Out-The-Back

Hey all,

As the title says, I'm looking for a training partner that uses a power meter. Somebody in my area would be great, but it can be from anywhere. My reasons are pretty straight forward. I'm new to using a power meter, pretty new to racing, and have a lot to learn. I'm hoping to find someone that's at a similar point to discuss training and results with but also have someone to be accountable to. My thinking being, if I know someone else is going to see my power files... it might give me that extra little incentive on hard days and visa versa. The other is I'm taking in all this information but talking it through and applying it helps to reinforce it. I'll gladly work with someone who's been using this stuff for a while if any of you are willing

About me...

-I'm a Cat5 and have already done a couple races (crits) in the last few weeks with mixed results. A top 10 and a DNF due to a near crash.
-I'm training with a mission. I want to be competetive, and I have a few goals that will push my weaknesses. Riding 10-12 hours a week on average.
-I've read Friel's book and applying many of those principles, also making my way through Training and Racing with a Power Meter by Allen and Coggan and will be applying much of that. Still gathering base fitness data (doing tests) and using WKO+ software.

If anyone is interested, I'd like to hear from you so I can stop boring my wife to tears and get/give some good input.

Thanks!

ZeCanon

Post your graphs up in the training status thread. We'll mock/encourage you as much as is needed

Out-The-Back

^^^^hahaha, I'll check out the thread and see if I'm worthy;-) Still would prefer to find someone to work with on a regular basis though...

ridethecliche

Dude, this site is like free coaching if you listen to the right info.

carpediemracing 

I think you'll find plenty of volunteers to help if you post stuff here.

Off the top of my head...

- you finished top 10 and a "potential place" due to an "incident". It seems that you have the fitness. It seems you are working on your pack skills. This is kind of a normal place to be. However, you've experienced the ebbs and surges of a crit. That's good, you have the advantage there.

- I'm making an assumption that you've learned the importance of tactics. Tactics, once you have the FTP to finish a race, makes a HUGE difference in results. There's another thread here where a runner asks about crit training. Running = fitness. Bike racing = tactics. There's a local runner, top 10k in the area, who took up bike racing. Did it for a while. Basically stopped because although he was strong, he didn't place as well as he felt he should based on fitness. Heck, I could beat him in a race. He went and started doing triathlons or dualthlons. Won an age graded World Championship. He's strong, stronger than I'll ever be, but he didn't want to bother with tactics. Therefore he lost a lot. It was very frustrating for him.

- analyze where you stand for power. WKO has a great little button where it draws a chart for you, with the 5 second, minute, 5 minute, and FTP. It tells you about how well you're doing compared to your peers. As a comparison, I'm a Cat 3 that's in moderately poor shape and I am above Cat 3 for 5 second, untrained at 1 min, barely Cat 4 for 5 min, and untrained at FTP. I just did a crit in CA (out of my local area so I have no idea how the race was compared to other races in the area). It was too hard for me to get to the front, but the pace seemed not-that-bad. I was hitting 900-1100 watts pretty much every lap to accelerate up a short hill.

You can start focusing your efforts in a race based on your power. Good at FTP but nothing else? Work on something, anything, because FTP only wins time trials and really long climbs (20 minutes at a time where people can't draft you). Good at 5 min power? Start attacking the carp out of the field with 2-3 laps to go. 1 minute power? Go at the bell. Sprint? Learn the ever-evolving art of setting up for the sprint.

Power training only gets you power. It'll help you finish races. It doesn't teach you how to race.

cdr

Out-The-Back

You mean like this profile? Hahahaha


Thanks for the post, and I'd agree with you on a lot of your points. Yeah, that button is depressing! I don't have a lot of data yet though. 5s..barely a 4, 1m..untrained, 5m almost a 3, FT..barely a 4
I have a LOT of weaknesses, I need to work on, I'm using power and HR to point them out, focus on them, and monitor my progress. I don't necessarily think I'm weak, just plenty of room to improve! As for my racing prowess, I raced MX for a while, I'm not afraid to go elbow to elbow and I can hold a line. Thanks for the input and overview..good info.

Out-The-Back

So I've been thinking about the CDR post, and tactics for a crit next week. My last crit I was within a couple seconds of 1st with a ****ty sprint that got me nothing because I was in too low a gear coming out of the last corner. Shifted but it was too late and have been kicking myself every since. I did a sprint test this week of .2 miles with the following results....


Based on this , I'm not sure if I just need to work on a better sprint setup and duke it out, or as mentioned, go off the front with 2 to go. My 5m minute is very upper level Cat4 but I don't know I trust that. A couple of pertinent points.

*The guys that finished 1st and 3rd and are consistant finishers....
+I can out sprint both of them
-They are on the same team and have a strong team that works together
-I don't have a team to speak of
-One of them can chase me down on a long effort (i.e I'll bet his 5M is better than mine) unless I blow him up in the first 15~30sec

*It's a "D" shaped course with 2 acute corners and .5 miles
-That group is going to yo-yo so bad on that course
=stay top 8 and off the front
?sprint prior to last corner and try to gap the field
?Go with a full lap left
?2 laps left

Things to work on this week?

Edit: Here's a better copy of that data

MDcatV

attack from the whistle. dont look back, just go. if you get caught, rest long enough to attack again. rinse and repeat until you either win or get dropped. let all the yo yos yo yo, it wont impact you.

i wish i would have had the courage to try this as a cat 5, but all the guidance i was getting was it'll end in a field sprint so follow wheels, etc. eff that. the only 2 things you should ever be doing in a bicycle race are: 1) attacking, 2) planning your next attack. live it.

Out-The-Back

Didn't even consider that...but this may be the course for that. Those corners are going to cause carnage I'm sure! Don't know if it'll stick but as long as I stay Zone 5b and at VO2max power wise with a brief stint of anaerobic at the start, I should be fine to at least attempt it and will be able to recover if I'm caught. Hmmm....I think I'll go pre-ride it early this next week and see what the numbers look like.

ElJamoquio

Maybe I'm the only one who gets 'bugged' by this... but there are a couple of different number schemes for 'zones' depending upon who's bible you're reading. On top of that, many of us (ok, at least me) have not memorized which number means which zone.

On the other hand, just about everyone understands 'FTP' as what you can hold for an hour, 'VO2max' as roughly five minutes, 'Anaerobic Threshold' as one minute, etc...

Enthalpic

Not bad, are you heavy?

carpediemracing 

2 acute turns, super short course. Unless there are some other course characteristics, it screams to be "accordion effect". So, yeah, you have to be near the front, probably 5th-8th, for the laps where you think something will happen.

You have a good jump, as good as you need to win a Cat 3 race anyway. Your numbers basically mirror mine. Good 1 min power too, esp if you consider you could do a double jump in a minute (jump, coast/soft-pedal, jump).

I'd hoard energy like crazy, follow the guys at the front (else you'll burn a lot of matches going into the wind, but accelerating behind someone will be much easier since you have a good jump), and launch with 100% at the bell. Or the corner before the bell, i.e. 3 turns to go.

Teams of more than 2 means little on a course like this, except to keep things together when it's "steady". Two guys can work together to lead out one into one of the turns, or to gap someone off exiting one of the turns. If you have a buddy sit on your wheel as you dive into your attack turn and he doesn't go when you go, you'll automatically have 2-3 bike lengths. With your jump, maybe more. I figure that'll be more effective than a leadout into such a tight turn.

Once you go you have 3 jumps. The first to launch you, then two more to get around the last lap.

Weight doesn't matter if it's not hilly, not as much as height or frontal area. I'm short on the bike so I can get by with lower wattages. I've ridden at that wattage, give or take, at 175-195 lbs, and won field sprints up a hill at the full range of weight. If you ride a 60 cm frame, not as good.

cdr

Oh, and wheels. Light > Aero if you really have 2 hairpin turns on a 0.5 mile course.

Out-The-Back

This has been a lot of info at once and I'm just starting on this board...I'll get the lingo down...give me some time...in the mean time...correct me all you want. Zone 5b for me is "aerobic capacity" with the only other above it being anaerobic capacity 5c;-). I don't have my numbers totally dialed yet..it's a work in progress but my FTP is about 295watts.

Yes, I'm heavy...190ish and 6' tall...but I plan on "peaking" for a 5400' vert race in the fall...so I'm definitely working on my Power to weight ratio;-)

Out-The-Back

That graph is just my sprint test, the ride itself was a commute to and from work spinning...with a little fun mixed in;-) so I'd imagine the power splits aren't very accurate since it shows my 60' to be 168 and it's about 295.

Yes, one turn is slightly less than 90 degrees, the other is probably about 70 degrees. So It's going to be bad, corners are my thing (sportbike background) so I want nothing to do with the pack and people trying to make up ground late braking coming up the inside.

Thanks for the input, I'll go ride the course this week and see what I think of it.

carpediemracing 

Okay, I revise my scenario. I think a team would work well. I was thinking 30 degree turns, not 90-ish. Leadout would begin at the bell if you have 2 guys totally committed to doing the leadout, and if you do, maybe 1-2 guys would be in contention for the win (other than the guy getting led out).

If you don't have a team or allies/friends, find another leadout train. Bank on the fact they won't go fast enough (90% of leadouts don't go fast enough), stick on the wheel, and go.

Similar course, helmet cam:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syun-GZtkYg

Notice one team tries to do a leadout by simply stringing together a train. That is not necessarily a leadout. A good leadout goes so fast that no one can pass. In the case above I failed because I cramped about 100m too early. I didn't go fast enough either, because more than 1-2 guys were on my wheel.

In 2009 I did the same thing but only one guy could hang onto my wheel. He won the race free and clear, maybe 50 meters or so clear of second place. Unfortunately he wasn't my teammate but he's a good guy so I didn't mind pulling.

cdr

Out-The-Back

Cool video...isn't that lead out illegal? A hell of a lead out though! Got an idea as to top speed?

I'm on a team but it lacks structure, riders.....long story but basically I'm on my own. I'll have to look at the course but according to the map it looks like the road gets narrower on the tightest corner as well (3 lane to 2 lane).

Thus far I've seen a couple one man efforts (usually same guy and virtually always the same team) but that's about it and he's stronger CP30 but not CP1 or CP5 and on the strong team. Maybe I can convince them to go out and I'll latch on;-) and help work. They know I'm a sprinter though so they'll be thinking about that. I'd have to attack earlier than they'd expect.

Oh, and I'll do video as well so you guys can pick it apart;-)

Out-The-Back

The race I spoke of earlier in this thread ended up getting rain that day so I didn't race. However I did race this weekend. Did two races, 35+ Cat 4/5 and Cat 4/5. There were two distinctly different tactics recommended in this thread, I tried each of them;-) The course was fairly long, more of a circuit than a crit, and comprised of 8 turns. Unfortunately I forgot my electronics that day so no computer or camera that day.

First up was 35+ race. I had a team mate in this race that has been doing very well so I thought this was the perfect race to attack, cover breaks, and keep the race strung out allowing him to sit in the field and save it for the end. At the whistle everyone takes off pretty easy, I stay in the front 5 or so for the first couple laps trying to calm down and reviewing my game plan. Then there's an attack...I take off and the minute I reach him he sits up, pace slows and I stay in the front 5. Then nobody wants to work and the pack is starting to bunch up, so I attack, get about 150' and nobody follows...I sit up *bows head in shame* knowing I can't do it alone as there's too much time left and I had gone a little too hard. As soon as they catch me 2 attack and go about 100' off the front and stay there for about a lap. I'm still near the front..I take off to bridge and one guy goes with me, another guy goes as well but a bit late and then the entire field goes. 2 of us catch the break making a 4 man break and I call it out..."we're 4 strong, LET'S GO!" no dice, they sit up. There were a couple more breaks that I covered, stayed in the top 5 or so the entire race. Last lap I had told my team mate to hold my wheel and I go for it but blow with 2 corners to go. Team mate finishes 2nd and I finished 20th or so (didn't look) but felt really good about the race.

4/5 race, different tactic...sit in, do as little work as possible, attack mid last lap. This race wasn't nearly as fun. I followed my game plan to the letter and stayed between 5th and 10th the entire race. Last lap 3 turns to go I'm sitting about 5th I attack..go off the front but jumped just a tad too hard and really started to feel it with 100 yards to go and looked back...dumb, dumb, dumb! Buried my head and gave it all I had...very close finish for the top 5 or 6 of us but I podium'd.

A lot of lessons learned, big boost in confidence though. I gave a lot of consideration to MadCat5 and CDR's advice and did things I probably wouldn't have done otherwise...especially all the attacks in the first race (MadCat5) and jumping early with a few corners to go in the 2nd race (CDR)...so thanks! Can't wait for the next race in 2 weeks.....a couple more races and I'll be eligable for a Cat 4 upgrade.

MDcatV

V!

DrWJODonnell

you can learn a lot here if willing to listen. Congrats to you on making the decision to go for it. On the other hand, if you really want the type of attention you seem to be craving (analysis of power files, daily recommendations, corrections, explainations, etc) then why not spring for a coach? We are good here, but a coach can be better, and the fact is, that is what they are paid to do and what they SHOULD be paid to do. We are just here to humiliate each other, so if serious, get a coach too. Mine is pricey, but would probably be willing to work with you (plan2peak.com) and there are a bazillion other coaches out there with different strengths and weaknesses. Contact them, and find the right fit.

Then continue to have us tell you how it can all be done better.

Out-The-Back

^Understood. Actually I hadn't posted on here for a couple week because I was getting my training plan together which I have since completed and implimented it. Since I did this recent race and had tried some of the tactics and advice I was given in this thread I was mearly updating what my experiences were and thanking those individuals for their input. I also thank you for the above post and some of the advice you gave me in another thread.

As for a coach, my intention was to try and go it alone and share thoughts, techniques, results, and experiences with others that are also enthusiastic about racing and see how I do.

efficiency

If you're actually looking for a training partner, being more specific than "The Southwest" would help.