Velodrome for sale
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Velodrome for sale
The Boulder Valley Velodrome is for sale
For sale: $4.7M Boulder Valley Velodrome in Erie - Boulder Daily Camera
For sale: $4.7M Boulder Valley Velodrome in Erie - Boulder Daily Camera
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Crowd funding this thing would be awesome --- it'll never happen, but would still be awesome! A completely member owned and member invested facility
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I just saw this and know nothing about the owners or community- but as someone who just got certified there I'm very much not surprised. There are two critical design flaws to the track that I feel are absolutely impeding the culture and stunting the community around it.
While visiting the track is promoted / welcomed, the wayfinding is very odd and visitors arrive in a space where they mix with riders. Riders are tired, focused on bikes, and, sometimes, are annoyed with answering the same questions over and over again between efforts. What I observed was the riders having to act as ambassadors to the track contributed to several visitors feeling unwelcome- right after they saw a massive sign inviting them in. Some sort of info desk / greeter is probably necessary to orient visitors, it would also be beneficial if they circulated to the party deck instead of the infield.
The other issue is that the way the track is used is, in my opinion, completely unsafe. The combination of entering on the backfield and the steep, wooden banking means you have to merge on to the track with a good amount of speed- but the party deck at turns 1 & 2 gives little passage. Riders are encouraged to accelerate past this at a fairly quick speed, and then return to the infield on the back stretch immediately after a finish. As the BVV director told my cert class, "People don't want to watch cool down laps." This led to one of the people in my class deciding she never wanted to ride a track again- she told me that she felt mtbing by herself in the Rockies was safer.
It's tragic- it's a great resource, and a super fun and beautiful track to ride, but I think that it's under-utilized because of several fairly critical design flaws. And I'm not even mentioning the splintered wood on turns 3 & 4 that scares the ***** out of me when I ride over it...
While visiting the track is promoted / welcomed, the wayfinding is very odd and visitors arrive in a space where they mix with riders. Riders are tired, focused on bikes, and, sometimes, are annoyed with answering the same questions over and over again between efforts. What I observed was the riders having to act as ambassadors to the track contributed to several visitors feeling unwelcome- right after they saw a massive sign inviting them in. Some sort of info desk / greeter is probably necessary to orient visitors, it would also be beneficial if they circulated to the party deck instead of the infield.
The other issue is that the way the track is used is, in my opinion, completely unsafe. The combination of entering on the backfield and the steep, wooden banking means you have to merge on to the track with a good amount of speed- but the party deck at turns 1 & 2 gives little passage. Riders are encouraged to accelerate past this at a fairly quick speed, and then return to the infield on the back stretch immediately after a finish. As the BVV director told my cert class, "People don't want to watch cool down laps." This led to one of the people in my class deciding she never wanted to ride a track again- she told me that she felt mtbing by herself in the Rockies was safer.
It's tragic- it's a great resource, and a super fun and beautiful track to ride, but I think that it's under-utilized because of several fairly critical design flaws. And I'm not even mentioning the splintered wood on turns 3 & 4 that scares the ***** out of me when I ride over it...
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I just saw this and know nothing about the owners or community- but as someone who just got certified there I'm very much not surprised. There are two critical design flaws to the track that I feel are absolutely impeding the culture and stunting the community around it.
While visiting the track is promoted / welcomed, the wayfinding is very odd and visitors arrive in a space where they mix with riders. Riders are tired, focused on bikes, and, sometimes, are annoyed with answering the same questions over and over again between efforts. What I observed was the riders having to act as ambassadors to the track contributed to several visitors feeling unwelcome- right after they saw a massive sign inviting them in. Some sort of info desk / greeter is probably necessary to orient visitors, it would also be beneficial if they circulated to the party deck instead of the infield.
The other issue is that the way the track is used is, in my opinion, completely unsafe. The combination of entering on the backfield and the steep, wooden banking means you have to merge on to the track with a good amount of speed- but the party deck at turns 1 & 2 gives little passage. Riders are encouraged to accelerate past this at a fairly quick speed, and then return to the infield on the back stretch immediately after a finish. As the BVV director told my cert class, "People don't want to watch cool down laps." This led to one of the people in my class deciding she never wanted to ride a track again- she told me that she felt mtbing by herself in the Rockies was safer.
It's tragic- it's a great resource, and a super fun and beautiful track to ride, but I think that it's under-utilized because of several fairly critical design flaws. And I'm not even mentioning the splintered wood on turns 3 & 4 that scares the ***** out of me when I ride over it...
While visiting the track is promoted / welcomed, the wayfinding is very odd and visitors arrive in a space where they mix with riders. Riders are tired, focused on bikes, and, sometimes, are annoyed with answering the same questions over and over again between efforts. What I observed was the riders having to act as ambassadors to the track contributed to several visitors feeling unwelcome- right after they saw a massive sign inviting them in. Some sort of info desk / greeter is probably necessary to orient visitors, it would also be beneficial if they circulated to the party deck instead of the infield.
The other issue is that the way the track is used is, in my opinion, completely unsafe. The combination of entering on the backfield and the steep, wooden banking means you have to merge on to the track with a good amount of speed- but the party deck at turns 1 & 2 gives little passage. Riders are encouraged to accelerate past this at a fairly quick speed, and then return to the infield on the back stretch immediately after a finish. As the BVV director told my cert class, "People don't want to watch cool down laps." This led to one of the people in my class deciding she never wanted to ride a track again- she told me that she felt mtbing by herself in the Rockies was safer.
It's tragic- it's a great resource, and a super fun and beautiful track to ride, but I think that it's under-utilized because of several fairly critical design flaws. And I'm not even mentioning the splintered wood on turns 3 & 4 that scares the ***** out of me when I ride over it...
It's also common to ride relief (rest) laps just above the blue stayer's line. That way faster riders can go under you in the sprinter's lane or wind up above you along the rails.
Safely entering and exiting a track, especially a short one with lots of activity, can seem treacherous. But, it's possible. Everyone will appreciate if you err on the side of safety. A good track director will appreciate that.
The "People don't want to watch cool down laps." comment may have been harsh and taken too literally. One is commonly expected to exit the track after they reasonably slow down to a safe exit speed. So, if you are a riding doing a flying 200m at 40mph/65kph, then it might take 1.5 or 2 laps to safely slow the bike down. But, if you are going much slower, then that deceleration can happen faster.
Also, there are periods on the track when "loligaging" and having a chat with your buddy as you circle above the stayer's line is totally acceptable. You simply have to feel it out.
Don't be discouraged. Maybe the track director would rather come off too strict and hard than the opposite. Trust me, you don't want the opposite. I've seen:
- Water bottles jump out of people's jersey pockets and roll down a busy track during warmups.
- Road bikes on the track during warmups.
- People riding 2-wide in the sprinter's lane at just over a walking pace chatting while others are zooming around them (at Masters Nationals no less)
- People passing under the sprinter's lane and on the flat and then struggle to pass and get back on the track before entering turn 1.
So, it's probably better to instill a bit of fear and firmness into new riders who may be skilled (and bold) from riding other disciplines than it is to hope they know better.
EDIT:
Also, new tracks simply don't have local etiquette ingrained in everyone yet. They are still all figuring it out. I realized this as I was a regular at DLV (which has been active since the 1970s) and visited Rock Hill during it's inaugural season. Things were very awkward, disjointed, and not as "together" and it was a bit unnerving even to me being an experienced racer. Rock Hill got better very quickly. I imagine something like that may be happening at Boulder, too, as the locals and staff simply get more experience every week.
Last edited by carleton; 10-25-17 at 02:35 PM.
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I'd love to see the revenue the track is generating. I'd be surprised if they could really justify the $4.7m asking price as a velodrome. Most business valuations are done on a multiple of revenue. My guess is that they are basing that largely on the value of the land, which would imply use for other development.
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I'm not, I'm just offering my insight into the design strategies of the track and I'm speculating on how they might affect its culture.
I'm not sure what you're getting at here... I'm describing how the design of the track is unsafe for riders, not that the director is too strict. If you mean to suggest that my understanding of his comment about cool down laps is serving to instill fear and firmness, creating a culture of fear and firmness that pushes riders to ride unsafely seems fairly counterproductive- and dangerous.
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I'm not sure what you're getting at here... I'm describing how the design of the track is unsafe for riders, not that the director is too strict. If you mean to suggest that my understanding of his comment about cool down laps is serving to instill fear and firmness, creating a culture of fear and firmness that pushes riders to ride unsafely seems fairly counterproductive- and dangerous.
I don't want to speculate too much as to what the director meant or what you understood. All I know about this is what you wrote above.
Maybe that was the director's way of saying that the riders shouldn't expect to simply hang out and lolligag on the track as a rule...until the figure out when it's a good time to make an exception to the rule.
My take on rules: Nobody likes rules. Rules exist because sometime, somewhere, somebody f'd up and it was bad. So bad that they had to make a rule about it.
Personally, I like when rules are explained. It helps tremendously with getting those to abide by them. But, if they seem arbitrary or counter-intuitive, then they won't. If the rules really are arbitrary or counter-intuitive, then the rules shouldn't exist. If they are not, then maybe there is some miscommunication happening (by the instructor or the student). Explaining the rules as you present them helps clear up all of the above.
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I googled it, and I can see your concern about the location of the party deck.
At Rock Hill, entrance and exit is typically on the back side, but at nationals, they moved it to the front side because the tents blocked the view of riders coming out of turn 2.
At Rock Hill, entrance and exit is typically on the back side, but at nationals, they moved it to the front side because the tents blocked the view of riders coming out of turn 2.
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So, I found
video.
So, the ramp to the track exits at the 7 o'clock position at the end of the back straight right before turn 3. Are you saying that the track director expects you, from that point, climb into turn 3 and get to the stayer's line?
The LA velodrome has that same track entry point.
It's expected that you ride on the apron around most of the track and enter when you pass the exit of turn 2 OR you walk your bike backwards and mount at the beginning of the back straight.
So, the ramp to the track exits at the 7 o'clock position at the end of the back straight right before turn 3. Are you saying that the track director expects you, from that point, climb into turn 3 and get to the stayer's line?
The LA velodrome has that same track entry point.
It's expected that you ride on the apron around most of the track and enter when you pass the exit of turn 2 OR you walk your bike backwards and mount at the beginning of the back straight.
Last edited by carleton; 10-25-17 at 03:27 PM. Reason: 7 o'clock not 5 o'clock
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This expectation is not extended at BVV under the current management, at least not during cert classes. The director indicated that this expectation wouldn't be extended during races as well, but I don't know first hand.
I do agree with you on the riders-as-ambassadors gripe. The first year, there was an attempt to have a dedicated staff member/volunteer to meet and greet. That said, in my experience, and the experience of those that I speak with at BVV, it's hardly an issue. Almost everyone who visits seems pretty keen on the track and at least feigns interest in watching the races.
Also, in fairness, the track director does get a bit wordy. I am a VERY big fan of him personally, so I don't criticize lightly, but I have been around some cert classes and thought "that could be said better." The reality is that he's a solid dude with his head in the right place (normally) and is quite good at what he does.
I hope you're planing to come out and experience our race night culture, because it is hardly stunted nor critically flawed. The spectator counts rise every summer, and the racing just gets better.
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You're only expected to enter on the back straight. If it's safe, go in just past 2. If not, you can wait a bit.
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I'd love to see the revenue the track is generating. I'd be surprised if they could really justify the $4.7m asking price as a velodrome. Most business valuations are done on a multiple of revenue. My guess is that they are basing that largely on the value of the land, which would imply use for other development.
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I'm still not convinced the operation can generate sufficient revenue to cover all operating costs, let alone the purchase price.
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I just saw this and know nothing about the owners or community- but as someone who just got certified there I'm very much not surprised. There are two critical design flaws to the track that I feel are absolutely impeding the culture and stunting the community around it.
While visiting the track is promoted / welcomed, the wayfinding is very odd and visitors arrive in a space where they mix with riders. Riders are tired, focused on bikes, and, sometimes, are annoyed with answering the same questions over and over again between efforts. What I observed was the riders having to act as ambassadors to the track contributed to several visitors feeling unwelcome- right after they saw a massive sign inviting them in. Some sort of info desk / greeter is probably necessary to orient visitors, it would also be beneficial if they circulated to the party deck instead of the infield.
The other issue is that the way the track is used is, in my opinion, completely unsafe. The combination of entering on the backfield and the steep, wooden banking means you have to merge on to the track with a good amount of speed- but the party deck at turns 1 & 2 gives little passage. Riders are encouraged to accelerate past this at a fairly quick speed, and then return to the infield on the back stretch immediately after a finish. As the BVV director told my cert class, "People don't want to watch cool down laps." This led to one of the people in my class deciding she never wanted to ride a track again- she told me that she felt mtbing by herself in the Rockies was safer.
It's tragic- it's a great resource, and a super fun and beautiful track to ride, but I think that it's under-utilized because of several fairly critical design flaws. And I'm not even mentioning the splintered wood on turns 3 & 4 that scares the ***** out of me when I ride over it...
While visiting the track is promoted / welcomed, the wayfinding is very odd and visitors arrive in a space where they mix with riders. Riders are tired, focused on bikes, and, sometimes, are annoyed with answering the same questions over and over again between efforts. What I observed was the riders having to act as ambassadors to the track contributed to several visitors feeling unwelcome- right after they saw a massive sign inviting them in. Some sort of info desk / greeter is probably necessary to orient visitors, it would also be beneficial if they circulated to the party deck instead of the infield.
The other issue is that the way the track is used is, in my opinion, completely unsafe. The combination of entering on the backfield and the steep, wooden banking means you have to merge on to the track with a good amount of speed- but the party deck at turns 1 & 2 gives little passage. Riders are encouraged to accelerate past this at a fairly quick speed, and then return to the infield on the back stretch immediately after a finish. As the BVV director told my cert class, "People don't want to watch cool down laps." This led to one of the people in my class deciding she never wanted to ride a track again- she told me that she felt mtbing by herself in the Rockies was safer.
It's tragic- it's a great resource, and a super fun and beautiful track to ride, but I think that it's under-utilized because of several fairly critical design flaws. And I'm not even mentioning the splintered wood on turns 3 & 4 that scares the ***** out of me when I ride over it...
bad experience but keep on coming out there's a lot of great people who ride there. 250 meter tracks are intimidating for anyone the first time (it was for me and I rode many Madisons in the 80's on 333's). I always tell anyone interested in riding the track to try the OTC 333 first, 333's are way less intimidating. Even if you have to drive past BVV on your way to the OTC, it's worth it.
BVV has a very high minimum speed and it gets pretty dicey if you're a big sprinter trying to go slow in the turns but I've never had any issues entering and exiting the track. I always ride the apron for a couple of laps to get an idea of what kind of efforts everyone is doing and time my entry appropriately. Even though the sight lines are blocked by the party deck you should be aware of where everyone is on the track. Sometimes I'll take an extra lap to get a better gap.
There are some riders there that come off as not very friendly but they're that way to everyone not just visitors. I imagine that their temperament was probably exasperated because they were preping for Worlds. The vast majority of the riders are very welcoming and you'll find yourself talking to Olympians, world record holders and Rainbow Jersey owners.
The track director is focused on three things: safety, safety and safety. Sometimes that comes out as harsh but I welcome his focus. He's lectured our group of sprinters more than once for a lapse but we're all the better for it. He's a top shelf rider. If your head isn't 100% in the game you don't belong on the track. I've made the two hour drive there, suited up and then decided not to ride because I couldn't focus.
All outdoor tracks have imperfections. Learn to use them to your advantage. I use that section of the track to jump underneath people all the time. The root growing under turn 4 at Hellyer (hell yeah) was a great place to pass. The expansion joints at Rock Hill were described to me as horrific, sure you felt them with your tires pumped up to 210psi but they don't move you off your line.
Kevin
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There are some riders there that come off as not very friendly but they're that way to everyone not just visitors. I imagine that their temperament was probably exasperated because they were preping for Worlds. The vast majority of the riders are very welcoming and you'll find yourself talking to Olympians, world record holders and Rainbow Jersey owners.
Now that I have been there enough, I'm now kind of a regular, so I am a bit more welcomed by those individuals.
Others, mostly the racers, have been more than welcoming to me.
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Great shot, I stand corrected. However I point out in my defense that the constriction of the area around the apron gave me the impression that the apron was narrower. Also, while the geometry and entry the same, the mesh nets of LAVRA aren't as daunting as sharp, solid architectural features.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but I will say I have a very different impression. Having worked with three track directors prior, my impression that he was the first who wasn't making a safety a priority. Telling cert class riders that "people don't come to watch cool down laps" and yelling at them to exit on to a flat apron with obstacles 100m after an all-out effort creates, in my opinion, an unsafe culture. If that culture hasn't manifested to your experience as well, I'm glad to hear that, but the attitude I observed did turn other participants off to the sport entirely.
The wayfinding and lack of a greeter / someone to orient visitors is a massive issue and one that could easily be solved... but I agree with several posts here, I don't see the financial numbers panning out- even with a better circulation design.
The wayfinding and lack of a greeter / someone to orient visitors is a massive issue and one that could easily be solved... but I agree with several posts here, I don't see the financial numbers panning out- even with a better circulation design.
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...Riders are tired, focused on bikes, and, sometimes, are annoyed with answering the same questions over and over again between efforts. What I observed was the riders having to act as ambassadors to the track contributed to several visitors feeling unwelcome- right after they saw a massive sign inviting them in....
The other issue is that the way the track is used is, in my opinion, completely unsafe. The combination of entering on the backfield and the steep, wooden banking means you have to merge on to the track with a good amount of speed- but the party deck at turns 1 & 2 gives little passage. Riders are encouraged to accelerate past this at a fairly quick speed, and then return to the infield on the back stretch immediately after a finish. As the BVV director told my cert class, "People don't want to watch cool down laps." This led to one of the people in my class deciding she never wanted to ride a track again- she told me that she felt mtbing by herself in the Rockies was safer.
...And I'm not even mentioning the splintered wood on turns 3 & 4 that scares the ***** out of me when I ride over it...
The other issue is that the way the track is used is, in my opinion, completely unsafe. The combination of entering on the backfield and the steep, wooden banking means you have to merge on to the track with a good amount of speed- but the party deck at turns 1 & 2 gives little passage. Riders are encouraged to accelerate past this at a fairly quick speed, and then return to the infield on the back stretch immediately after a finish. As the BVV director told my cert class, "People don't want to watch cool down laps." This led to one of the people in my class deciding she never wanted to ride a track again- she told me that she felt mtbing by herself in the Rockies was safer.
...And I'm not even mentioning the splintered wood on turns 3 & 4 that scares the ***** out of me when I ride over it...
In my experience over the past three seasons, it has been a safe track that's well run by great folks. I think there's very little elitist or exclusionary attitude at BVV, though there are some who are a bit more aloof or introverted - just like there would be in any crowd. I hope you'll give it another chance.
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So, I found this video.
So, the ramp to the track exits at the 7 o'clock position at the end of the back straight right before turn 3. Are you saying that the track director expects you, from that point, climb into turn 3 and get to the stayer's line?
The LA velodrome has that same track entry point.
So, the ramp to the track exits at the 7 o'clock position at the end of the back straight right before turn 3. Are you saying that the track director expects you, from that point, climb into turn 3 and get to the stayer's line?
The LA velodrome has that same track entry point.
At VSC you get onto the apron at the top of the ramp, but you really can enter the track at any point where it's clear, and on a busy track it can help to do a few apron laps to adjust your timing.
Great shot, I stand corrected. However I point out in my defense that the constriction of the area around the apron gave me the impression that the apron was narrower. Also, while the geometry and entry the same, the mesh nets of LAVRA aren't as daunting as sharp, solid architectural features.
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When I see new people at VSC, I try to be friendly. Amazingly enough, though, the friendliness is not always returned. If you are new to VSC, it's good to understand that most of the regulars will shy away from you for a while until you demonstrate that you know to ride fast enough and if you respect the track etiquette. I have seen more than one experienced rider slip off the turns by going too slow because they fail to appreciate the difference between wood and concrete. It is also annoying when (I saw this a lot in the run up to Master's Worlds) they cruise in the pole lane when they should be above the blue line; suggesting they make the change was not always met with a positive reaction from the cruising riders. I am sure this happens at all tracks. When I visit a foreign track (which includes Encino and San Diego), I always talk to a local to get an etiquette refresher.
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Of course, for $4.7 Million, at 1% return on investment, one gets $47,000 in annual interest. At a 5% return on investment, one gets over $200,000 annual interest.
It is a fairly high elevation course, so it should be pretty fast.
It sounds like someone needs to do some serious crowd funding. Perhaps try to get some government grants to convert it to publicly owned.
#21
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I'll be in Boulder this month. Is the BVV still closed?
The most recent info I've found is here: https://www.facebook.com/SaveBVV/
The most recent info I've found is here: https://www.facebook.com/SaveBVV/
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I'll be in Boulder this month. Is the BVV still closed?
The most recent info I've found is here: https://www.facebook.com/SaveBVV/
The most recent info I've found is here: https://www.facebook.com/SaveBVV/
The Colorado Springs is closed to all riders ecept Olympic Team riders (I am hoping it opens for al ridersl following the Oltymics).
Last edited by 700wheel; 07-03-21 at 05:30 PM. Reason: typo
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