psycholist

Ok...I prob earned this. Always went to the same BS that I bought my bike to have it serviced, never had any issues, and anything that happens to the frame while there is a warranty thing. Big drawback has always been the two hour drive, plus there's usually a good four day wait, longer if they have to order anything. This last go round I needed a tune up, meaning hubs/BB checked, new chain, new cassette, and the headset was clunky so I knew it was either a repack or a replace thing there. Opted to give my business to a LBS and save the mileage, get the bike back sooner and I had learned that a couple of high-level local riders take their bikes there so figured the work would be good. Dropped bike off on a Friday, ran down the list of things I needed done and said replace whatever was necessary. Figured the bike would be down for a few days. Got a call the next day saying bike was ready to go, everything just needed packing...bearings all good. Amazing. Picked it up, found a few minor but easily correctable issues, and now 11 days later and roughly 400 miles on it the wheel is indexing, wants to snap back to the centerline. Well crap. Logic tells me it isn't an overtightening thing or it would have been indexing from the get go, right? So here we go, wondering what to do. Give this guy a second chance or just learn your lesson and let someone you know do it?

Skipjacks

If it's local, just go back. Ask the shop mechanic.

If it's an issue with the labor or a faulty part I'm sure they'll fix it for you. If not, they'll at least explain to you what happened.

shelbyfv

You should take it back and explain the symptoms. Avoid the jargon, you and the mechanic likely have different understandings of what "indexing" means.

79pmooney

How old is the headset and what type? Headsets die. Poor headtube facing, a step rarely done by a shop except on custom frames, poor adjustment, dirt, abusive roads and riding style can all shorten a headset's life. But even everything done right, headsets only go so far. At 20,000 miles, a cared for old school Campy NR is tired. For a $30 Tange with the same care, 8000 miles.

What could have happened here is that the HS was on its last legs with slight indents. (You said it was "clunky". First clue that the indents were started already. Also you might have had a touch of play. Shop takes out the play and now the indents are much more pronounced. Fresh, clean grease can make small issues feel bigger also just by not hiding what's happening.

I'd consider calling that shop. If they want your business in the future, they might be wiling to do something like sell you a new headset and put the repacking charge from your current toward installing the new.

Ben

SquidPuppet

Buy tools. Learn to do the work yourself. Saves time, money, and it gets done right the first time.

3alarmer

.
...unless it's something pretty exotic, a new headset won't set you back very much. It's pretty much impossible that the shop service caused some sort of indexing after 400 miles...much more likely as stated above, or even that it might be solved with a little less preload on the headset bearings and still work.

If you ride it a lot, and plan on keeping it, just replace with a decent headset that is not in the Chris King pricing category.

TimothyH

Replace it with a Cane Creek 40 and be done with it.


-Tim-

psycholist

Bike's a 2013 CAADX Ultegra, 32,000 miles. Headset=1 1/8 tapered. Third headset and yes by now I know the symptoms of a lot of things when they start. Yes, I admit I should get the tools and learn to this stuff myself but I don't have the patience. It's a vice.
I'll call the shop back and talk to the guy and let him know what's going on, see what he says. Maybe that's what happened, he took the play out and called it good.
Thanks for the feedback, folks.

fietsbob

"Indexed", meaning the races got dented, so the bearing balls settle into the dents and it takes some effort to get them out of those dents?

Kontact

The CAADX Si headset is a cartridge bearing affair. If it was good until just after your tune up, there is a chance that your headset was overtightened. Unlike older headsets, a cartridge unit won't feel very notchy if overtightened at first, but is damaged by it.

Luckily, all you require are new cartridge bearings, and maybe the shop will help you out on that if they overtightened it.

Andrew R Stewart 

While I agree about some cartridge bearinged headsets are easily overtightened and lead to early (note I don't say premature) indexing I do wonder about the OP's need for 3 (now 4) headsets within 4 years. That's a LOT of wear. By mileage it's about 8K per unit. But then I think about that, 8K a year... That's a lot per year and suggests the chance of riding a lot of miles in wet conditions is greater then an 8K per 4 years rider.


So is there something basically going on besides mega mileage? I can't say but I do wonder. It would be instructive for the old bearings (especially the bottom one) to be examined. Is there evidence of water, rust, discoloration? That "packing" was mentioned as part of the service makes me think the wrench found the headset dry of lube or whatever lube was there could be dirty. But to do this requires pulling off a bearing cartridge seal or two. Perhaps the "packing" referred to coating the cartridges with lube and reinstalling them. We don't really know exactly what they did yet IMO although we assume there was a final bearing adjustment made. Merely adding lube does nothing to change the condition of the bearing surfaces, only mitigates the loss of function for a little while.


I like to start my headset adjustment process with a slightly loose beginning. Then slightly increase the preload till the looseness goes away. Then I might back off and refine that line between smooth and no slop and smooth but too tight. The bearing cartridges have a few challenges in adjusting compared to more classic cup and cone ones. Generally the cartridge units are more sensitive to head tube/steerer machining/facing and with their often tiny balls don't tolerate rolling surface wear as well. The load capacity of a ball bearing is geometric with the ball diameter but only linear with the ball number, so half the balls that are twice as large has twice the loadability (but unfortunately also takes up more space, a no no in these minimal everything days.)


As to whether to continue with this shop I think that there needs to be a follow up or two before I'd write off the shop. A couple of points to ponder. This is your first visit to this shop with this bike (is it? A lack of greater detail makes this a likely assumption) with or without this problem, there can be a back and forth between customer and shop before all the choices, decisions, attempts to save cost are fully explored and a final solution (which can be different from customer to customer) is had. You dropped off the bike at the absolute worst time for a retail and service shop, one day before the biggest customer day (Saturday), or the biggest two riding days too. I can easily see the shop, with little relationship/judgement yet established, think it would go well if they completed the bike so you could ride on the weekend but they were enough distracted to not really spend the time to call you and give you the best case to worst case before they the service was completed. Having been on the dirty side of the service counter I have seen all kinds of mechanic judgements made, the ones that are best accepted are those where there's an understanding as to the ins and outs of the options and a guide line from the customer was made ahead of time or during the service. If on revisiting this the shop turns a blind eye to working with you (and this is not being a yes man but actually seeking the best term solution that you can also live with) then by all means walk away. But if the shop listens and offers options that reflect the already paid labor costs then I'd say they are trying to work with your needs and deserve another chance. Andy

shelbyfv

To be fair to the shop, I wonder if they ever told OP they "packed" anything? That may be a term he remembers from pre-cartridge headsets, not aware of the differences.

psycholist

Ok, I will try to fill in some details. I have a lot of history with this shop so no, this wasn't my first time in-though it was with this bike- and I was hesitant to go back. They were in business in the 90s, when I began to get serious about cycling, MTB, and there were little things even then that were issues, mainly in the work they did. But my needs were different then...I wasn't the rider I am now. I wasn't putting in the miles and thus increased need for Rx so it wasn't as big a deal. Then they shut their doors and went out of business around 2000 and I went elsewhere, and then finally got into road, which brings me to my current bike. As I said in my first post, the BS where I bought it gives me a discount on labor/parts and the frame warranty being a Cannondale dealer, but again, it's a four hour drive there and back, and a much bigger shop in a much bigger town with a huge number of cyclists. Here where I am, I may go months without seeing another rider. So flash forward to 2014...the son of the original bike shop owner here decided to make a go of it and reopened the shop, but I continued to make the trip to the shop where my bike came from. Then recently I found out by word of mouth that several competitive cyclists have been having him do their work so I thought hey, it's been a long time, he's had more experience, why not give him a chance and at the same time keep the $$ local. As far as being the worst night to drop it off yes, I could see that at the other place. Didn't matter which shop I was at, I knew I was getting in line, and again I had a pretty good wish list. I never dreamed he'd call the next day.
So in a nutshell, I had issues with quality of work over a decade ago, figured maybe he'd gotten some years and more experience, and decided to give him a try. As for what he actually did, I guess I don't know. Simply said none of the bearings needed replacing, just cleaning and repacking, and if I didn't press for details on everything on that list then I guess I should have. What I did get was a new cassette, new chain (SRAM Force though I wanted Ultegra) , BB no longer clanks, same for the freewheel hub, checked wear on brake pads/adjusted and....apparently just tightened the HS. Paid just under 200.00 So I'm sorry if I'm being thick, but...I'm hearing that this is a new cartridge thing and not just a loosening thing. It was overtightened and the 300 miles afterward gave me the indexing...?
And as for the headsets Ive gone through....(yes if I have to replace this it will be #4) I ride all year, rain, snow. All surfaces-asphalt, oil and chip, muddy gravel. Yes, I get contamination.

AnkleWork

What a bizarre way of telling a tale.

psycholist

been known to spin 'em

Andrew R Stewart 

I would restate that I suspect the previous year (aprox) of use likely wore the headset, this would be in keeping with the two that came before at about one per year. That the likely wear wasn't obviously noticed before (no specific mention of saying to the shop that the headset was in need of service) is pretty common actually. We tend to get complacent and not notice tiny week to week wear until... I can easily see that the headset was slightly loose on drop off and left slightly tight on pick up. 300 miles after VS 7700 miles before service, do the math (not that math is the only factor but is a fact).


My focus is less making excuses for the shop but to better explain how these things go sometimes. I see the shop's real mistake in not being more proactive. But it is possible that after 7700 miles of use (that with previous headsets is about 95+% of their being worn out) This one was in good shape, well adjusted and actually needed no service. That the shop claims to have "cleaning and repacked" it seems reasonable and would only add a few $ to the service. Unless I see defendable wear, damage, we already have a good trust with my judgements or the customer asks for replacements I am hesitant to spend my customer's $ without a discussion. And that is where I see the relationship went wrong, no call, just did the job in front of them. Unfortunately this is more common then should be. But this is part of how a shop also improves their game, feedback and a second chance.


The larger story does make me question the shop's motivations or detail attention. If the Op finds the revisit to be frustrating then I have no issues with his going elsewhere. I know I have lost customers before because we couldn't come to terms or had frustrating interactions. Better shops try to avoid these and learn from the ones that do happen.


To paint a possible future- Go back to the shop. Explain the situation and the frustration. Ask if the shop can redo the service and show the bearings to the Op just as they have come out (and before any cleaning, Is the grease still fairly clean?) The shop might offer to do this labor at a sliding scale from N/C to only the amount above what was already charged when the tune up was done. If the bearing is replaced (and I suggest that it does be replaced, any ordering in advance of the Op's coming in is another example of the shop trying to make right) the shop might charge the full amount or offer a lesser cost as a gesture. Remember they have no obligation to give you any part for free, arguing that the 4% of miles that happened after the service made all the difference in the bearing's condition is a bit of a stretch.


But the Op will figure out what to do on his own. I do hope that he offers feedback to the shop regardless. Customer service (this is not the same as the bike servicing) is a skill that is learned, perhaps his Dad wasn't the best in this... Andy

xenologer

Your First Mistake

was buying a bike from a [L]BS that isn't within bike riding distance.

psycholist

[MENTION=135358]xenologer[/MENTION]
ah, but it IS....

SquidPuppet

Eight hours in the car? Four day wait? That seems pretty patient to me.

Once you get your feet wet, it's all fairly basic, easy, and quick. You've already demonstrated that you have one of the most difficult skills/talents to learn. The sensitivity to notice a poor adjustment. That makes you miles ahead if you choose to turn the wrench yourself.

davidad

This is the headset. Cannondale CAAD8, Synapse Alloy, Slice, Road SI Headset, KB002


I would think that it would last longer with no real maintenance.

psycholist

Hi all.
So I called the shop back a few days ago and talked to the owner/wrench and eased into the issue. I told him what was going on and asked in the nicest way possible if he had actually laid eyes/hands on the bearings or just tightened everything up, that I wasn't accusing, just trying to go through all the possible scenarios of what might have happened and although there wasn't exactly an attitude thing, he did sound (understandably) exasperated and naturally said to bring it in and we will have a look at it but that the bearings were fine. When I got to the shop there was a customer ahead of me discussing some stuff and I didn't want to say anything in front of him so I just told ***** that I was going to run an errand just up the street, I'd be back in 15 and he said perfect. When I got back he had the bike up on the stand and apart and made a point of showing me both cartridges, said "now see here, there's absolutely nothing wrong with either of these two bearings, if they had issues they would be coming apart here" and ran his finger around the rings. He admitted that he had over tightened them and this caused the indexing, and all I can say is that now it is super loose, to the point that when I rode it yesterday for the first time I had to get the feel of it and not oversteer. I was a little perturbed when I first showed him the indexing, (I picked up the front end and demonstrated how the wheel was determined to snap back to center)because at first he acted like he didn't see anything really wrong with it, or else it was so minor that it was really a nonissue.
So there it is. He didn't charge me. I marked the day and miles down and will just wait and see what happens now but either way I am going to just stick to the old shop from now on. And try to get the white grease off that he left on my Lizard Skinz.

He made it sound like the bearing's fine until the housing fails and I'm certainly not a specialist but my understanding is that the problem actually starts with the internal parts, the actual bearings which could be balls or rollers or tapered rollers etc.

TimothyH

There you go, right there.


-Tim-

Crankycrank

I don't like to promote the name and shame practice but in this case if all the OP claimed is accurate then do it, name and shame this shop. The mechanic sounds like a turd. He admitted to overtightening/ruining the bearing race and didn't offer to replace it for free and told you it was OK to use is just incredibly bad service.

Andrew R Stewart 

Well it sounds like that wrench isn't really who you will want to have work on your bike again.


I do agree with him that most indexed headsets are so from race surface wear/fretting, brinelling and not the rolling elements (typically balls) becoming somehow misshaped so that partial ball rotations causes a force that wants to return the moving race back to the rotational point it is when riding straight. This conclusion only needs the experience of taking apart dozens of worn headsets and actually looking at them with a critical eye. Significant race wear points are easily seen when the balls are still in nice condition. This is something that many don't do. Many will toss the dirty old parts and move on to the replacement, no one pays for after the replacement analysis.


That he (or his wrench) misled you in what they initially did is, to me, the bigger problem for his future. Andy