Thomas DeGent no fan of hookless…
#601
Senior Member
Maybe I was being sarcastic. I thought the rant about large flange hubs would give it away. It didn't so that means it was the perfect amount of believable. People are too serious here on BF.
That being said, I do have 3 sets of wheels with large flange hubs. They do have a better ride than small flange. I wish they were still around.
That being said, I do have 3 sets of wheels with large flange hubs. They do have a better ride than small flange. I wish they were still around.
Likes For Trakhak:
#602
The Wheezing Geezer
Join Date: Oct 2021
Location: Española, NM
Posts: 1,147
Bikes: 1976 Fredo Speciale, Rivendell Clem Smith Jr., Libertas mixte
Liked 1,035 Times
in
491 Posts
I must not understand what 'sliding out' means because to me it seems really easy for someone to slide out in a sharp turn, regardless of hub design or spoke lacing and regardless of tire type, if the tire deflates or if the tire loses contact with the ground.
The fact that a tubular tire will stay attached to the rim doesn't mean a wheel won't slide out on a sharp corner if the tire deflates or if the rider hits a bump at a bad angle during the turn.
A shallow box rim won't keep a rider from sliding out on a sharp corner if the rider hits a bump, the wheel loses contact with the ground, and the rider is at a bad angle during the turn.
The lacing pattern of a wheel won't keep a rider from sliding out on a sharp corner if the rider hits a bump, the wheel loses contact with the ground, and the rider is at a bad angle during the turn.
I was responding to Fredo76 whose post I find to be of little value and erroneous because he attaches benefits to something that doesn't inherently contain those claimed benefits.
If someone slides out on a sharp turn using a carbon rim and disc brake, there is 0 reason to think they wouldn't have slid out on that same sharp turn using a box rim with tubular tire and traditional lacing to a low flange hub.
Like really, what does the lacing pattern have to do with anything? Why would a low flange hub stop a wheel from sliding out in a sharp turn better than the hub flange height of a modern hub?...and speaking of, why is Fredo assuming the modern hubs aren't also low flange?
I think his post was bad and contained erroneous information which misdirects the issue and frames the type of equipment he likes in a positive light. So I questioned his comment.
But since you two have responded, I am open to underswtand hat I am missing here. Why would a low flange box rim 3 cross laced tubular wheel not slide out in a sharp turn? And if that can be answered, then this can also be answered- why do carbon rim tubeless wheels with disc brakes slide out in that same sharp turn?
The fact that a tubular tire will stay attached to the rim doesn't mean a wheel won't slide out on a sharp corner if the tire deflates or if the rider hits a bump at a bad angle during the turn.
A shallow box rim won't keep a rider from sliding out on a sharp corner if the rider hits a bump, the wheel loses contact with the ground, and the rider is at a bad angle during the turn.
The lacing pattern of a wheel won't keep a rider from sliding out on a sharp corner if the rider hits a bump, the wheel loses contact with the ground, and the rider is at a bad angle during the turn.
I was responding to Fredo76 whose post I find to be of little value and erroneous because he attaches benefits to something that doesn't inherently contain those claimed benefits.
If someone slides out on a sharp turn using a carbon rim and disc brake, there is 0 reason to think they wouldn't have slid out on that same sharp turn using a box rim with tubular tire and traditional lacing to a low flange hub.
Like really, what does the lacing pattern have to do with anything? Why would a low flange hub stop a wheel from sliding out in a sharp turn better than the hub flange height of a modern hub?...and speaking of, why is Fredo assuming the modern hubs aren't also low flange?
I think his post was bad and contained erroneous information which misdirects the issue and frames the type of equipment he likes in a positive light. So I questioned his comment.
But since you two have responded, I am open to underswtand hat I am missing here. Why would a low flange box rim 3 cross laced tubular wheel not slide out in a sharp turn? And if that can be answered, then this can also be answered- why do carbon rim tubeless wheels with disc brakes slide out in that same sharp turn?
And my conclusion stands, regardless - not crashing is faster than aero.
#603
Bad example
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Seattle and Reims
Posts: 3,306
Bikes: Peugeot: AO-8 1973, PA-10 1971, PR-10 1973, Sante 1988; Masi Gran Criterium 1975, Stevenson Tourer 1980, Stevenson Criterium 1981, Schwinn Paramount 1972, Rodriguez 2006, Gitane Federal ~1975, Holdsworth Pro, Follis 172 ~1973, Bianchi '62
Liked 446 Times
in
209 Posts
I can't say how this fits into modern wheels and tires, but back in the late 70s and 80s my sewup wheels were noticeably better at cornering than my clinchers. It was my impression that the clincher tires were somewhat oval, so grip was lost suddenly if I leaned over the "edge" of the oval. Whereas the tubulars had no edge, so were more predictable. I am far from having very good balance but I was able to catch a skid on the tubulars. On clinchers, I just went bang.
__________________
Keeping Seattle’s bike shops in business since 1978
Keeping Seattle’s bike shops in business since 1978
Likes For Aubergine:
#604
Sunshine
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 16,805
Bikes: '18 class built steel roadbike, '19 Fairlight Secan, '88 Schwinn Premis , Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross V4, '89 Novara Trionfo
Liked 7,746 Times
in
4,306 Posts
I didn't question your conclusion, I questioned the reasoning you used to reach your conclusion. The fact that you don't understand I was questioning your reasoning, even though I laid out in detail why I question your reasoning, is spot on for this conversation.
#605
Senior Member
I can't say how this fits into modern wheels and tires, but back in the late 70s and 80s my sewup wheels were noticeably better at cornering than my clinchers. It was my impression that the clincher tires were somewhat oval, so grip was lost suddenly if I leaned over the "edge" of the oval. Whereas the tubulars had no edge, so were more predictable. I am far from having very good balance but I was able to catch a skid on the tubulars. On clinchers, I just went bang.
#606
The Wheezing Geezer
Join Date: Oct 2021
Location: Española, NM
Posts: 1,147
Bikes: 1976 Fredo Speciale, Rivendell Clem Smith Jr., Libertas mixte
Liked 1,035 Times
in
491 Posts
I've got a list, of people who like to argue about arguing, it seems.
#607
Sunshine
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 16,805
Bikes: '18 class built steel roadbike, '19 Fairlight Secan, '88 Schwinn Premis , Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross V4, '89 Novara Trionfo
Liked 7,746 Times
in
4,306 Posts
I bet it is...
Click on my screen name. Go to my profile. Go to user lists. Select 'ignore.
#608
I mean the rear wheel losing traction in the fashion that motorcyclists call a "low-side" crash, without sand, gravel, rain or oil present as an obvious cause. They just seem to me to happen more often on disc wheels, with my woefully inadequate sampling consisting of watching a couple of team time trial stages and being surprised by low-side crashes, as if someone had rolled a tire. I don't know the reason they would be more common, technically, and so supposed what might solve it - older equipment, because I don't recall it happening much before disc wheels. Just a guess, not an engineering claim.
And my conclusion stands, regardless - not crashing is faster than aero.
And my conclusion stands, regardless - not crashing is faster than aero.
Disc wheels are sensitive to crosswind, so that could be a factor in certain cases, but otherwise I don’t see much relevance. The pros push the limits in cornering and TT bikes are not the easiest handling.
Your suggestion of using old equipment would guarantee losing before they even left the starting gate. Sometimes it’s a case of win or bust in a TT.
#609
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 18,502
Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace
Liked 12,428 Times
in
6,354 Posts
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
Likes For genejockey:
#610
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 13,060
Bikes: (2) ti TiCycles, 2007 w/ triple and 2011 fixed, 1979 Peter Mooney, ~1983 Trek 420 now fixed and ~1973 Raleigh Carlton Competition gravel grinder
Liked 4,088 Times
in
2,643 Posts
From Cycling News L9ive Updates:
"Pogačar is just over 20" back on the Ineos Grenadiers led peloton. He has a front puncture and the tyre came off as he went round a bend. UAE Team Emirates get him back to the bunch as they start the climb to the sanctuary of Oropa."
Tubulars probably wouldn't have prevented that crash but they would ensured that if Pogačar did go down, it would just be the routine slide we all shaved our legs for.
"Pogačar is just over 20" back on the Ineos Grenadiers led peloton. He has a front puncture and the tyre came off as he went round a bend. UAE Team Emirates get him back to the bunch as they start the climb to the sanctuary of Oropa."
Tubulars probably wouldn't have prevented that crash but they would ensured that if Pogačar did go down, it would just be the routine slide we all shaved our legs for.
#611
Senior Member
From Cycling News L9ive Updates:
"Pogačar is just over 20" back on the Ineos Grenadiers led peloton. He has a front puncture and the tyre came off as he went round a bend. UAE Team Emirates get him back to the bunch as they start the climb to the sanctuary of Oropa."
Tubulars probably wouldn't have prevented that crash but they would ensured that if Pogačar did go down, it would just be the routine slide we all shaved our legs for.
"Pogačar is just over 20" back on the Ineos Grenadiers led peloton. He has a front puncture and the tyre came off as he went round a bend. UAE Team Emirates get him back to the bunch as they start the climb to the sanctuary of Oropa."
Tubulars probably wouldn't have prevented that crash but they would ensured that if Pogačar did go down, it would just be the routine slide we all shaved our legs for.
https://www.eurosport.com/cycling/gi...60/video.shtml
Oh, and it was a "routine slide." He simply jumps back up as he is handed a fresh bike. He didn't even get a boo-boo.
#612
Incorrect. Tire did not come off wheel.
https://www.eurosport.com/cycling/gi...60/video.shtml
Oh, and it was a "routine slide." He simply jumps back up as he is handed a fresh bike. He didn't even get a boo-boo.
https://www.eurosport.com/cycling/gi...60/video.shtml
Oh, and it was a "routine slide." He simply jumps back up as he is handed a fresh bike. He didn't even get a boo-boo.
#613
Senior Member
By the way, he stated that he hit a pothole and damaged the wheel. Nothing would've held up to that -- he would've been doing a bike swap with any type of rims.
Last edited by Koyote; 05-05-24 at 01:11 PM.
#614
climber has-been
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Palo Alto, CA
Posts: 7,349
Bikes: Scott Addict R1, Felt Z1
Liked 3,832 Times
in
1,903 Posts
Incorrect. Tire did not come off wheel.
https://www.eurosport.com/cycling/gi...60/video.shtml
Oh, and it was a "routine slide." He simply jumps back up as he is handed a fresh bike. He didn't even get a boo-boo.
https://www.eurosport.com/cycling/gi...60/video.shtml
Oh, and it was a "routine slide." He simply jumps back up as he is handed a fresh bike. He didn't even get a boo-boo.
Here's the same video on YouTube:
Rather than stopping completely before the turn, silly boy tries to turn with a front puncture.
Likes For terrymorse:
#615
Method to My Madness
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: Orange County, California
Posts: 3,902
Bikes: Trek FX 2, Cannondale Synapse x2, Cannondale CAAD4, Santa Cruz Stigmata 3
Liked 1,576 Times
in
1,091 Posts
#616
Watch the video closely, and it appears that sealant sprays out of the tire (onto the road) when it goes out from under him. But it was already flat -- his mistake was not stopping immediately to get his backup bike.
By the way, he stated that he hit a pothole and damaged the wheel. Nothing would've held up to that -- he would've been doing a bike swap with any type of rims.
By the way, he stated that he hit a pothole and damaged the wheel. Nothing would've held up to that -- he would've been doing a bike swap with any type of rims.
#617
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 13,060
Bikes: (2) ti TiCycles, 2007 w/ triple and 2011 fixed, 1979 Peter Mooney, ~1983 Trek 420 now fixed and ~1973 Raleigh Carlton Competition gravel grinder
Liked 4,088 Times
in
2,643 Posts
Watch the video closely, and it appears that sealant sprays out of the tire (onto the road) when it goes out from under him. But it was already flat -- his mistake was not stopping immediately to get his backup bike.
By the way, he stated that he hit a pothole and damaged the wheel. Nothing would've held up to that -- he would've been doing a bike swap with any type of rims.
By the way, he stated that he hit a pothole and damaged the wheel. Nothing would've held up to that -- he would've been doing a bike swap with any type of rims.
Last edited by 79pmooney; 05-05-24 at 02:18 PM.
#618
Senior Member
But riding the bumpy cobbles pavement, (I viewed that video) on the rubber of a tubular is easier (and less nerve-racking) than doing it on bare carbon (from Pogacar's words after). He was riding on to get to a better place for the team car to stop and assist him. Again, his words.
#619
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 13,060
Bikes: (2) ti TiCycles, 2007 w/ triple and 2011 fixed, 1979 Peter Mooney, ~1983 Trek 420 now fixed and ~1973 Raleigh Carlton Competition gravel grinder
Liked 4,088 Times
in
2,643 Posts
That wasn't much of a corner ans he wasn't going very fast. Rubber, even deflated rubber on that smooth asphalt should have done fine. But aluminum would be scary as s***. I know. I've done it. Now, maybe CF is better. Simply don't know.
#620
But riding the bumpy cobbles pavement, (I viewed that video) on the rubber of a tubular is easier (and less nerve-racking) than doing it on bare carbon (from Pogacar's words after). He was riding on to get to a better place for the team car to stop and assist him. Again, his words.
#621
Senior Member
We've got a handful of posters who believe that, since they were better back in the old days, everything else must've been better, too.
Likes For Koyote:
#622
He would not have been left riding on a bare rim. Looking at how he went down it was almost immediate when he started turning. On a rim with a tubular glued on he would not have slid out like that.
#623
Senior Member
I think a well written letter written to the team outlining your amazing insights perhaps you could score a paid position proving advice giving the team a substantial competitive advantage. Many ancient societies valued those oral historians who instructed others of best practices learned and almost forgotten.
Likes For Atlas Shrugged:
#624
Senior Member
Try to make an abrupt 90-degree turn on any deflated front tire, including a tubular, as Pogačar unwisely did, and you're going to slide out. (It's clear from the slo-mo replay that the tire stayed in place on the rim and thus behaved as a tubular would have under the same conditions.) I rode tubulars from the early '60's to the early '90's. They were fine. So are the various flavors of tubed and tubeless non-tubulars.
Likes For Trakhak:
#625
Senior Member
I think we can all agree that he wouldn't have gone down if he'd just been riding one of those airless tires.
__________________
Bikes: 1996 Eddy Merckx Titanium EX, 1989/90 Colnago Super(issimo?) Piu(?),1990 Concorde Aquila(hit by car while riding), others in build queue "when I get the time"
Bikes: 1996 Eddy Merckx Titanium EX, 1989/90 Colnago Super(issimo?) Piu(?),
Likes For himespau: