skye

Another reason group rides are dangerous. What may be a clear intersection at the front may very well not be when the back of the pack gets there.

Also, think of your liability. If the last words one of your riders heard before he got smacked was you telling him the intersection was clear, you just got yourself tacked onto the lawsuit.

When I teach cycling classes, I tell my students to ignore anybody yelling clear. Stop, look, and make the decision yourself.

BlazingPedals

Most of the fatalities I hear about in Florida are on the sidewalks. Grandpa, who can barely see and needs a walker to go from the car to the front door, still pilots his own 2-ton land yacht. It's sure a surprise to all his family members when he fails to negotiate a corner and takes out a couple of bystanders.

12strings

All I can say is that, we are probably going 5mph, if that, and the stop signs we encounter on our ride are easily visible in all directions for several hundred yards, and there's hardly any traffic. If you feel the need to come to a full stop at every single one, that's fine. We don't. And I don't know ANY riders who would blow through a stop sign without looking for themselves, even IF the rider in front called clear.

As to liability, If it is just a random rider (as opposed to an official bike club officer or official ride leader) who yells "clear", I don't know how much liability would stick if it was clear for them, but possibly not for a rider 20 feet behind them.

GovernorSilver

That's what is taught at city cycling classes here too. Also seems to be standard practice with well-organized group rides.

Just riding around with buddies in a group is a lot more chaotic than a truly organized group ride - no ride leader, no sweeper, no assistants, etc. And I'm sure some groups suck more than others.

SpeshulEd 

Why would someone yell "clear" if the intersection wasn't clear? If the line of riders is that long, people should be yelling clear as they go through.

And let's be serious here, motorists that kill cyclists barely get jail time let alone lawsuits thrown at them. I highly doubt any lawsuit would stand up in court where a rider was suing a ride leader for yelling clear.

Stucky

I could just imagine! I could just see Buddy Hackett clowning around, and Buddy Holly playing air guitar, and Buddy Ebsen reciting lines, as they ride! Makes me glad that I've never ridden with a group of Buddys!

GovernorSilver

Buddy Guy was cool tho. I'd ride with him again.

Stucky

Had to Google him...

I did forget Buddy Rich- I think he had that hit song c. 1973:

Hey...
Did ya happen to see
The most beautiful bike in the world?

And if you did,
Was it flying...flying?....

Ooopps! No....that was Charlie Rich
Buiddy Rich was the drummer, who used to excoriate his band members on the bus...

[NOT SAFE FOR WORK OR CHURCH]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omID1prJHFo

ColaJacket

But Buddy Rich constantly tapping on the handlebars might get annoying.

GH

66Satellite

Group rides started to suck about 25 years ago.

IrishBrewer

A good group will communicate well, pointing out obstacles in traffic and on the road while keeping in mind that it's just a courtesy and that things that can kill you will get missed so you always need to be prepared for an emergency stop or some other form of evasive action. To me, that's just common sense.

If you have a big gap in the degree to which the rules of the road need to be followed, you're in the wrong group.

caloso

In my experience, the best organized group rides aren't organized.

Stucky

The only group I want to ride with, is me, myself, and I. I might even let my imaginary friend come along.

GovernorSilver

He's riding with Stucky, not me.

RPK79

I only read a few posts and then did a quick search for the word SIGNAL on page one. I only saw it in this post. I think this is the biggest issue. If you are going to slow and stop you need to signal to the riders behind that you intend to stop. The OP did not state that they did or did not signal, but if they did not I lay the fault on them for the second rider bumping them. I would be quite annoyed as well if the rider in front failed to signal their intentions.

As far as the rest of the OP goes, I'd say it is clear that you are not a leader and it is probably best that you are stepping down as the ride leader. No offense, I'm not a leader either. It's just not my personality type, nor does it seem to be yours.

mi.tom

Yeah, I didn't read through every post, but I can say I've put a little over 1500 miles on this year on the roads by myself. I have also driven many many miles this year. I agree that there may not be a need to stop at every signal or sign. I have also come across group rides on the roads around Kalamazoo and have gotten quite annoyed with the behavior I have witnessed. There have been times I come to a 4 way stop only to have one rider come into the intersection and hold up his hand for me to stop while a group spread over a large distance blows through. Or the ride where they are are 4-5 abreast (illegal) on rolling roads with no passing allowed. Yes I have come across group rides where there seems to be a lead who makes sure things like these things don't happen but this is less likely to be seen in my eyes.

bikingshearer 

A couple suggestions for the OP -

1. Absolutely institute a policy of signaling or calling out to other riders. For folks behind you, point out obstacles (debris, glass, grates, bumps - if you want to avaoid it, point it out to the riders behind you). If you are slowing or stopping, signal it and call it out. From the back, yell "car back" to the riders ahead of you when you hear an approaching vehicle or see it in your rear-view mirror (yes, I'm one of *those*).

2. Consider leading rides intended for beginners so you can teach impressionable minds about good cycling etiquette, good cycling technique (especially the importance of maintaining a nice, predictable straight line) and good survival skills. Let someone else lead the rides for people who have already developed bad habits, at least for a while.

I confess that I do roll through stop signs and, if a traffic light will not trip for me, I will even run a traffic light (after stopping). But I never never never just blast through without making damn sure there are no cars approaching that will hit me or even have to slow down for me.

The whole point of traffic laws is to promote predictability. The more one can predict what the other guy will do, the safer everyone is, whether cyclist, pedestrian, motorcyclist or driver. When you remove the predictability created by stop signs, stop lights, center lines, what have you, it becomes Death Race out there. So while I am not as committed to the letter of the law as you are, I am very committed to the spirit of the law. Stick to your guns.

WonderMonkey

Today I went on the exact same ride as I did in my original post but went with the person who has traditionally led it. Very experienced group ride and leader. There were a total of five people. All went well for the most part excepting three things.

1 - I made sure at stops I was not right in front of people and I slowed to balance and then went through. Sometimes I was totally stopped and sometimes I wasn't. I did that to see how it felt.

2 - On the same stops the ride leader would approach the stop sign already intending on gong through and then would stop if needed. This means twice he had to make an adjustment to stop and once he was already mostly through the stop sign. Another time he went through and it was pretty quick a car came in the lane he went to. If we were all blindly following the leader something would have happened.

3 - Twice vehicles stacked up behind us and couldn't pass because we were strung out. The cars played nice but I felt terrible. I'm sure they were people on their way somewhere and now hey had to just crawl behind us for a pretty fair distance. I know we are all entitled and such with the laws but I didn't think it was good relationship building with the cars.

Things I Noticed
- One guy in the group also went through stop signs but he approached them with intentions to stop and went through if it was safe. WAY DIFFERENT than the group leader who approached with intentions to go through and stopped if he had to. I'm not sure how the group leader is still alive.

- I found myself enjoying the ride instead of hammering it out. It was open to all riders so even though I would have preferred to have kicked it up a bit I thought just doing a nice ride was .... nice.

- It was chilly at the beginning so I took the advice I've read in these forums and the internet and started out my ride also a bit chilly. I warmed up nicely. I will say I need to get some jerseys with pockets in the back so I can take off some items.

Maelochs

Thanks for the pleasant and mildly inspirational follow-up.

Nothing against the leader, but some folks ride so as to justify the idiots in cars that yell at cyclists.

WonderMonkey

I think before I try to instruct impressionable minds I need to become more experienced at group rides to see what I feel reality is. It's easy to sit her at the keyboard and feel that because of a ride or two I got a feel for it. However you point is still valid, I will end up leading some rides I think but I'll make sure my route is what I would want to ride on. I've already begun leading group rides on the bike paths but will on the roads. I think.

WonderMonkey

They certainly don't help, do they? And I'm sure it's like many things, the few form the opinion of the majority.

I did enjoy the ride outside those few things.

caloso

In my experience, the only thing that motorists hate more than cyclists flouting traffic laws is cyclists stringently obeying traffic laws.

WonderMonkey

No motorist behaved poorly on either of my rides. It was more of how *I* felt by holding them up, not just briefly but for an extended amount of time. Is it any different than driving behind a car that is going extremely slow for now apparent reason? Other than the width of the car itself of course. Do you think "My god, what the heck is that person thinking, what a jerk!" Two miles later and you are wishing death on the car in front of you because the road and traffic won't allow you to pass. Sub in a bicycle for that car and it's the same thing. Just becase WE are on bikes doesn't mean we have to forget the point of view of the driver. If we expect drivers to play nice with us, we should play nice with them.

Stucky

Amen! If I'm operating a slower-moving vehicle- be it a tractor or a bicycle, I consider it my duty to do whatever is reasonably practical to let faster moving vehicles get by/not inconvenience them, wherever/whenever possible. I treat drivers as I wish to be treated when I am driving- and as a result, I get nothing but respect from motorists (Who, in my area, are not used to seeing cyclists)- and I've never had a problem.

There's nothing I abhor more than cyclists who act like they own the road. They do nothing but cause motorists to hate us.

You'd expect adult cyclists who are usually also drivers themselves, to be more considerate and not act as if they were oblivious 6 year-olds.

WonderMonkey

Love it. No matter what car drivers feel or do we must take care of OUR BUSINESS and do OUR PART in the relationship. It's like that in everything. As soon as both parties feel "Well THEY...." then nothing advances. It's only going to get so good, so why not get to that point and fight to stay there?