Are "Grail" bikes and "Forever" bikes the same thing?
11-07-23, 06:12 PM
#26
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I don't imagine I will ever part with my 79 Trek 930. It fits like a kid glove, and rides like that too. But the 414 is so versatile, though not nearly as nice a ride. It too fits like a kid glove.
11-07-23, 11:59 PM
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You mean like the Major Taylor bike that Eddy Merckx used as his winter trainer when he was a young teen? 
I do realize that I "cheapened" the meaning a bit with my explanation, but as this thread shows, arriving at a consensus definition is like herding cats across seven dimensions. Frankly, if someone says they have possession of a grail bike, I'll accept it. If they say they have two, I'll reluctantly nod. If they say they've had three or more, I'll raise my eyebrow and presume they like to define things differently from the dictionary.
I do realize that I "cheapened" the meaning a bit with my explanation, but as this thread shows, arriving at a consensus definition is like herding cats across seven dimensions. Frankly, if someone says they have possession of a grail bike, I'll accept it. If they say they have two, I'll reluctantly nod. If they say they've had three or more, I'll raise my eyebrow and presume they like to define things differently from the dictionary.
I have 30 grail bikes!!!
You know, I was sorta thinking about this more this afternoon. None of it matters too much
But, I suppose the schools of thought emerging might make the distinction between what one might consider 'a' grail, as opposed to one considering 'the' grail. Sort of the idea that if it's 'a grail', it implies more than one, which means it's not a grail. But 'the' grail doesn't really work either, since there is no consensus. Is it Confente? Tesch? Singer? A Ross? Nobody will ever agree, so I guess the definition gets punted back into the 'individual interpretation' realm. I think 'grail' is a decently working term that most here understand, regardless of how accurate the application is. These bikes are all fun to think about. I'm sure they'd be even more fun to ride!
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11-08-23, 12:02 AM
#28
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Oooh, you've got a '79 Trek 930? So do I! Not very common! Any pics? What size? Mine is 56cm-ish.
Please ignore those terrible brake levers lol
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11-08-23, 11:03 AM
#29
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After 28 posts, it is looking like the meaning of "grail" varies somewhat from person to person but the implication of a "forever" bike is better agreed upon. I also get the impression that "forever" bikes are the ones more likely to be ridden on a regular basis rather than kept for display or dust-gathering purposes. I was, however, expecting to hear more sentimentality as to why a bike might become "grail" or "forever".
The original question "Grail vs. Forever" arose with me after a recent experience with a lovely Mondia Super - When I was in high school a friend, whose family was in property development and quite wealthy, appeared at my house one day with a sparkling new Mondia that made quite an impression on me. I was very jealous, and I have wanted one of my own ever since. Not long ago, at the Bike Exchange where Cap'n Jonny and I both volunteer (he more than me), a Mondia in my size was donated. Someone else put their name on it and it went up on the third tier of racks where it was hard to get at it. More recently, the original claimant changed his mind and I found the bike available on the "for sale" rack in the front of the shop. "Take it for a ride" they said, "we'll give you a special price", so I did. Well, my reaction to the bike on the road was "Meh", I felt a little crowded thanks to the short top tube and the bike felt twitchy for who knows what reason. I put it back in the rack thinking, beautiful bike but I'd really rather ride my Raleigh. I don't have space in my garage or in my heart for a bike that's just pretty (and/or collectible) but would never get ridden.
The original question "Grail vs. Forever" arose with me after a recent experience with a lovely Mondia Super - When I was in high school a friend, whose family was in property development and quite wealthy, appeared at my house one day with a sparkling new Mondia that made quite an impression on me. I was very jealous, and I have wanted one of my own ever since. Not long ago, at the Bike Exchange where Cap'n Jonny and I both volunteer (he more than me), a Mondia in my size was donated. Someone else put their name on it and it went up on the third tier of racks where it was hard to get at it. More recently, the original claimant changed his mind and I found the bike available on the "for sale" rack in the front of the shop. "Take it for a ride" they said, "we'll give you a special price", so I did. Well, my reaction to the bike on the road was "Meh", I felt a little crowded thanks to the short top tube and the bike felt twitchy for who knows what reason. I put it back in the rack thinking, beautiful bike but I'd really rather ride my Raleigh. I don't have space in my garage or in my heart for a bike that's just pretty (and/or collectible) but would never get ridden.
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11-08-23, 11:21 AM
#30
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After 28 posts, it is looking like the meaning of "grail" varies somewhat from person to person but the implication of a "forever" bike is better agreed upon. I also get the impression that "forever" bikes are the ones more likely to be ridden on a regular basis rather than kept for display or dust-gathering purposes. I was, however, expecting to hear more sentimentality as to why a bike might become "grail" or "forever".
The original question "Grail vs. Forever" arose with me after a recent experience with a lovely Mondia Super - When I was in high school a friend, whose family was in property development and quite wealthy, appeared at my house one day with a sparkling new Mondia that made quite an impression on me. I was very jealous, and I have wanted one of my own ever since. Not long ago, at the Bike Exchange where Cap'n Jonny and I both volunteer (he more than me), a Mondia in my size was donated. Someone else put their name on it and it went up on the third tier of racks where it was hard to get at it. More recently, the original claimant changed his mind and I found the bike available on the "for sale" rack in the front of the shop. "Take it for a ride" they said, "we'll give you a special price", so I did. Well, my reaction to the bike on the road was "Meh", I felt a little crowded thanks to the short top tube and the bike felt twitchy for who knows what reason. I put it back in the rack thinking, beautiful bike but I'd really rather ride my Raleigh. I don't have space in my garage or in my heart for a bike that's just pretty (and/or collectible) but would never get ridden.
The original question "Grail vs. Forever" arose with me after a recent experience with a lovely Mondia Super - When I was in high school a friend, whose family was in property development and quite wealthy, appeared at my house one day with a sparkling new Mondia that made quite an impression on me. I was very jealous, and I have wanted one of my own ever since. Not long ago, at the Bike Exchange where Cap'n Jonny and I both volunteer (he more than me), a Mondia in my size was donated. Someone else put their name on it and it went up on the third tier of racks where it was hard to get at it. More recently, the original claimant changed his mind and I found the bike available on the "for sale" rack in the front of the shop. "Take it for a ride" they said, "we'll give you a special price", so I did. Well, my reaction to the bike on the road was "Meh", I felt a little crowded thanks to the short top tube and the bike felt twitchy for who knows what reason. I put it back in the rack thinking, beautiful bike but I'd really rather ride my Raleigh. I don't have space in my garage or in my heart for a bike that's just pretty (and/or collectible) but would never get ridden.
Also, ‘don’t ever meet your hero’ has some application here too.
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11-08-23, 02:01 PM
#31
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I have the Mondia Special, it rides nothing like you described. It a full 531 frame, definitely a very very fine bike on par with the top touring bikes of it day. It's very comfortable, I'll take this over the Paramount everyday.
11-08-23, 03:42 PM
#32
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Nobody is looking for my one-of-a-kind '76 Fredo Speciale to acquire, so it can't be a grail bike.
But since I built the frame myself (with Colin Laing) in high school, it is definitely my forever bike, in a way no other could be.
1976 Fredo Speciale at Rio Grande & NM502
But since I built the frame myself (with Colin Laing) in high school, it is definitely my forever bike, in a way no other could be.
1976 Fredo Speciale at Rio Grande & NM502
11-08-23, 03:55 PM
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Maybe don't worry about someone else's bike size? I dont give you crap about posting your ten year old surly on the c/v forum.
11-08-23, 08:35 PM
#34
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I'm not answering for Fredo, but just commenting because you seem to have issues with big bikes. You have made similar remarks to my 65-67cm frames. I two inches taller than you.
Maybe don't worry about someone else's bike size? I dont give you crap about posting your ten year old surly on the c/v forum.
Maybe don't worry about someone else's bike size? I dont give you crap about posting your ten year old surly on the c/v forum.
11-08-23, 11:43 PM
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I hope it's obvious that the Mondia I rode is not your bike and my reaction to that bike it is not meant as any sort of slur upon yours.
11-10-23, 04:56 PM
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I have bought some grail frames which are going to be built into forever bikes: Cannondale CAAD4, Vetta Team, Grandis Overmax, Veneto Altec 2, Fausto Coppi Lugano, Pinarello Stelvio, CT Wallis . Some others are already forever bikes such as my Kona Kilaeua, my Jamis Dragon, my Scapin, my Merida, my Peugot Prestige, my Raleigh Team Z, my Giant Tourer and three other frames such as the Trek 2300SLR, Giant Bronco and Gary Fisher Hookoo Ekoo will be built as forever bikes. As I have no more space in my garage, my goal is to build all my bike projects, enjoy and ride them to the fullest extent. Also there are some frames I haven't purchased because either out of my price range or because the quality of tubing used in the frame wasn't par to my expectations. What is somebody's grail is not necessarily the other person's grail.
11-10-23, 08:37 PM
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I have bought some grail frames which are going to be built into forever bikes: Cannondale CAAD4, Vetta Team, Grandis Overmax, Veneto Altec 2, Fausto Coppi Lugano, Pinarello Stelvio, CT Wallis . Some others are already forever bikes such as my Kona Kilaeua, my Jamis Dragon, my Scapin, my Merida, my Peugot Prestige, my Raleigh Team Z, my Giant Tourer and three other frames such as the Trek 2300SLR, Giant Bronco and Gary Fisher Hookoo Ekoo will be built as forever bikes. As I have no more space in my garage, my goal is to build all my bike projects, enjoy and ride them to the fullest extent. Also there are some frames I haven't purchased because either out of my price range or because the quality of tubing used in the frame wasn't par to my expectations. What is somebody's grail is not necessarily the other person's grail.
Making up a hypothetical scenario here. You get a call telling you that someone had an accident, plowing into your garage and one of your bikes was destroyed. Would you find yourself thinking, "I hope it's not the ____"?
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11-10-23, 09:06 PM
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......Raleigh International. That was easy, after all. I''m attached to my Super Course and my Gran Sport but if the house was burning and I could only ride off on one of them, it would be the one that fits best and works best.
11-10-23, 10:12 PM
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I'd like to pose a thought exercise here. If you choose not to go along, that's ok.
Making up a hypothetical scenario here. You get a call telling you that someone had an accident, plowing into your garage and one of your bikes was destroyed. Would you find yourself thinking, "I hope it's not the ____"?
Making up a hypothetical scenario here. You get a call telling you that someone had an accident, plowing into your garage and one of your bikes was destroyed. Would you find yourself thinking, "I hope it's not the ____"?
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11-10-23, 10:45 PM
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I've given up on the concept of "grail" bike anything. If I build up a bike, ride it, and find it's a "keeper", then I'm happy with that.
I've obtained a couple of my former "grail" bikes, and they were not life-changing or anything like that. In fact, I've sold "grail" bikes after getting them and finding they weren't as special as I thought they would be. "Keeper" is my goal now, and I'm happy with that.
I've obtained a couple of my former "grail" bikes, and they were not life-changing or anything like that. In fact, I've sold "grail" bikes after getting them and finding they weren't as special as I thought they would be. "Keeper" is my goal now, and I'm happy with that.
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11-11-23, 12:30 AM
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I'd like to pose a thought exercise here. If you choose not to go along, that's ok.
Making up a hypothetical scenario here. You get a call telling you that someone had an accident, plowing into your garage and one of your bikes was destroyed. Would you find yourself thinking, "I hope it's not the ____"?
Making up a hypothetical scenario here. You get a call telling you that someone had an accident, plowing into your garage and one of your bikes was destroyed. Would you find yourself thinking, "I hope it's not the ____"?
11-11-23, 03:41 AM
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Interesting scenario, but it will never happen.In the event of prolonged absence (2-3 days), I always hire a security company to look after my garage.I did that a year ago when travelling abroad. So far I knock on wood, I never had bad luck and I am always on alert and suspicious because not everyone has good intentions.
But imagine for a moment that you had a vivid enough imagination to accept the terms of the proposed hypothetical. Which bike would you be most upset to lose?
11-11-23, 04:10 AM
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A gate which is always locked prevents access to the garage and my garage is not accessible directly from the street. A security company using video surveillance is what I use and trust me, it is very efficient. I always keep my belongings under surveillance, especially when I'm away.I have more chances to get my old peugeot city bike to be damaged at the railway station as it was the case before than my other bikes being stolen.
11-11-23, 05:22 AM
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A gate which is always locked prevents access to the garage and my garage is not accessible directly from the street. A security company using video surveillance is what I use and trust me, it is very efficient. I always keep my belongings under surveillance, especially when I'm away.I have more chances to get my old peugeot city bike to be damaged at the railway station as it was the case before than my other bikes being stolen.
11-11-23, 08:50 AM
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I'd like to pose a thought exercise here. If you choose not to go along, that's ok.
Making up a hypothetical scenario here. You get a call telling you that someone had an accident, plowing into your garage and one of your bikes was destroyed. Would you find yourself thinking, "I hope it's not the ____"?
Making up a hypothetical scenario here. You get a call telling you that someone had an accident, plowing into your garage and one of your bikes was destroyed. Would you find yourself thinking, "I hope it's not the ____"?
1982 Losa built beauty.
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11-11-23, 11:26 AM
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A gate which is always locked prevents access to the garage and my garage is not accessible directly from the street. A security company using video surveillance is what I use and trust me, it is very efficient. I always keep my belongings under surveillance, especially when I'm away.I have more chances to get my old peugeot city bike to be damaged at the railway station as it was the case before than my other bikes being stolen.
This isn't an attempt to ask if you are taking sufficient precautions safeguarding them, but rather to inquire about whether you have more attachment to one of your cherished bikes than the others.
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11-11-23, 03:03 PM
#48
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What if it were a team of crack commandos with unlimited access to equipment and resources who were determined to spite you, shutting off power and blasting their way through the gate and into your storage to destroy one bike?
This isn't an attempt to ask if you are taking sufficient precautions safeguarding them, but rather to inquire about whether you have more attachment to one of your cherished bikes than the others.
This isn't an attempt to ask if you are taking sufficient precautions safeguarding them, but rather to inquire about whether you have more attachment to one of your cherished bikes than the others.
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11-16-23, 11:20 PM
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Hmmmm... Grail Bike... More like "My Precious". . . It makes you do things like peal the driveline out of your best road bike (the Serotta) to build the "something exotic" by John Slawta, like a Reynolds OS 753 frame. Much like falling under the spell of a evil dominatrix you find yourself doing things you would not normally consider... I think she wears her paint chips and scratches well.
Untitled by nemosengineer, on Flickr
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11-17-23, 12:47 AM
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Big distinction between the two terms, IMHO.
Grail bike - specific brand/model you've wanted for a long time. May even be specific down to a year, color or component/accessory combo. To me, the term can apply whether you do or don't have such bike
Forever bike - a bike you actually own, that, for any number of reasons, not necessarily the same as those for a grail bike, you simply can't part with.
Most of my grail bikes I don't own - Trek 990 MTB, 1988 Schwinn Premis (just for the wicked fade), any early not-Sport Stumpy, etc
Most of my forever bikes are not ones I've really desired, thus not really grail bikes. They're forever bikes mostly for sentimental reasons, ones with too many great memories to ever consider selling.
Grail bike - specific brand/model you've wanted for a long time. May even be specific down to a year, color or component/accessory combo. To me, the term can apply whether you do or don't have such bike
Forever bike - a bike you actually own, that, for any number of reasons, not necessarily the same as those for a grail bike, you simply can't part with.
Most of my grail bikes I don't own - Trek 990 MTB, 1988 Schwinn Premis (just for the wicked fade), any early not-Sport Stumpy, etc
Most of my forever bikes are not ones I've really desired, thus not really grail bikes. They're forever bikes mostly for sentimental reasons, ones with too many great memories to ever consider selling.