Trakhak

The rider in the GCN clip is clearly riding up an ultra-steep hill of the sort used for hill-climbing competitions. It's steep enough that he can't get out of the saddle or else his rear wheel will lose traction, forcing him to put a foot down.

He's not pulling up on the handlebars, not only because doing so is a waste of effort anywhere other than initiating a breakaway or contesting a sprint, but also because he'd likely lift the front wheel on a pitch that steep.

Thus, his only choices to keep himself going are to move his center of gravity from side to side and forward and back. He moves his upper body to the left and down as his left pedal approaches the 90 degrees forward point. He then sits up a bit and moves his body to the right in preparation for the right pedal stroke.

friday1970

I don't have any graphs, charts, etc, to make my point. Just time spent on the rollers during the winter
When comparing drops, hoods, or hands on the tops, I do notice a difference.
Comparing the tops to the drops, I'm about 1-1.5mph faster on my 4" set of rollers when on the tops. And when comparing tops to hoods, it's about 1/2-1mph faster on tops than hoods. It's not much. But it does say something about position efficiency when pushing air isn't a factor.
Obviously in real world scenarios, the drops will always be faster than hoods or tops, simply because I'm cutting through less air. I'm sure there is some scientific formula for this. But I haven't the brains or patience to find it.

njkayaker

Being "a good technique" stated as fact without supporting evidence.

I provided some support that it isn't a good technique. You provided nothing.

It makes no sense to criticize other people when you are doing the same thing.

If it was such a good thing to do, it should be easy to find references that recommend it.

=======================

https://us.humankinetics.com/blogs/e...m-for-cyclists

Says it wastes energy:
https://www.cptips.com/climb.htm

Says it wastes energy:
https://www.220triathlon.com/trainin...ycling-uphill/

"Rocking the bike violently" while standing is "inefficient":
https://cyclingtips.com/2018/06/what-you-should-know-about-riding-out-of-the-saddle/

If it wastes any energy, why do it? At this point, you are required to provide some support indicating it's useful.

Some people do the bobbing thing even when their quads are not fatigued.

terrymorse 

OK, experiment: Go up a 25% grade in the saddle all the way. Report back on whether or not bobbing helped you complete the climb (good), or it didn't help (bad).



Evidence: The video I provided of the GCN cyclist climbing a 28% grade. He wasn't bobbing until he needed it to keep from stalling.

Evidence: This guy, who still managed to win a few races:




Maybe they should reserve the use of bobbing for when it's actually useful. Or not.

njkayaker

This is silly. There are more examples than that that it isn't efficient. And you haven't provided anything that indicates it's a good technique!

No, that's only evidence of somebody bobbing. It says nothing at all about whether he's better off doing it.

That's more of a side-to-side rocking. Not much bobbing at all. It's also no evidence that he couldn't do better without the bobbing.

If it was such a good technique, you'd see all sorts of recommendations for it.

terrymorse 

As compared to your evidence, a couple of GCN guys who say bobbing doesn't look "pro" enough?

But back to the original claim: bobbing isn't helping this cyclist struggling up the 28% grade.





Some simple body kinematics shows that's objectively false. The "feet on scale, sit on the edge of a chair and bob" experiment demonstrates that clearly.

njkayaker

I posted a bunch of links. You provided nothing beyond examples of people bobbing.

If it was such a good technique, you'd see all sorts of recommendations for it.

And people might still do better not bobbing. Because cycling isn't sitting on a chair.

Even if it's the "only thing left", that doesn't mean it's good technique.

You need to find some link that says bobbing (not rocking) is good technique.

terrymorse 

Get back to me after you've done the experiments I've described. Or you can just accept what the results of those experiments are. The results are obvious.

njkayaker

No. You need to provide references.

If it was such a good idea, it should be easy to find them!

terrymorse 

I don’t claim that bobbing is a “good idea”. It is, however, an essential tool when you are at your limit. At that point, it is vitally helpful.

The claim that bobbing doesn’t increase force into the pedals is trivially false. The “chair and scale” experiment proves it.

indyfabz

Style card suspended for one month.

Seriously....Nice photo. When I get home I’ll try to remember to post a similar one of me climbing in the Malheur National Forest on the second day of Cycle Oregon back in 2002.

genejockey 

If it didn't work, riders wouldn't do it. It's not widely recommended, probably because it's generally used close to the end of endurance, just to keep the pedals turning right now, for the next little bit, till it eases off or you reach the top. It's one of the things you'll hear race commenters saying "He's all over the bike", meaning he's just barely able to keep going. It's not the most efficient way to climb, but it will keep you going.

PeteHski

I think you maybe under-estimate how the human brain/body naturally adapts to coping with extreme stress. If experienced cyclists are observed bobbing when climbing critically steep slopes on the limit, then that suggests they are doing it for a very good reason. Whether or not it is considered "good" technique is pretty irrelevant if they are unable to get up the slope in any other way. You see all manner of improvised technique in the pro peloton when they are climbing on the absolute limit of blowing up. Text-book technique goes out of the window at that point and it becomes raw survival mode. You recruit whatever muscle groups your brain can scrape together in those situations.

terrymorse 

Yes. Well written, thank you.

indyfabz

I’ve done it. Don’t know if it helped me physically, but definitely mentally. It gave my mind something to focus on other than the suffering.

indyfabz

How do I look, besides being guilty of having mismatched water bottles?

PeteHski

You look happy and that is definitely good technique!

indyfabz

Thanks. We had already gone over one 4,000+ pass that morning and were heading up to two close to each other summits of over 6,000'. It had been very cold the night before, hence the arm warmers, booties and glove liners. We camped on a cattle ranch in Ironside. In the morning my tent fly and poles had ice on them. I thik I averaged about 93 miles/day in 6 days of riding with one rest day after day 4. Oh to be younger again.

ofajen

I’m going to recommend this old article by Keith Bontrager for thinking about this topic.

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/kops.html

It’s actually a sort of apology for his method of frame design and an argument that the Knee Over Pedal Spindle method for fore-aft saddle position is not based on physiology and just basically happenstance that it is roughly ok.

But he analyzes the forces in play in both seated and standing positions in a way that may be helpful to consider.

Otto

njkayaker

Yes, it's a failure of technique.

It's not something people should go out and choose to do.

It's something people are stuck doing out of desperation.

terrymorse 

You look like a climber, with an excellent poker face. Don't let them see you suffering!

A suffer face:


Kim's suffer face (don't believe it, she will crush you)

Moisture

What do you notice in terms of frame geomtery between a frame designed for drop bars (leaning) and flat bars (more upright)

Well, with my Nishiki (designed for quite aggressive riding position, really only achievable by people with a specific low body fat percentage) other than the obvious shorter reach and top tube to compensate for the drop bars, you'll notice that the chainstays on a drop bar bike are about 2cm shorter on average to compensate for the extra weight over the front axle. This is also going to change the seat tube angle, is a steeper seat tube is better for this type of position.

On my other bike, a trek fx 7.3, its really not drastically different from my drop bar designed bike. Chainstays are longer, fork had less rake, slightly longer top tube and reach (~1cm..) otherwise , not much different. I've actually compensated for that 1cm in reach with the stem on the nishiki, so they feel very similar right now in terms of riding position. I haven't really gotten an opportunity to ride the Trek yet, but if you want to ride upright, you'll definrtly want to look for longer chainstays as they help to stabilize the bike on steep climbs or during hard acceleration from a low speed when all of your weight is being shifted rearwards.

Otherwise, since the top tube and reach is about the same as almost any other drop bar bike, I dont see any reason why such a hybrid bike wouldn't be a fantastic drop bar conversion as long as you use an appropriately shorter stem.

indyfabz

I faked it when I saw the sign for official photos. Resumed my suffer face and mumbled expletives after I passed. I’m on the east coast. I had not done climbing like that since my 7 week, self contained tour out west in 2000. Seattle to Glacier NP then south through MT, WY and CO, ending in Cortez, CO.

The vendor had them printed by the end of the next day. Amazing when you consider there were at least 2,000 riders. I couldn’t pass up purchasing it.

terrymorse 

Well done hiding the pain, at any rate. It takes concentration to keep that poker face going.

Here's another photo from that same ride, farther up Heartbreak Hill. Face and form are starting to crumble.

satrain18

Actually, your weight is completely on the saddle, therefore, the center of gravity is well behind the pedals.


The Dutch and the habitats of Copenhagen don't have to deal with hills. They don't lean forward. Ever. And when the Swedes encounter a hill, they get off and push.