Thomas DeGent no fan of hookless…
#301
Also don’t presume that none of these people have ever used tubulars in the past. Most of them, including me, probably have. I stopped using them decades ago when I got fed up of dealing with flats and having to carry spare tyres and glue tape.
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#302
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#303
Should Be More Popular
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Tubulars should be more popular?
Maybe for the pro's.
I have used them in the past, and the ride is fantastic, but not worth the hassle.
My take is the main benefit for hookless is for ease of manufacture and not really any benefit for the end user (other than maybe trickle-down cost savings).
Pass.
Maybe for the pro's.
I have used them in the past, and the ride is fantastic, but not worth the hassle.
My take is the main benefit for hookless is for ease of manufacture and not really any benefit for the end user (other than maybe trickle-down cost savings).
Pass.
#304
Senior Member
Right on schedule, normal riders simply call out your ridiculous arguments. If you did a poll on how many people are still riding tubulars on the road, even with BF Luddite bias, you would see that almost nobody cares about tubulars anymore.
Also don’t presume that none of these people have ever used tubulars in the past. Most of them, including me, probably have. I stopped using them decades ago when I got fed up of dealing with flats and having to carry spare tyres and glue tape.
Also don’t presume that none of these people have ever used tubulars in the past. Most of them, including me, probably have. I stopped using them decades ago when I got fed up of dealing with flats and having to carry spare tyres and glue tape.
I once managed to flat both tubulars at the same time, necessitating borrowing a tire from another guy. Luckily, that was in the early '80's. By the end of that decade, most of the people I knew who had been riding tubulars had switched to clinchers, so I'd have been out of luck if I'd needed to borrow a spare tubular.
Also was lucky that I was walking my bike the time the stitching on one of my tubulars gave way, resulting in a loud blowout.
That was around 1965, when tubulars were the only game in town for racing bikes. I rode them until about 1990, by which time I was glad to switch to high-performance clinchers for my bikes in the active roster. Haven't ridden my one remaining bike with tubulars for decades.
#305
Right on schedule, normal riders simply call out your ridiculous arguments. If you did a poll on how many people are still riding tubulars on the road, even with BF Luddite bias, you would see that almost nobody cares about tubulars anymore.
Also don’t presume that none of these people have ever used tubulars in the past. Most of them, including me, probably have. I stopped using them decades ago when I got fed up of dealing with flats and having to carry spare tyres and glue tape.
Also don’t presume that none of these people have ever used tubulars in the past. Most of them, including me, probably have. I stopped using them decades ago when I got fed up of dealing with flats and having to carry spare tyres and glue tape.
Now combine that with the claim of TL with sealant being sort of "flat proof". If that was actually true then id argue a tubular system is, by far, the better option. At least in theory. Only botique stuff available these days. Hookless is, by far, the worst, in theory and practice and hookless was abandoned decades ago bc. it didnt work. No its remarketed and the same old issues that caused the industry to move on to hooked rims re apper.
#306
Didnt read the whole argument, so excuse me for interrupting. The argument for hookless is it being lighter and stronger and cheaper than a hooked rim. Possibly thats true when only assessing the rim. However the issues with tyres blowing off and having to make tyres with extra strong beads and sidewalls to prevent said failure mode, does seem real. A tubular rim is even lighter, the system has no issues with blow offs, burping or snakebites, have no sidewall to bend and the tyre has no seam to the rim and can be run at almost any pressure you like without it coming off of the rim. You do have to learn how to mount it tho.
Now combine that with the claim of TL with sealant being sort of "flat proof". If that was actually true then id argue a tubular system is, by far, the better option. At least in theory. Only botique stuff available these days. Hookless is, by far, the worst, in theory and practice and hookless was abandoned decades ago bc. it didnt work. No its remarketed and the same old issues that caused the industry to move on to hooked rims re apper.
Now combine that with the claim of TL with sealant being sort of "flat proof". If that was actually true then id argue a tubular system is, by far, the better option. At least in theory. Only botique stuff available these days. Hookless is, by far, the worst, in theory and practice and hookless was abandoned decades ago bc. it didnt work. No its remarketed and the same old issues that caused the industry to move on to hooked rims re apper.
Now that tyre development resource is pouring almost exclusively into tubeless, it is not that surprising to see performance matching or exceeding previous tubular performance. The pro teams have now nearly all abandoned tubulars, even when they still have a limited choice.
As an ordinary rider I am more than happy with the ride and performance of modern tubeless tyres and roadside flats are almost non-existent. At least that has been my experience. But guys like Dave Mayer talk as if everyone is brain-washed by “Big Bike” and treat tubulars as some kind of holy grail solution for superior riders who value the ultimate performance advantage. Meanwhile the actual pro riders have to make do with the same “crap” that I have been brainwashed into buying 😂
#307
Funny how things go. Lots have no problem learning to mount and seat a TL tyre and getting all the associated gadgets and dealing with messy sealant, or spending hours cleaning and waxing chains, to get tiny performance gains.
But dealing with a tubular is out of the question
I believe tubulars was abandoned by the amateurs because back then there was no reliable way to prevent flats. No sealant and no kevlar inlays, etc. That combined with the hassle of dealing with the sown in tube and the tyre being glued to the rim was just too much. I get it, but you could make the argument that modern manufacturing could make tubs a viable option for enthusiast. - better tyres with inlay and sealant and no seperate tube, to prevent flatting, and tape to mount the tyre to the rim, to prevent dealing with messy, smelly glue. No to mention plugs in the event you flat anyway.
But dealing with a tubular is out of the question
I believe tubulars was abandoned by the amateurs because back then there was no reliable way to prevent flats. No sealant and no kevlar inlays, etc. That combined with the hassle of dealing with the sown in tube and the tyre being glued to the rim was just too much. I get it, but you could make the argument that modern manufacturing could make tubs a viable option for enthusiast. - better tyres with inlay and sealant and no seperate tube, to prevent flatting, and tape to mount the tyre to the rim, to prevent dealing with messy, smelly glue. No to mention plugs in the event you flat anyway.
Last edited by Racing Dan; 03-12-24 at 06:57 AM.
#309
Funny how things go. Lots have no problem learning to mount and seat a TL tyre and getting all the associated gadgets and dealing with messy sealant, or spending hours cleaning and waxing chains, to get tiny performance gains.
But dealing with a tubular is out of the question
I believe tubulars was abandoned by the amateurs because back then there was no reliable way to prevent flats. No sealant and no kevlar inlays, etc. That combined with the hassle of dealing with the sown in tube and the tyre being glued to the rim was just too much. I get it, but you could make the argument that modern manufacturing could make tubs a viable option for enthusiast. - better tyres with inlay and sealant and no seperate tube, to prevent flatting, and tape to mount the tyre to the rim, to prevent dealing with messy, smelly glue. No to mention plugs in the event you flat anyway.
But dealing with a tubular is out of the question
I believe tubulars was abandoned by the amateurs because back then there was no reliable way to prevent flats. No sealant and no kevlar inlays, etc. That combined with the hassle of dealing with the sown in tube and the tyre being glued to the rim was just too much. I get it, but you could make the argument that modern manufacturing could make tubs a viable option for enthusiast. - better tyres with inlay and sealant and no seperate tube, to prevent flatting, and tape to mount the tyre to the rim, to prevent dealing with messy, smelly glue. No to mention plugs in the event you flat anyway.
Anyway, the tyre manufacturers have clearly decided to abandon tubulars due to severe lack of demand, so not much point in discussing them.
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#310
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#311
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#312
Senior Member
Nope. I can’t qualify for the platinum card since I gave all my money to my dentist.
I get paid in disc brake pads and Orange Seal.
I get paid in disc brake pads and Orange Seal.
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#313
Senior Member
and getting all the associated gadgets
Ok I'll grant you that dynaplugs are sort of a gadget so there's one special gadget you don't need but is nice to have.
and dealing with messy sealant,
or spending hours cleaning and waxing chains, to get tiny performance gains.
And depending how you do it, it's actually less maintenance time than drip lubes. That's why I do it. I've got kids. I don't have the time to be wiping or degreasing chains.
But dealing with a tubular is out of the question
I believe tubulars was abandoned by the amateurs because back then there was no reliable way to prevent flats. No sealant and no kevlar inlays, etc. That combined with the hassle of dealing with the sown in tube and the tyre being glued to the rim was just too much. I get it, but you could make the argument that modern manufacturing could make tubs a viable option for enthusiast. - better tyres with inlay and sealant and no seperate tube, to prevent flatting, and tape to mount the tyre to the rim, to prevent dealing with messy, smelly glue. No to mention plugs in the event you flat anyway.
What happens if sealant and plug fails with a tubular tire?
#314
climber has-been
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I used to work weekday afternoons and Saturdays in my dad's shop, and I was the designated "sew up puncture repair" person. I didn't like that job.
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#315
Senior Member
Another advantage to tubulars is that you can collect a pile of them during the season and then, in November, look at the pile, sigh, and toss them all out at once.
In fairness, there are several good choices for glued rim tape for affixing tubular tires to the rims these days, I understand. However, I suspect most of the stalwarts here prefer the two-day tube-o-glue ritual.
In fairness, there are several good choices for glued rim tape for affixing tubular tires to the rims these days, I understand. However, I suspect most of the stalwarts here prefer the two-day tube-o-glue ritual.
#316
I'm not advocating widespread use of of tubulars. 99.9+% of all riders should be on hooked clinchers. The insurmountable performance and safety advantage of the tubular system is only necessary at the elite levels of the sport.
What does make me choke is that the bike industry is attempting to supplant tubulars with hookless clinchers, even for world-tour level riding. This requires ridiculous kludges such as the mandatory use of sealant, very specific stiff-walled tires that are impossible to mount in the field, and pool-noodle inserts in the event that one does (inevitably) have a blowout. The bike industry is thrashing around like a wounded snake attempting to come up with an alternative to tubulars for performance riding. Of course the whole objective of this is to come up with package that you can sell to your weekend warrior with a gold card. See: the pros use this!
Another advantage of hookless tubeless with pool noodles is that every flat requires a shop visit, further tying the user to a shop. A shop that is owned by one of the big-3 bike vendors.
To all those who disagree with me that they don't like tubulars because:
Fair enough; ride hooked clinchers. If you want to make tubulars as flat resistant as clinchers, then:
What does make me choke is that the bike industry is attempting to supplant tubulars with hookless clinchers, even for world-tour level riding. This requires ridiculous kludges such as the mandatory use of sealant, very specific stiff-walled tires that are impossible to mount in the field, and pool-noodle inserts in the event that one does (inevitably) have a blowout. The bike industry is thrashing around like a wounded snake attempting to come up with an alternative to tubulars for performance riding. Of course the whole objective of this is to come up with package that you can sell to your weekend warrior with a gold card. See: the pros use this!
Another advantage of hookless tubeless with pool noodles is that every flat requires a shop visit, further tying the user to a shop. A shop that is owned by one of the big-3 bike vendors.
To all those who disagree with me that they don't like tubulars because:
- They might get a boo-boo (a flat) and then what!!??
- Or tubulars are not worth the trouble.
Fair enough; ride hooked clinchers. If you want to make tubulars as flat resistant as clinchers, then:
- Buy heavier-duty tubulars. Not all tubulars are paper-thin race tires.
- Remove the valve cores and inject 20cc per tire of sealant. Presto, now your tubulars are almost inpeniterable as tubeless with sealant.
- Don't hit stuff.
#317
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#318
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I'm not advocating widespread use of of tubulars. 99.9+% of all riders should be on hooked clinchers. The insurmountable performance and safety advantage of the tubular system is only necessary at the elite levels of the sport.
What does make me choke is that the bike industry is attempting to supplant tubulars with hookless clinchers, even for world-tour level riding. This requires ridiculous kludges such as the mandatory use of sealant, very specific stiff-walled tires that are impossible to mount in the field, and pool-noodle inserts in the event that one does (inevitably) have a blowout. The bike industry is thrashing around like a wounded snake attempting to come up with an alternative to tubulars for performance riding. Of course the whole objective of this is to come up with package that you can sell to your weekend warrior with a gold card. See: the pros use this!
Another advantage of hookless tubeless with pool noodles is that every flat requires a shop visit, further tying the user to a shop. A shop that is owned by one of the big-3 bike vendors.
To all those who disagree with me that they don't like tubulars because:
Fair enough; ride hooked clinchers. If you want to make tubulars as flat resistant as clinchers, then:
What does make me choke is that the bike industry is attempting to supplant tubulars with hookless clinchers, even for world-tour level riding. This requires ridiculous kludges such as the mandatory use of sealant, very specific stiff-walled tires that are impossible to mount in the field, and pool-noodle inserts in the event that one does (inevitably) have a blowout. The bike industry is thrashing around like a wounded snake attempting to come up with an alternative to tubulars for performance riding. Of course the whole objective of this is to come up with package that you can sell to your weekend warrior with a gold card. See: the pros use this!
Another advantage of hookless tubeless with pool noodles is that every flat requires a shop visit, further tying the user to a shop. A shop that is owned by one of the big-3 bike vendors.
To all those who disagree with me that they don't like tubulars because:
- They might get a boo-boo (a flat) and then what!!??
- Or tubulars are not worth the trouble.
Fair enough; ride hooked clinchers. If you want to make tubulars as flat resistant as clinchers, then:
- Buy heavier-duty tubulars. Not all tubulars are paper-thin race tires.
- Remove the valve cores and inject 20cc per tire of sealant. Presto, now your tubulars are almost inpeniterable as tubeless with sealant.
- Don't hit stuff.
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#319
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Great minds, and all that jazz.
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#320
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#321
I presume you are one of these "elite" tubular riders then?
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#323
Senior Member
I like Dave Mayer.
But
” Another advantage of hookless tubeless with pool noodles is that every flat requires a shop visit, ”
Is that even remotely true? I know hookless are harder to mount, and I don’t use pool noodles in my tubeless hooked clinchers, but this seems a bit overkill?
But
” Another advantage of hookless tubeless with pool noodles is that every flat requires a shop visit, ”
Is that even remotely true? I know hookless are harder to mount, and I don’t use pool noodles in my tubeless hooked clinchers, but this seems a bit overkill?
#324
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I like Dave Mayer.
But
” Another advantage of hookless tubeless with pool noodles is that every flat requires a shop visit, ”
Is that even remotely true? I know hookless are harder to mount, and I don’t use pool noodles in my tubeless hooked clinchers, but this seems a bit overkill?
But
” Another advantage of hookless tubeless with pool noodles is that every flat requires a shop visit, ”
Is that even remotely true? I know hookless are harder to mount, and I don’t use pool noodles in my tubeless hooked clinchers, but this seems a bit overkill?
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"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
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#325
Senior Member
I like Dave Mayer.
But
” Another advantage of hookless tubeless with pool noodles is that every flat requires a shop visit, ”
Is that even remotely true? I know hookless are harder to mount, and I don’t use pool noodles in my tubeless hooked clinchers, but this seems a bit overkill?
But
” Another advantage of hookless tubeless with pool noodles is that every flat requires a shop visit, ”
Is that even remotely true? I know hookless are harder to mount, and I don’t use pool noodles in my tubeless hooked clinchers, but this seems a bit overkill?