up with the pack want 32mm tires? The fat tires may save you 2 watts per tire over a 23mm if inflated to 100 psi. But you don't inflate the 32s to 100, you actually inflate them to 80 psi or less. Then, the fat tires feature a big increase in rolling resistance. Plus they are unacceptably heavy and un-aero.
- Tubeless: why?? Flatting out every ride? Then maybe.
- 1 x drivetrains. Seriously? You limit your gearing range and options, and forced to use a pie-plate sized cassette because shifting a front derailleur is so so hard?
Likes For PeteHski:
06-28-23, 04:57 PM
#142
Noob Bee
Thread Starter
Yes, if you have determined that you want to stick with road cycling, and thus are planning to buy your first proper (i.e., decent) road bike, but have some budgetary constraints, then buying a gently-used disc brake bike is probably the way to go (especially in view of your riding environment), with more upgrade options.
So right now my first "big-boy" bike build is shaping up to be:
1. A good all-around carbon frame w/ disc brakes
2. Shimano Ultegra Di2 w/ sprint shifters (because I like nice things, and even if it's not arguably the most practical, it's something that would make me feel good!)
3. Pro Vibe Aero Alloy Handlebar 40cm
4. Crankbrothers Quattro Pedals
06-29-23, 06:35 AM
#143
Junior Member
I went from a bike with 6800 Ultegra and rim brakes to a bike with 8100 Ultegra and hydraulic disc brakes. I like both, for different reasons, and also have a couple things that bother me about each.
The main advantage I see of rim brakes is that if you're mainly riding in dry conditions without major curved descents, they require extremely minimal thought or maintenance and simply fade into the background, providing all the stopping force you need without drama. Installing and removing a wheel is super simple and there's plenty of clearance to avoid any rubbing, ever. The disadvantage is that choices for a frame and brakes that support wider tires than 28s or maybe 30s is very limited, particularly for the big bike brands. Yes, they also do not brake nearly as effectively as discs in the rain, and if you want carbon rims, they're probably going to eventually wear down (that could be a very long time if you aren't doing major descents.
On the disc side, for me the big advantage is in new bike selection and ability to run wider tires (I'm on a Fairlight Strael running 35s). I also do like the modulation and consistent braking force in all conditions. I don't think the weight or aero penalty is anywhere near what some (or really one) people here claim. I do feel like they are more of a pain to setup and the pad to rotor clearance (at least in my experience with road/gravel bikes) isn't sufficient. There is way too much manufacturing tolerance accepted in frames/brake components, which means different discs on different wheels might not always be in exactly the same place, and with such minimal pad to rotor clearance, caliper mounts have to allow adjustment to account for this. Even having everything setup perfect, there is still occasionally some small change that results in annoying disc rub. That usually sorts itself out with a couple applications of the brake, but it something I never got with rim brakes. Also in wet conditions, yes the stopping power is great, but water and road grit get into the system causing more noise and can contaminate the surfaces sometimes causing horrible howling noise.
Overall, probably 95% of the time I'm happy with my road discs. But when I ride in the wet, I find the noises more annoying than I find the additional stopping power needed. If Fairlight offered the Strael in a rim brake setup that still took 35s I'd probably be riding that right now. I love the fit and feel of the bike, and I don't ride in significant rain too often so I'm not looking to change it, but when I swapped to a new wheelset and had to adjust the calipers, and when I ride in the rain, I'm annoyed in ways I never was with rim brakes.
The main advantage I see of rim brakes is that if you're mainly riding in dry conditions without major curved descents, they require extremely minimal thought or maintenance and simply fade into the background, providing all the stopping force you need without drama. Installing and removing a wheel is super simple and there's plenty of clearance to avoid any rubbing, ever. The disadvantage is that choices for a frame and brakes that support wider tires than 28s or maybe 30s is very limited, particularly for the big bike brands. Yes, they also do not brake nearly as effectively as discs in the rain, and if you want carbon rims, they're probably going to eventually wear down (that could be a very long time if you aren't doing major descents.
On the disc side, for me the big advantage is in new bike selection and ability to run wider tires (I'm on a Fairlight Strael running 35s). I also do like the modulation and consistent braking force in all conditions. I don't think the weight or aero penalty is anywhere near what some (or really one) people here claim. I do feel like they are more of a pain to setup and the pad to rotor clearance (at least in my experience with road/gravel bikes) isn't sufficient. There is way too much manufacturing tolerance accepted in frames/brake components, which means different discs on different wheels might not always be in exactly the same place, and with such minimal pad to rotor clearance, caliper mounts have to allow adjustment to account for this. Even having everything setup perfect, there is still occasionally some small change that results in annoying disc rub. That usually sorts itself out with a couple applications of the brake, but it something I never got with rim brakes. Also in wet conditions, yes the stopping power is great, but water and road grit get into the system causing more noise and can contaminate the surfaces sometimes causing horrible howling noise.
Overall, probably 95% of the time I'm happy with my road discs. But when I ride in the wet, I find the noises more annoying than I find the additional stopping power needed. If Fairlight offered the Strael in a rim brake setup that still took 35s I'd probably be riding that right now. I love the fit and feel of the bike, and I don't ride in significant rain too often so I'm not looking to change it, but when I swapped to a new wheelset and had to adjust the calipers, and when I ride in the rain, I'm annoyed in ways I never was with rim brakes.
Likes For NumbersGuy:
06-29-23, 09:49 AM
#144
Junior Member
Take my experience for what it is worth (205lbs, 80% of my riding is up and down steep hills)
I have been MTB'ing for 30+ years and got into road riding late in my game in 2015. Coming from MTB my mentality was "disc brake or die". My first 4 road bikes were disc (never ridden a rim brake road bike) and my 5th was a custom I received late last year. The custom was......rim brakes. The bike is 100% for road, 99.9% dry conditions and if I were to go in the dirt I will MTB. My new setup has eeBrakes, compressionless housing and textured carbon rims and 30mm tubeless tires.
The transition from disc to rim took all of 5 minutes and I can honestly say I have not once wished I was riding discs on a single descent yet. The fact I don't even think about my brakes anymore is a massive improvement.
My issue with discs were not: difficult/extra maintenance, weight, cost, etc. My issue was the tiny calipers, tiny pads, tiny rotors (160mm, all Dura Ace stuff). There is a particular descent I go down once a week that is 16-20%, terribly busted up concrete, lots of cars, never ending road construction and other obstacles all of which removes any possibility of finessing the brakes on the way down. That hill would cause the brakes/rotors to go into thermal meltdown mode in seconds and without exception, would warp the **** out of both rotors which would lead to rotors pinging the rest of the ride. This situation bothered me enough to try rim brakes, which don't have the same issue. Again, I am over 200lbs and I suspect somebody that is 160lbs would have a very different experience in the same conditions. On the complete opposite end of the spectrum, my MTB w/4 piston brakes while using only front w/200mm front rotor is completely unaffected on the same hill.
In summary, discs generally work fine, rim brakes generally work fine and setup is key on both. While crusing the coast in a giant pack of MAMIL's @ 19.75 MPH I begin to wonder how/why every rim vs. disc brake thread on the internet gets to 10+ pages of debate, because without exception, the entire pack of MAMIL's is always able to safely stop themselves at each and every stop sign, some albeit louder than others.
I have been MTB'ing for 30+ years and got into road riding late in my game in 2015. Coming from MTB my mentality was "disc brake or die". My first 4 road bikes were disc (never ridden a rim brake road bike) and my 5th was a custom I received late last year. The custom was......rim brakes. The bike is 100% for road, 99.9% dry conditions and if I were to go in the dirt I will MTB. My new setup has eeBrakes, compressionless housing and textured carbon rims and 30mm tubeless tires.
The transition from disc to rim took all of 5 minutes and I can honestly say I have not once wished I was riding discs on a single descent yet. The fact I don't even think about my brakes anymore is a massive improvement.
My issue with discs were not: difficult/extra maintenance, weight, cost, etc. My issue was the tiny calipers, tiny pads, tiny rotors (160mm, all Dura Ace stuff). There is a particular descent I go down once a week that is 16-20%, terribly busted up concrete, lots of cars, never ending road construction and other obstacles all of which removes any possibility of finessing the brakes on the way down. That hill would cause the brakes/rotors to go into thermal meltdown mode in seconds and without exception, would warp the **** out of both rotors which would lead to rotors pinging the rest of the ride. This situation bothered me enough to try rim brakes, which don't have the same issue. Again, I am over 200lbs and I suspect somebody that is 160lbs would have a very different experience in the same conditions. On the complete opposite end of the spectrum, my MTB w/4 piston brakes while using only front w/200mm front rotor is completely unaffected on the same hill.
In summary, discs generally work fine, rim brakes generally work fine and setup is key on both. While crusing the coast in a giant pack of MAMIL's @ 19.75 MPH I begin to wonder how/why every rim vs. disc brake thread on the internet gets to 10+ pages of debate, because without exception, the entire pack of MAMIL's is always able to safely stop themselves at each and every stop sign, some albeit louder than others.
Likes For matt92037:
06-29-23, 11:03 PM
#145
Method to My Madness
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: Orange County, California
Posts: 3,664
Bikes: Trek FX 2, Cannondale Synapse, Cannondale CAAD4, Santa Cruz Stigmata GRX
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1949 Post(s)
Liked 1,473 Times
in
1,020 Posts
There is a particular descent I go down once a week that is 16-20%, terribly busted up concrete, lots of cars, never ending road construction and other obstacles all of which removes any possibility of finessing the brakes on the way down. That hill would cause the brakes/rotors to go into thermal meltdown mode in seconds and without exception, would warp the **** out of both rotors which would lead to rotors pinging the rest of the ride.
06-30-23, 05:15 AM
#146
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,456
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4420 Post(s)
Liked 4,873 Times
in
3,017 Posts
My issue with discs were not: difficult/extra maintenance, weight, cost, etc. My issue was the tiny calipers, tiny pads, tiny rotors (160mm, all Dura Ace stuff). There is a particular descent I go down once a week that is 16-20%, terribly busted up concrete, lots of cars, never ending road construction and other obstacles all of which removes any possibility of finessing the brakes on the way down. That hill would cause the brakes/rotors to go into thermal meltdown mode in seconds and without exception, would warp the **** out of both rotors which would lead to rotors pinging the rest of the ride. This situation bothered me enough to try rim brakes, which don't have the same issue. Again, I am over 200lbs and I suspect somebody that is 160lbs would have a very different experience in the same conditions. On the complete opposite end of the spectrum, my MTB w/4 piston brakes while using only front w/200mm front rotor is completely unaffected on the same hill.
You don't mention how long your steep descents are (mine are relatively short, usually under 1 mile long), but something is not right if they are over-heating in a matter of seconds. That would require a lot of energy, which is usually only generated from either repeated aggressive high speed stops or prolonged brake dragging. But I guess you managed it somehow!
As a fellow mtb rider I also wondered about how well the relatively tiny road discs and pads would survive, but I've been pleasantly surprised. I thought pad wear might be excessive, but even that has been low for me. I'm getting 1000s of km on a set of pads, although I changed out my SRAM pads after a hardcore week in the Alps.
06-30-23, 07:46 AM
#147
Junior Member
Good question, the decent is less than a mile and the worst section where it is over 20% and you need to go really slow is only a 1/4 mile. Not what you would expect to be enough to cause an issue but for some reason it does. When it happened, it happened pretty quick. I also descend much longer downhills which are be 6-12% for 3 miles with no issues ever. Another data point was descending Mt. Diablo in the bay area. 10 miles down with a lot of twists and turns and the brakes didn’t break a sweat. Switching from Dura Ace discs to XTR discs and SwissStop Exotherm pads helped significantly but didn’t get rid of the problem completely.
Try and experiment, next time you are on a descent that is pushing 20%, modulate your speed back and forth (real quick back and forth) between 5mph and 15mph. In my case I think I found the limit of how much energy a small brake system can dump in that very specific situation. Otherwise road bike discs were never and issue for me and to my surprise rim brakes have not had any issues either.
Try and experiment, next time you are on a descent that is pushing 20%, modulate your speed back and forth (real quick back and forth) between 5mph and 15mph. In my case I think I found the limit of how much energy a small brake system can dump in that very specific situation. Otherwise road bike discs were never and issue for me and to my surprise rim brakes have not had any issues either.
I'm not disputing it, but that's an odd anecdote to understand. I'm a little lighter than you (around 185 lbs) and we have quite a few 20%+ local twisty, technical descents. I have one road bike with 140 mm discs (Shimano 105 R7000) and another with 160 mm discs (SRAM Force AXS). Neither have any issues with cooking the brakes on those descents, even dragging them the whole way down - which is often necessary on such steep grades and dodgy roads. The only time I've really cooked the brakes was in the Alps last year on high speed descents in the high mountains. I was using stock organic pads, when I should have really switched to sintered for those conditions. But apart from a bit of annoying squeal, they still worked fine.
You don't mention how long your steep descents are (mine are relatively short, usually under 1 mile long), but something is not right if they are over-heating in a matter of seconds. That would require a lot of energy, which is usually only generated from either repeated aggressive high speed stops or prolonged brake dragging. But I guess you managed it somehow!
As a fellow mtb rider I also wondered about how well the relatively tiny road discs and pads would survive, but I've been pleasantly surprised. I thought pad wear might be excessive, but even that has been low for me. I'm getting 1000s of km on a set of pads, although I changed out my SRAM pads after a hardcore week in the Alps.
You don't mention how long your steep descents are (mine are relatively short, usually under 1 mile long), but something is not right if they are over-heating in a matter of seconds. That would require a lot of energy, which is usually only generated from either repeated aggressive high speed stops or prolonged brake dragging. But I guess you managed it somehow!
As a fellow mtb rider I also wondered about how well the relatively tiny road discs and pads would survive, but I've been pleasantly surprised. I thought pad wear might be excessive, but even that has been low for me. I'm getting 1000s of km on a set of pads, although I changed out my SRAM pads after a hardcore week in the Alps.
06-30-23, 07:58 AM
#148
Junior Member
07-01-23, 07:12 PM
#149
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,764
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1109 Post(s)
Liked 1,200 Times
in
760 Posts
I have several bikes I love, but "only" two straight on road bikes I love, and both have rim brakes. One is a ~12 year old carbon fiber bike with Sram red 10 speed / rim brakes (does that make it older than that? I dunno). The other is a 96 titanium frame (in like new condition) also built up with Sram 10 speed rim brakes.
Which one do I travel with? The old Litespeed titanium. Two reasons: I do think that in the soft case I travel with, the titanium frame might be less likely to be damaged. But the far more important reason is that I will never be able to buy a new top quality carbon fiber rim brake bike frame, and I don't care to buy a used one of unknown history. I will always be able to find a good older titanium frame with rim brakes, and I feel comfortable inspecting and buying a used titanium bike.
Don't get me wrong, I am not a disc brake "hater" (in the black and white world many of you live in). They're great in on my gravel bike and make it easy to switch betwen relatively skinny tires (38mm) and relatively fat tires (50mm). But they don't stop me any better - for the riding I do - than my old canti-braked cross/gravel bike. Rim brakes are better, easier, and lighter for my usage. I hope I never have to give them up, but am sad that top quality CF frames have abandoned them.
Which one do I travel with? The old Litespeed titanium. Two reasons: I do think that in the soft case I travel with, the titanium frame might be less likely to be damaged. But the far more important reason is that I will never be able to buy a new top quality carbon fiber rim brake bike frame, and I don't care to buy a used one of unknown history. I will always be able to find a good older titanium frame with rim brakes, and I feel comfortable inspecting and buying a used titanium bike.
Don't get me wrong, I am not a disc brake "hater" (in the black and white world many of you live in). They're great in on my gravel bike and make it easy to switch betwen relatively skinny tires (38mm) and relatively fat tires (50mm). But they don't stop me any better - for the riding I do - than my old canti-braked cross/gravel bike. Rim brakes are better, easier, and lighter for my usage. I hope I never have to give them up, but am sad that top quality CF frames have abandoned them.
Last edited by Camilo; 07-01-23 at 07:15 PM.
Likes For Camilo:
07-01-23, 11:46 PM
#150
Steel is real
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Not far from Paris
Posts: 1,968
Bikes: 1992Giant Tourer,1992MeridaAlbon,1996Scapin,1998KonaKilaueua,1993Peugeot Prestige,1991RaleighTeamZ(to be upgraded),1998 Jamis Dragon,1992CTWallis(to be built),1998VettaTeam(to be built),1995Coppi(to be built),1993Grandis(to be built)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 671 Post(s)
Liked 979 Times
in
650 Posts