Robvolz 

They set it aside for me at the co-op, and then charge me $10.

i’m thinking of donating it back to the co-op after it’s clean for the annual silent auction on December 14. I will send a link so people can bid online. I have a feeling that many people will lust after the vintage stuff like us.

First question, I see it has some white paint on it. I don’t know if this is from rubbing against a white painted wall or maybe it was wet paint when it went on. I’m frightened to use goof off latex remover in case that affects the leather finish.

other than using 0000, steel wool, are there any better suggestions?



The saddle came off of a JC pennies bike. Clearly not stock.

Second question, the Bottom has some stampings, I heard a rumor that you can tell vintage by the stampings, and then I heard another rumor that the key to the stampings has been lost. Anybody know approximate age of the saddle?

steelbikeguy

regarding the white paint... maybe try some mild solvent?
An alternative is to apply some black leather dye, such as what you can get from the local cobbler.

My "recent" Brooks have that sort of stamp. The digits seem to refer to the last two digits of the year...

My Champion Flyer:


B.17 Champion:


and a titanium Swift that I bought used:


I'm not sure when these were introduced, but I have some doubts that they existed in 1989. I'm wondering if the 8 and 9 actually indicate 1998??

My older Brooks are Pro's with the same stamp... "B73"
One was bought from the LBS around 1975.
The other came on my NIB 1974 International.
It seems like a good bet that it indicates a 1973 build date.


Steve in Peoria

obrentharris 

I've had good luck with a plastic scrubby pad and a splash of water.
Brent

markk900

I could be wrong but my understanding is the stamps in the leather are batch numbers and not date coded.

The stamp on the canticle is a date.

squirtdad

looks like a professional or team pro

roadcrankr

I would love to see your NIB International. Did you ever post that to the group?

steelbikeguy

I've posted a lot of shots of it over the years, but I'm sure the internet has room for one more...



Steve in Peoria

Robvolz 

it says, Brooks professional, I don’t know what team Pro is over the difference is

I also really don’t understand small rivets versus large rivets

Robvolz 

maybe I am missing it, but I do not see a stamp on the metal frame

Maybe there was a date which they stop stamping

daka

Big rivets point to Team Pro, I think. There is also the whole "open nose" and "closed nose" business. I'm not sure what it means, but yours is a " closed nose".

jeirvine 

Chances are the oils in the leather prevented the paint from really soaking in or bonding. Before trying solvents or scrubbing, I would try carefully scraping it off with a fingernail, guitar pick, or Exacto blade.

And I think the "Team Pro" is the model with the large hammered rivets, and the regular Pro has small standard rivets.

-J

steelbikeguy

The "original' Pro's that I'm familiar with have the small rivets. I'm thinking of the mid 70's, so you can check the Raleigh catalogs of the era.
This is a shot of a few of my Brooks's, with my well-used 1973 Pro on the left...



My recollection is that the origin of the Team Pro's is that they were modified/softened for the Raleigh racing team. This was done by removing the leather from the saddle frame, treating the leather, and then re-riveting the leather to the frame. This required the use of larger rivets (so the legend goes) to hide the scars or something, so the large rivets originally indicated a very select group of customized saddles.
In the Raleigh catalogs of the day, the large rivets are only seen on the Raleigh Team model bicycle....



Presumably Brooks has some mention of this in their history??

Steve in Peoria

merziac

Open, early, closed, later.

merziac

+ many on the fingernail/pick.

79pmooney

Fingernail was my first thought.

bikingshearer 

An old credit/debit card (or similar plastic card, like an old AAA card) should also work. I have successfully removed unwanted old stickers from old frames using one (plus a blow dryer on "hot," which I would not recommend on the saddle).

markk900

Sorry - should have been more specific: if stamped on the canticle it’s a date; I think they stopped that in the 70s as none of my brooks saddles later than then have the stamp.

rhm might know more precisely.

steelbikeguy

to go back to the origin of the large rivets... I looked at my Rivendell Reader archives, and there was a brief article in RR #3 about the Brooks history. The large rivets seem to have been used just for looks.



Steve in Peoria

Kabuki12

My favorite Brooks is the Team Professional. The shape is kind to me once broken in and the large , hammered rivets look very nice. I ride occasionally with a good friend who was having problems finding the right saddle . He rides a modern carbon bike and was interested in my Brooks saddles I have on many of my bikes. I loaned him a couple saddles , a B17 and a Team Pro. He ended up buying a Team Pro and it doesn’t look out of place on his $7k carbon Specialized racer. The paint on your saddle will come off using the method described by others , nothing harder than plastic , I would try the balm used for leather treatment and a cotton rag first . I had bought a very nice antique metal car (toy) that had paint splattered on it and , while I was watching TV , scraped at the splatter with my thumb nail. I got it all off and the paint underneath was unscathed.

Kabuki12

In the Raleigh catalogs of the day, the large rivets are only seen on the Raleigh Team model bicycle....



Presumably Brooks has some mention of this in their history??
The Team Professional also came on the Raleigh Pro ( non team bike) in 1978.
Steve in Peoria[/QUOTE]

steelbikeguy

good point... I overlooked that.
My '74 and '76 catalog show that the Team Pro saddle came with the Pro road and track bikes as well as the Team Pro road bike.
Those large rivets were certainly a sign of status or just plain sexiness back then.

and just because this is a good excuse to show those highly desirable Raleighs of that era, here you go...





Steve in Peoria

Kabuki12

When I find them (Team Pro Saddles) for a reasonable sum , I buy them. I have a back up in case...

Big Block

I support the use of some water and a scuff pad.

The large rivets allow for a greater price to be charged.
BUT, it wasn't always the case.

Back in the 1940s/1950s, top riders would get the closest Brooks saddle to what they preferred for shape and width and then had it customised to allow for a better fit. These saddles would be be kept in use for years.
This consisted of drilling out the rivets on the cantle plate, and then reshaping or replacing the cantle plate. If the original Brooks cantle plate was used then the rivet holes would not align to the rivet holes punched in the leather. New holes in the leather were required and to cover the original holes a larger rivet head was used and installed by hand with the characteristic hammer marks on the copper head.
This practice then denoted a customised saddle and was regarded as superior compared to the standard factory small rivets installed by a machine.
Ottusi was one who modified Brooks saddles and used his name on the rivet to denote his work, and Rudi has written of one he owns with a link to further information. They are highly regarded.
Speedplay's Flickr also has some detail and wonderful photos.
Others, including in Britain, also did the customising and using the larger rivet to cover the misaligned holes.
This is one recollection https://www.classiclightweights.co.u...nd-butchering/

Brooks later responded with the larger copper rivet, set by a hammer, and they charge a very high premium.

You can always do it yourself. I do and I still use the same workflow. Some of the riveting tools have been upgraded with new custom tools.
Of course I do not need the larger rivet head to cover multiple rivet holes in the leather because I use new leather. I do it because I like the look. And the revised shape is customised to my sit bones, because I can.

Robvolz 

Thanks all

and that red is stunning

gna

I've had good luck using rubbing alcohol to remove latex paint. No idea how it will affect a leather saddle, though.