Search
Notices
Adaptive Cycling: Handcycles, Amputee Adaptation, Visual Impairment, and Other Needs Have a need for adaptive equipment to ride to compensate for a disability or loss of limb or function? This area is for discussion among those of us in the cycling world that are coming back from traumatic circumstances and tell the world, "No, you are not going to beat me down!"

Macular Degeneration

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 09-11-16, 06:57 PM
  #1  
purptiger
Newbie
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Daytona Beach, FL
Posts: 45

Bikes: Trek Domone Al 5 Disc

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Macular Degeneration

By way of introduction: my name is Steve Perry

Well I have had macular degeneration all of my life. I am legally blind and work with the low vision community for a living. I ride a Trek fx 7.3 and tend to ride with what the roads and environment are giving me. I do ride on busy roads, but I do pay attention to traffic and cars. My biggest problem is due to glare and distance I am not always able to tell when the traffic light changes. I will either wait until I see a car going with the parallel traffic or pull over into the crosswalk and stop and wait.

I wish I could get glasses to get more distance vision, but the eye doctor says glasses will not help. So I do the best that I can. Also, I do get anxious when in heavy traffic and even fell the other day when my feet and front wheel got caught up in each other. The bike safety laws discuss taking the lane when appropriate and even getting into left turn lanes; however, it can be scary when a car pulls up behind you and does not seem to have much patience with me. Once I did not see the light change and the car behind me honked its horn. What spurred the accident is that I panicked when I saw the line of cars coming up behind me and I shifted onto the sidewalk. Sometimes I feel that I need to get out and overcome this fear to prove to myself that I have just as much right to me on the road as cars.

If anyone has any ideas to help me see the traffic lights better please let me know.
purptiger is offline  
Old 09-11-16, 10:51 PM
  #2  
Leisesturm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 5,994
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2496 Post(s)
Liked 739 Times in 523 Posts
I have Glaucoma and Macular Degeneration, and no longer drive, voluntarily. But I could, my license does not expire for six or more years. It probably would not be renewed if I had to take an eye test again. I am not legally blind. Not by a long shot, probably around 20/100. Significant field loss in left eye, moderate field loss in right eye. Since I no longer drive I cycle everywhere. My wife is blind and we own three tandems. I captain her to her jobsite every morning and ride back home light, switch to one of my single bikes and head off to my own jobsite. She takes the bus home.

If my sight ever got to where yours is she would insist that I find some other means of transportation than a bicycle. From your description of things I cannot in good conscience suggest that you try to find solutions to keep riding. There are none. Glare is the least of your issues. Cars are no joke. You could get killed. Or worse. I'm serious. There is worse than dying.

My wife also works with the blind and low vision community for a living. There are people with your kind of vision loss still trying to drive! In a way, that almost makes more sense than what you are trying to do.

If you don't take my advice and give up the keys, then for the love of all that is Good and Holy, HTFU and do it right out there. Fear and panic have no place in a cyclists mindset. If you can't get out there with confidence in your abilities then take the bus. No one will judge you harshly for doing that.
Leisesturm is offline  
Old 09-12-16, 04:59 AM
  #3  
purptiger
Newbie
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Daytona Beach, FL
Posts: 45

Bikes: Trek Domone Al 5 Disc

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I do ride carefully and obey traffic laws. I will walk crosswalks if I have to before giving up biking. I asked for advice not patronizing. I encourage my students. You do not even know my vision level. Have a good day.
purptiger is offline  
Old 09-12-16, 07:23 AM
  #4  
juls
over the hill
 
juls's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: florida
Posts: 1,407

Bikes: 72 maino-76 austro daimler inter 10-? giant kronos

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 84 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times in 6 Posts
Really tough with cars deciding not to share the road. I too would like to use the left turn lane-but am hesitant to do so. Due to scars over my left retina (attributed to MD) I have no central vision in that eye. It effects my confidence. Stick to the crosswalks-takes longer but safer in the long run. Do sidewalks when needed and get a bell for those pesky pedestrians. LOL
juls is offline  
Old 09-13-16, 10:57 AM
  #5  
crashmo
Shaven Sasquatch
 
crashmo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Oregon City
Posts: 127

Bikes: Salsa Colossal

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Tough situation; I feel for you. Hope you can mainly focus your riding in the most well-lit parts of the day, and when the sun is least likely to be right in your eyes whilst trying to navigate the roads.


Are there multi-use pathways where you live, that could be mainly utilized? Sidewalks can be dangerous when there are lots of driveways and might be more dangerous than the road. Sometimes route selection does more for rideability than anything else.


A good set of polarized yellow tinted glasses might help reduce eye strain and help you see the lights more clearly. Key thing is to not get run over. Good luck out there and stay safe!
crashmo is offline  
Old 09-13-16, 05:51 PM
  #6  
purptiger
Newbie
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Daytona Beach, FL
Posts: 45

Bikes: Trek Domone Al 5 Disc

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Not many multi use paths. I would have to be driven in car to get to them. DB is not a bike friendly town.
purptiger is offline  
Old 09-14-16, 10:04 AM
  #7  
AlexCyclistRoch
The Infractionator
 
AlexCyclistRoch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 2,201

Bikes: Classic road bikes: 1986 Cannondale, 1978 Trek

Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 875 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Um...I kinda think this post might be a "troll", but in the case that it is not, let me be completely understandable, even if my opinion might be cruel.

If you are truly LEGALLY BLIND, then you can not LEGALLY drive any vehicle. A bicycle is a vehicle. If you can truly not see well enough to legally drive a vehicle, then you are risking yourself and others every time you ride. I **might** think otherwise if you had said that you ride with a sighted person, acting as a guide, but you did not. Even riding like this is fairly risky in traffic. If someday you happen to hit a pedestrian, any attorney would have no problem pointing out to a jury was hit by a BLIND MAN operating a vehicle.

I'm sorry for your predicament, but, let me just state the obvious: If you are blind, you can not ride a bike in traffic. Sorry, but that's the facts.
AlexCyclistRoch is offline  
Old 10-07-16, 09:03 PM
  #8  
Lively or Not
Senior Member
 
Lively or Not's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: NE Oklahoma (*really* NE)
Posts: 108

Bikes: 1985 Raleigh Portage, 1976 Araya commuter (yes, they make frames)

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 42 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times in 5 Posts
Steve,
That's tough. I'm blind in one eye and have a diabetic uncle who's struggled with failing vision for years. I understand a small piece of the traffic anxiety you're talking about; I've just finished a months-long search for a mirror that will let me see traffic behind and on my left from only my right eye. And I've seen my uncle push to keep his independence with really horrid vision.

I'd suggest looking for routes that keep you mostly or entirely off the busy roads that you've had trouble with. Often, you can find a way through a subdivision, zig-zag a short distance on a busier road, then cut through another residential area to avoid main roads. You'd certainly travel a longer distance, but I'd imagine residential stop signs would present fewer challenges than traffic lights in daytime.

If you've tried doing this online and not gotten far, track down a paper map; I'm sure the DB tourism office has some. I've found paper to be useful for this sort of task.

Be safe on the roads, Steve. And I hope you're on high ground through the hurricane.
Lively or Not is offline  
Old 10-08-16, 12:28 PM
  #9  
FBinNY 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 38,725

Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter

Mentioned: 140 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5793 Post(s)
Liked 2,586 Times in 1,434 Posts
Macular degerneration usually starts near the center of the field and expands toward the rim over time. This isn't always the case, but there may be a chance that you have some peripheral clarity you can take advantage of. You might see the light better by not looking at it, but sighting below and to the side. Experiment to find where you can see it best.

Unfortunately the color may not be clear, but you can learn to judge by position, ie. hot spot near the top or bottom, the way colorblind folks do.

Otherwise, you can watch opposing traffic for movement cueing you that the light has changed. I do this when the sun is behind the signal and I can't look at it. The danger is that many intersections have staggered starts for opposing directions, so use this method only where you know it's OK.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.

“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FBinNY is offline  
Old 10-08-16, 11:54 PM
  #10  
3alarmer 
Friendship is Magic
 
3alarmer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 22,985

Bikes: old ones

Mentioned: 304 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26425 Post(s)
Liked 10,381 Times in 7,209 Posts
...if it helps any (probably doesn't), I have good vision, and I'm still fearful when riding on the busier roads here in Sacramento. I don't know if it's workable for you in Daytona Beach, but here it is a valuable exercise to sit down with a map, and look for the roads that take me through neighborhoods on roads that parallel the main through streets.

I end up spending less time on the heavily trafficked streets, and feel a lot less stressed because of it. Google maps is good for this, and even has a bicycle routing function (which does not always work so well.)
3alarmer is offline  
Old 10-09-16, 04:16 PM
  #11  
fietsbob
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NW,Oregon Coast
Posts: 43,598

Bikes: 8

Mentioned: 197 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7607 Post(s)
Liked 1,355 Times in 862 Posts
I'd say Invest in a tandem and get someone with Much Better Eyesight to ride in front.
fietsbob is offline  
Old 03-09-17, 12:15 PM
  #12  
VNA
Senior Member
 
VNA's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 870
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 74 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 1 Post
Originally Posted by FBinNY
Macular degerneration usually starts near the center of the field and expands toward the rim over time. This isn't always the case, but there may be a chance that you have some peripheral clarity you can take advantage of. You might see the light better by not looking at it, but sighting below and to the side. Experiment to find where you can see it best.. . .
No absolutely not: to my experience if your optometrist or ophthalmologist detects "Drusens" that is the beginning with no symptoms and over many many years these tiny fatty deposits will ultimately destroy your macula and not necessarily from the center. Eventually one will lose the central vision--that is for the dry form of AMD.
The wet kind is more drastic and they are some remedy to alleviate the burst of tiny blood vessels which also destroy the macula.

There is a "medication/vitamins" that can slow the progression but does not work with everyone.

Wishing everyone who suffers from AMD to stay positive and ride as long as possible without endangering your self or any one else.

Keep weight down and away from smokers and smoking.
VNA is offline  
Old 03-09-17, 12:20 PM
  #13  
FBinNY 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 38,725

Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter

Mentioned: 140 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5793 Post(s)
Liked 2,586 Times in 1,434 Posts
Originally Posted by VNA
No absolutely not: to my experience if your optometrist or ophthalmologist detects "Drusens" .....
The OP has a lifelong issue. When I post here, I don't post medical suggestions, and given that this was a long term issue, I think it's fair to assume the OP is getting professional advice, which would trump anything I could add, except maybe the standard, "get a 2nd opinion"

So, I limit myself to the cycling aspects, and ways to possibly manage around a medical problem, rather than how to treat or cure it.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.

“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FBinNY is offline  
Old 03-09-17, 02:44 PM
  #14  
VNA
Senior Member
 
VNA's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 870
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 74 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 1 Post
So sorry but your assertion that AMD "usually starts near the center of the field" is truly incorrect.
It is in fact the very last stage of AMD wet or dry.

It starts so uneventfully with absolutely no symptoms, many many years earlier before one looses central vision.
I so unfortunately write with experience where I am in the very last stage of the macula being destroyed--known as "Geographic Atrophy" after 25 years being told that I have "drusens" in my eyes.

Getting old is not for sissies for sure. Was riding 150 miles a week almost all my adult life until a month ago--Now I ride on the multi use trail next to my house on my MTB and know all the posts!

The best advise one can give is to see an ophthalmologist who specializes in Retinal diseases.

There is plenty of information about AMD on the web.
VNA is offline  
Old 03-09-17, 03:18 PM
  #15  
FBinNY 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 38,725

Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter

Mentioned: 140 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5793 Post(s)
Liked 2,586 Times in 1,434 Posts
Originally Posted by VNA
So sorry but your assertion that AMD "usually starts near the center of the field" is truly incorrect.....
Sorry, but I don't engage in debates on side issues. The OP asked about cycling, not a medical opinion. So, if you wish to believe that I'm wrong, feel free to do so.

For all others, my advice remains as it was, See a Professional for all medical consults. Come to a bike forum for non-medial advice about cycling with a medical issue.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.

“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FBinNY is offline  
Old 03-09-17, 06:15 PM
  #16  
VNA
Senior Member
 
VNA's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 870
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 74 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 1 Post
Debate or not, medical opinion or not, but again claiming "usually starts near the center of the field" those are your words--so please, believe me it is certainly not a side issue as you stated--very much the contrary, it is in fact the end of a normal eye sight, that started many many years earlier.

It is truly a desservice and even cruel to people who suffer from AMD asserting an (medical) opinion that is so wrong on such destructive and devastating illness.

Last edited by VNA; 03-09-17 at 09:33 PM.
VNA is offline  
Old 03-21-17, 08:34 PM
  #17  
torkelisacson
Junior Member
 
torkelisacson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 21
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
If you’re here, you’ve probably just been diagnosed, or suspect you have Macular Degeneration, or someone you care about has just been diagnosed or suspects they have the disease.

This entire site is dedicated to information regarding Macular Degeneration, but this page will give you a quick general overview to get you oriented.
torkelisacson is offline  
Old 03-22-17, 04:37 AM
  #18  
bobwysiwyg
Senior Member
 
bobwysiwyg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: 961' 42.28° N, 83.78° W (A2)
Posts: 2,344

Bikes: Mongoose Selous, Trek DS

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 941 Post(s)
Liked 319 Times in 189 Posts
Originally Posted by AlexCyclistRoch
Um...I kinda think this post might be a "troll", but in the case that it is not, let me be completely understandable, even if my opinion might be cruel.

If you are truly LEGALLY BLIND, then you can not LEGALLY drive any vehicle. A bicycle is a vehicle. If you can truly not see well enough to legally drive a vehicle, then you are risking yourself and others every time you ride. I **might** think otherwise if you had said that you ride with a sighted person, acting as a guide, but you did not. Even riding like this is fairly risky in traffic. If someday you happen to hit a pedestrian, any attorney would have no problem pointing out to a jury was hit by a BLIND MAN operating a vehicle.

I'm sorry for your predicament, but, let me just state the obvious: If you are blind, you can not ride a bike in traffic. Sorry, but that's the facts.
A bicycle is not considered a vehicle under Michigan laws.
bobwysiwyg is offline  
Old 03-22-17, 02:56 PM
  #19  
morfeeis
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 110
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 1 Post
As someone with 20/200 ( might be worse at this point but who knows), all you can so is follow the traffic laws and watch out for yourself as best you can. i do not , DO NOT USE THE TURNING LANES! In my opinion it just isn't worth the risk, i ride with the flow of traffic across the street and then stop at the light and ride across when i get the light the other direction.

I also try to stay away from heavy traffic streets, people are idiots, as blind as my ass is i can see that they drive like dingbats. Sometimes this means taking a longer route, but to me it is worth it. i also don't wear dark shades, i use the blue or yellow lenses riding glasses. they both cut down on glare and reduce the risk of ocrapbuginmyeye syndrome.
morfeeis is offline  
Old 05-23-17, 07:42 PM
  #20  
rubiconazoid
post tenebras lux
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Alamance County, NC
Posts: 74

Bikes: Trek 720, Centurion Accordo, Gary Fisher Mamba

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by purptiger
By way of introduction: my name is Steve Perry

Well I have had macular degeneration all of my life. I am legally blind and work with the low vision community for a living. I ride a Trek fx 7.3 and tend to ride with what the roads and environment are giving me. I do ride on busy roads, but I do pay attention to traffic and cars. My biggest problem is due to glare and distance I am not always able to tell when the traffic light changes. I will either wait until I see a car going with the parallel traffic or pull over into the crosswalk and stop and wait.

I wish I could get glasses to get more distance vision, but the eye doctor says glasses will not help. So I do the best that I can. Also, I do get anxious when in heavy traffic and even fell the other day when my feet and front wheel got caught up in each other. The bike safety laws discuss taking the lane when appropriate and even getting into left turn lanes; however, it can be scary when a car pulls up behind you and does not seem to have much patience with me. Once I did not see the light change and the car behind me honked its horn. What spurred the accident is that I panicked when I saw the line of cars coming up behind me and I shifted onto the sidewalk. Sometimes I feel that I need to get out and overcome this fear to prove to myself that I have just as much right to me on the road as cars.

If anyone has any ideas to help me see the traffic lights better please let me know.
As you probably know, when the central part of your vision, your fovea, becomes compromised, you can only rely on the peripheral part of the macula or even the more peripheral part of your retina to see. While this will let you catch movement to your sides, your fine detail is gone.
In terms of your desire to see the traffic lights better, that's even more difficult. The fovea of the eye contains the highest percentage of cones in the retina, the cones being the light receptors which pick up color, as opposed to the rods which are more light and dark oriented. So, basically, the further out from the fovea the light touches the retina, the less sensitivity to color you will have. No easy answer. Color blind people function from realizing that the traffic lights follow a pattern, that being red on top, yellow in the middle, and green on the bottom. It's how they live. Not sure if you have that degree of sensitivity still or not.
Low vision specialists try to train the folks who have lost their central vision to learn eccentric viewing, it's almost like you are trying to train your brain to recognize another portion of your retina as a "new macula or fovea". This will not give you as sharp a vision as you had when you had no problems. The idea is to give you a degree of functional vision.

Depending on the condition of both eyes you might find this difficult. Geographic atrophy may not be balanced in both eyes, so eccentric viewing in one eye may not line up with what healthy retina you may still have in your other eye. You will certainly hope to maintain the highest degree of binocularity with whatever you choose in glasses. Macular degeneration is a tough thing. I hope you find the highest level of functionality with your remaining vision, and I also commend you for working to stay going.
rubiconazoid is offline  
Old 05-23-17, 08:19 PM
  #21  
unterhausen
Randomhead
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Posts: 24,400
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked 3,699 Times in 2,519 Posts
good luck OP, I really don't know what we can do to help you, unfortunately.

I had an issue that left me with only peripheral vision in one eye until the problem resolved. I really respect your desire to continue cycling, I hope you can make it work
unterhausen is offline  
Old 09-29-17, 09:49 AM
  #22  
GuitarRider2002
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 11
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by morfeeis
As someone with 20/200 ( might be worse at this point but who knows), all you can so is follow the traffic laws and watch out for yourself as best you can. i do not , DO NOT USE THE TURNING LANES! In my opinion it just isn't worth the risk, i ride with the flow of traffic across the street and then stop at the light and ride across when i get the light the other direction.

I also try to stay away from heavy traffic streets, people are idiots, as blind as my ass is i can see that they drive like dingbats. Sometimes this means taking a longer route, but to me it is worth it. i also don't wear dark shades, i use the blue or yellow lenses riding glasses. they both cut down on glare and reduce the risk of ocrapbuginmyeye syndrome.


One of the reasons vision requirements are so strict for operating a motor vehicle, is because they travel at high speeds, which means good vision is needed to provide ample reaction time. I think people can safely cycle with low vision in most cases as long as they understand their limitations,, as you seem to.


OP, I suggest you check into getting a set of telescopic lenses, they will almost certainly solve your red light problem, and they may be little or not cost if you have vision insurance. Good luck, and be safe.

Last edited by GuitarRider2002; 09-29-17 at 10:43 AM. Reason: General remarks
GuitarRider2002 is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
TheBoogly
Vehicular Cycling (VC)
39
11-19-22 09:17 PM
JonBailey
General Cycling Discussion
30
12-17-18 12:31 PM
Camilo
Advocacy & Safety
68
12-24-16 09:46 AM
PatrickGSR94
Commuting
155
07-14-15 08:10 AM
jppe
Fifty Plus (50+)
20
09-14-12 01:57 PM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.