grolby

Over the years I’ve heard now and then various reasons offered as to why lugged frames might be stronger or more durable than welded ones. Coincidentally, usually from people who happened to prefer the aesthetics of lugs over welding . In practice, it’s a wash and a competently built frame will last for many years whether lugged or not.

The one putative advantage of lugged construction over welding that might have a grain of truth is that the higher temperature required to make a weld makes it more likely for an inexperienced or unskilled builder to overheat the steel and render it brittle. And that would lead to cracks forming at the welds. But it’s also possible to do a poor job of brazing a lugged joint in various ways, so really you just want someone who knows what they’re doing to build your frame and we’re back to it just not really mattering. The good news is 15k miles ought to be enough to cause cracks from brittle steel to start appearing, so you should be OK.

veganbikes

I doubt it would really make a huge difference but it would be interesting to have a builder who is extremely proficient in lugged, brazed and TIG build three as identical frames as possible and then do some testing on all three. Or maybe a couple builders who are as close in style as possible or at least building the same geometry with as similar tubes as is possible.

In the end I think for me a really nice lugged frame with some unique lugs would be the top of the list but brazed and TIG would follow. My ultimate dream is a lugged titanium bike which I recognize is basically not practical or realistic as brazing titanium is really hard and and super sterile process and I don't want fake welded lugs or a different material.

Atlas Shrugged

Like all of these discussions it devolves into the romantics transposing fond memories of days of yore. Tig is superior in numerous way’s. The frame can be lighter because no lugs. The frame can be lighter because the butts can be much shorter. It is easy to see the quality of the joint unlike brazing where it’s just a guess. It takes greater prep to ensure the mitres are perfect. Lastly it takes greater skill as all errors are exposed, you can’t cover up once a error occurs.

Lugged construction is much easier and requires less equipment which makes it popular with the small builders and hobbyists.

Koyote

And other things equal, tig welded frames are less expensive.

When I bought a custom steel frame, I went with Waterford Precision Cycles. They offered lugged frames (under the Waterford name) and tig welded frames (under the Gunnar name). Aside from the joining method, the frames only differed in the fanciness of the paint and decals and in the prices -- the lugged Waterford frame would've been about $700 more expensive. Otherwise, same tubesets, same builders, same painters and paints, etc. Since I was planning to ride the bike rather than gaze lovingly on it, I chose the tig welded Gunnar. After four years and about 17k miles, I have no regrets. And as for the OP's concerns: that frame has been absolutely thrashed (it's a gravel rig), as has my 20+ year old LeMond that has been ridden well over 40k miles.

Bob Ross

Well, but Larry did ask about "egg considerations" so maybe he's talking about poached rather than braised?


It's also worth noting that another supposed advantage [sic] of lugged construction that seems to get a lot of traction on the internet is in fact a myth:
Folks will often talk about how easy it is to repair a damaged lugged frame, because you can just heat up the lugs, remove the damaged tube, and ...

...and what exactly? You can't replace a top tube or down tube or seat tube on an already-built lugged frame without disturbing the alignment*
Plus, just try to find a competant and experienced framebuilder to take on that sort of repair work! I don't doubt there are hacks who might accept the challenge, but real artisans? Naw. It's a red herring.

*ironically, you can replace a top tube or down tube or seat tube on an already-built TIG-welded frame without disturbing the alignment...so long as it's only one of those tubes. More than one though and you're SOL.

mstateglfr 

Jeff Bock has done exactly what you are saying only a hack would handle. I saw frames in his shop needing tube replacement. Further, there is more to the frame than just a main tube. Seat stays, chain stays, dropouts- these are all replaceable on a lugged frame(not saying they arent replaceable on a tig frame). None are easy to replace, but I really dont think anyone with any knowledge or understanding would claim the process is easy.
And yes, realignment needs to be considered. It needs to be considered for any frame that is blasted with a bunch of heat at a joint, so it is hardly unique to lugged frames. I would expect any frame that has any tube, lug, or dropout replaced to be checked for alignment.


...Bock isnt a hack- he is a long time well respected builder, fabricator, and refinisher.

big john

My friend was riding no hands on his Landshark (that I sold him) and he crashed into a large concrete potted plant, bending the top and down tubes. He sent the frame back to John Slawta at Landshark and John replaced those tubes and repainted it.

Camilo

Yes, definitely.

stoneageyosh

Brian Baylis was far from a hack. He replaced top and down tubes and repainted my wife’s Tesch Model 100.

socalife

If you look at chromoly (4130) tube construction in aircraft and older racing car frames, it was TIG welded. TIG welding will give the strongest connection between tubes because the parent metal is melted and combined with filler metal (of a similar material) and joined together at the molecular level. TIG welding can be more costly because the equipment and electric power required is expensive. Weldors certified in electric arc processes have their test joints X-Ray tested to confirm complete fusion all the way through. The weak area of these joints is the area of each tube right next to the actual weld (called the heat affected zone) and the design of the item (frame) needs to take that into account. TIG welding introduces a higher temperature to the metal in the heat affected zone. I believe this is one of the reasons TIG welded frames use larger diameter tubes.

Brazing requires cheaper equipment and no electric power and the joint is a mechanical bond similar to copper waterpipe soldering.

In general, brazing (OAW-oxy aceteline welding) is easier to learn than TIG (tungstun inert gas) welding

In the industrial world, most everything is usually electric arc welded and TIG welded when working with thin wall tubes

Koyote

Incorrect. I was once at my LBS while they were stripping down a Waterford with a buckled top tube, which happened in some sort of wreck. They were sending it back to Waterford for repair, which was cheaper than a new frame.

Are you calling Waterford "hacks"?

Chuck M 

And me

ljsense

You never know.

I bought a Raleigh Competition in Reynolds 531 tubing when I was 16 and starting out in racing. It was the most bike I could afford, and I thought it was glorious -- Shimano 600 and FiR wheels.

Anyway, many years later -- almost 20, I believe -- the seat tube cracked below the lug and I took it to the shop I bought it, and they replaced the frame and swapped over all the components as much as they could (downtube shifters weren't an option).

JohnDThompson 

Properly built, they are essentially equivalent. TIG welding lends itself more readily to automated production and non-standard frame geometries and tube shapes.

Bob Ross

I'm saying that while lots of folks can probably name one or two framebuilders who have done this sort of work, the likelihood of your being able to find one of those framebuilders who is available and willing to take on the project in a timely manner when you find yourself in sudden need of a frame repair is vanishingly small. And that's based on the same anecdotal empiricism that ^^^those three names above came from: I know at least four other cyclists -- plus myself, btw -- who, over the past ~12 years tried to find a reputable framebuilder who would do this sort of repair project and ultimately gave up because we couldn't find anyone willing to take on the job.

iow, the issue isn't really that no one can do the work; it's that the number of places that can do the work is vastly smaller than the number of folks on the internet claiming that "it's an easy fix, there are plenty of places that can do it!"

Koyote

Except that's not what you wrote; you wrote this claim, which you now seem to have abandoned after reading several responses which proved you to be incorrect:

You could just admit that you were wrong...But people never do that on the internet.

Bob Ross

LOL! Dude, it's Bike Forums.net, you were expecting anything else?

I now command you to reply to this post! Good doggie!

genejockey 

Besides, filet is already really tender and braising would turn it into mush.

genejockey 

I have a TIG-welded Ritchey Road Logic. The welds are fairly small, especially compared to the ones on my Cannondale (big, filed/sanded down smooth) or Litespeed (stack of dimes), and don't draw attention to themselves like lugs or fillet brazing. It's a simpler look, and given that the bike is 26 years old and has tens of thousands of miles on it, ridden by a big fat bastard, and is still in great condition, I conclude that TIG welding done right is plenty strong. Obviously, so is lugged or filet brazed, also if done right.

mstateglfr 

Below is what you posted earlier and what I responded to.
I, and others, have cited multiple well respected builders to counter your claim.

You then move the goal posts and claim it will be difficult to find someone who can repair thee frame quickly.
Um...OK, that is a totally different point than what you said earlier. Like not even close to the same point.



Tldr- you posted a baseless comment, got clowned, and you are now trying to pivot rather than take the L.

Bob Ross

Gosh, "clowned" on BikeForums.net, how will I ever live with myself?!?! Next thing you know We're Going To Yell At You.

:::dancingbanana:::

mstateglfr 

Some people can accept they are fundamentally wrong about something, say so, and learn from it.
Others lash out, deflect, and dismiss.

Trakhak

Ostensible goalpost-moving and bickering aside, if you own a high-quality (Reynolds, Columbus, etc.) steel bike and you're looking for a frame builder willing to repair the frame, you're probably in luck if near a high-population area. If not, probably not.

You can always ship a frame to a frame builder and ride your spare bike, assuming that you're not out on tour somewhere. If you are on tour in a remote area, you have to hope you find, e.g., a service station with a welder who knows how to repair thin-walled steel tubes without burning through or otherwise severely damaging the tubes.

beng1

The longevity of a fabricated mechanical device depends on how it is engineered. Any frame manufacturer can make mistakes. If the person making the bicycle frame does not make any mistakes then it will not matter how they join the tubes together, the life of the frame will be infinite for all practical purposes. There are literally hundreds of thousands of old steel bike frames out there which have outlived their original owners and their original front sprockets and other components, and enough of them which have outlived multiple owners and sets of components.

Bob Ross

On BikeForums.net?!?! Have you looked around?

Geez, this place is getting soft...