bikingbill

OK, we get that the Brompton and the Bike Friday are expensive because they pay their workers decent wages etc.

But do the math.

I purchased a Brompton in 2014 as an alternative to using taxis and rideshare on business trips. Yes, the bike was close to $2000 USD. But there was pretty much no alternative that I could take onto airline flights as "carry on" luggage (and in my case I needed a bike that could handle a larger rider). So over the years, it has returned at least 2x the investment. And now that I'm commuting from San Diego to LA (staying in LA Mon.-Friday) it's my sole means of transport here. So add in gasoline, parking fees and automotive wear-and-tear the savings are now hundreds of $$$ every month.

Your milage may vary.

Joe Remi

Yes, it is always wise to consider the value of the thing working properly for its mission over many days, months and years; followed by resale value. In the USA - the market I live in and understand - Bromptons and Bike Fridays can be used for many years, then sold at a reasonable rate. This all counts in determining one's thoughts about purchase price, even if it's not particularly useful to the OP, who seems to need a CarryMe.

Schwinnsta

Both Brompton and Bike Friday rely on different sales and factory set ups then the Asian brands. When you purchase Brompton you are picking through a dozen or more choices allowing much greater customization and resulting in thousands of permutations. Each bike is made to order. This is different than the Asian assembly lines. Call it semi custom. It increases cost.

If Asian bike manufactures can make a Brompton bike as well for a cheaper price, why don't they? The only one I am aware of is Dahon's Curl but it is not cheaper.

bikingbill

Curl has a load limit of 105kg, Brompton's limit is 110kg ... just FYI.

avole

They do, I have one. Trouble is, you have to be in Asia to buy one, although I have seen them on Alibaba.

berlinonaut

The bikes you are talking about are copies of a Brompton. They are of lower quality, which you indeed can see already when looking at the price (their end-price is lower than what Brompton pays for the parts and materials alone, not counting the labor, not counting the shop, margins). They lack the customizability from factory (which adds on cost with the Brompton as someone has outlined before) and they seem to be a clone w/o own innovation, being probably initially a derivation from the plans and forms that were used when Brompton subcontracted Neobike in the 90ies to serve the Asian market with cheaper Bromptons. Neobike delivered shameful quality for the whole period of the contract (despite being trained by Brompton and having access to the originals plans and tools). After the end of the contract Neobike, instead of returning these, stole them and these, now 25 year old plans and tools are where today's Asian clones result from. Creating a shambolic copy of someone else's innovation is far easier (and clearly cheaper) than to create something that works from own abilities. Plus the copy is almost always worse than the original.

avole

Berlinonaut, have you even seen/used one of these bikes? You do come across as a bit of a Brompton parrot at times.

As you know I have a Neo, which does have some points which are better than the Brompton, not least of which is weight, being made of aluminium, and far more standard parts. It's biggest downside is the fold, which uses a velcro strap, and the quick release hinge on the frame fold, with which I have had trouble as noted previously. It also happens to be a nicer bike to ride, for me, anyway, as the riding position suits me better.

Your history of the Brompton in Asia and Neo bikes is well known, and I don't disagree. I certainly don't condone copying someone's innovation or invention, which is why I would not buy a Samsung phone or tablet, nor run a computer using Windows.

I'd also pointed out I was replying to Schwinnsta, who asked a question, to which I replied, having highlight the sentence to which I was responding. They do make cheaper Brompton-style bikes in Asia, fact. No tirade required.

Abu Mahendra

Well, policing heresy and squelching any notion of alternatives or competition are hallmarks of cults.

fietsbob

Sheesh !

berlinonaut

Yes.

That may be your perception. I for my part honor innovation and (long term) quality and am willing to pay for that. Plus I dishonor copycats. Most of the times the sentence "he, who buys cheaply buys twice" proves to be true. Or, following the law of business balanace "There is hardly anything in the world that someone cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price alone are that person's lawful prey. It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money – that is all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot – it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better."




We had a lengthy discussion about that already and my perception about the quality of that bike is vastly different in many areas. No need to warm this up in this thread again - if one's interested one may look in the according thread. It may be the case that it serves your needs and is of sufficient quality for you. That is totally fine. In no way the clones (and there are a bunch of them) are better than the original on an absolute scale. And regarding your comparison of the Neo with your Brompton: I remember you judging on the ergonomics of Brompton based on your own model which had a too short seatpost for years and years (though longer versions are available to choose from when you buy since it exists as well as as spare part) and too low bars (though there are different bars available to choose from) and specs and details that had already changed years ago with new Bromptons.


And still you buy a copcat Brompton. How come?

bikingbill

Since Dahon is already building a "double fold" bike (The Curl), why don't they innovate and advance the state of the art?

Some ideas:

1. Monoblade front fork with suspension. Make the fold more compact and improve the ride.
2. Disc brakes.
3. Telescoping handlebars.
4. Toothed belt drive.
5. A narrow version of an 8 or 11 speed IGH.
6. Carbon fiber frame etc.

Some of this stuff that have.

Joe Remi

"Its biggest downside is the fold" is a funny comment while praising a Brompton clone. A bike whose very existence owes to its fold. 🤣

avole

The point being it isn't a clone, it's a copy in the way that Samsung smartphones are copies of Apple. It's a fair criticism, as the Brompton hasn't, to my knowledge anyway, been equalled in terms of fold, and Neo has chosen to interpret the fold differently and loses by it. It's a trade off, since you can carry the Neo much more easily anyway, because it doesn't weigh a tonne.

Berlinonaut, you make no sense. Of course I'm going to judge the ergonomics of Brompton on my own model, it would be senseless to do otherwise. The fact Brompton has updated some features indicates they recognize they got some things wrong, so good on 'em for that. That doesn't invalidate every other model they made, unless you believe the only good Brompton is the latest model. My bike is still a Brompton, even if it is seven years old, and much hasn't changed.

Mind you, and I know you'll have me put to the stake as a heretic, but if the Neo is as good as I remember it, I'll sell the Brompton and by another Neo Three, in fact, for what I can sell mine for. All depends on that central hinge, and whether I can do some magic with the fold.

fietsbob

picture off another place separable but not folding..

1nterceptor

Op said quick folding for commuting Bob @fietsbob. I would think a compact folder
will be nice too if squeezing on a packed train during rush hour.

So I wouldn't recommend Moultons and Bike Fridays; although they are nice bikes.

splithub

..it does'nt roll when it is folded. The frame tube is resting on the rear tire when it is folded. For me it was'nt necessary so far to roll it because my non-electric iF10 is 7Kg only. There is a grip handle on the top tube to carry it like a bag. It is a narrow package that fits in many places where other folders will not fit, between legs if trains are crowded.
It rides comfortable for smaller people. The non-electric is still available for around 300$ if you're not afraid ordering from China, i bought mine 2014 in a shop for less than 100€.

Abu Mahendra

price, please?

bikingbill

StanSeven

fietsbob

maybe study Rinko* mods , for quick bagging of a minivelo , hinges are heavy,
so a minivelo of premium quality steel will be quite light .

*Owner of Compass cycles and publisher of VBQ has his subscribing readers talking about japan's way
of getting your 700c bike on the bullet train in a bag..

For city folks to go riding in the countryside...

a 451 wheel bike that much easier I'd suppose..

ABu, pictured is a Moulton... price (?) even higher than the UK made folding bike.





....

rhenning

StanSeven thank you. The worst part of the folders section is the off topic answers and people with agendas. Come on admit it you know who you are. Thanks again for getting this back on topic. Roger

bike.gang.uk

Are you always successful to place a bromtpon in the overhead (oversea flight?) ...

KLM even charged me brompton in luggage checked.

bikingbill

berlinonaut

Well, not that senseless: From the range of Brompton-models you choose one that did not fit you sizewise regarding handlebar- and seat- height (aka seat-post length). You could have chosen differently w/o spending one penny more. To judge afterwards that the Neo would be a better fit in terms of ergonomics and therefor to claim that "the Bromton" in general is worse than the Neo seems a litte ridiculous in fact. You claim that the Neo would be lighter (w/o weighing either of the bikes) but ignore the fact that your Brompton has a Shimano dynamo hub, adding about at least 550g including lights, the six speed (230g penalty) and heavy Schwalbe Marathons, adding another couple of 100 gramms. All these parts you went for consciously - you could have chosen differently as you have the choice when buying a Brompton. So complaning seems a bit pointless. Your Neo has no lights, a three speed and Kenda-tires w/o puncture protection (and you have no choice of features when buying a Neo). Obvious that non existing features save on weight. Unclear, if the Neo is lighter and if so if it would still be lighter when equipped equally. And if so if that is due to a lack on endurance.
To complain about other things that already changed on the Brompton already years ago to the positive does not make sense again. If you buy a Neo in 2018 you should obviously compare it to a 2018 Brompton, not to one that is more than five years old and does not fit you.
On can compare apples and pies - the question is wether this makes much sense.
At least, after five years, you followed other peoples advice and upgraded your Brommi in seat-post-lenght and handlebar height (and lately regarding the tires as well). Less to complain now I guess. You could have had this from the start w/o fiddling around yourself.

I'd be interested to hear what you say about the Neo after having it used on a daily basis for five years. Will it still be promising? Will it last? Where do you get spare parts from and how long does it take? Stuff like that.

Abu Mahendra

I hear you. This is one of the many reasons to spurn Brompton. Many parts are proprietary, dealer-sourced only, with a price premium. You questions about the Neo are a double-edge sword that can easily be deployed against Brompton.