mschwett 

again, that’s how i interpreted larry’s statement which referenced “any” braking force, without stating the context (that you either saw or are implying) of a full out emergency downhill stop.

i never said it was faster. i didn’t see the disclaimer that the discussion was exclusively about “braking at the limits.” personally i try and use common sense to avoid needing to brake at the limits, regardless of what larry or anyone else online says.

njkayaker

??? Really? This is not a reasonable interpretation at all.

He outlines the "premise" in the very first sentence.

The discussion is about the fastest way to brake, something that you'd do in an emergency.

(It's "self evident" that it's preferable to avoid emergency braking.)

Larry's being careless. If the rear brake never had "any braking force", there would be no rear brakes.

No, you didn't say it was faster. Other people did (based on their lack of experience).

The "controversy" here is about "braking as fast as possible" ("braking at the limits"). The thread has ended-up mostly talking about that. Even the original thread topic ("crashing techniques") would tend to elicit discussions of fast/emergency braking over "gentle" braking. Maybe, you ignored all the other posts?

While there are no "disclaimers" about what should be discuss, you aren't really being clear that you are talking about "gentle" braking.

LarrySellerz

Yup

LarrySellerz

All I was saying was that in an "emergency" the fastest way to stop on good tarmac is only using the front brake only, and if one wanted to practice this taking off the back brake can help force one to learn how to use the front brake without the "backing" of the rear brake. Its just a training sugestion for someone who wants to practice

tomato coupe

My training suggestion is to remove your front tire to practice bike handling when your tubular rolls off the rim.

livedarklions

Yes, all this talk about what stops the bike fastest loses track that that might not be the same thing as the fastest way to stop our bodies.

terrymorse 

True, using only the rear brake avoids the theoretical but almost never observed "cyclist over the bars" problem.

But using only the rear brake produces the very real "can't stop quickly" problem.

livedarklions

Having been a kid when everything available for my age was coaster braked, the skidding on those bikes was spectacular. We actually competed to see who could make the biggest skid mark on the pavement. Those marks could be a couple of feet long, as I recall.

terrymorse 

Fortunately for them, those kids weren't descending steep and twisty mountain roads on coaster brake bikes.

livedarklions

Is that a challenge? Think I'd better pass.
Two foot skid mark at speed the kids could make the bike go on a flat sidewalk is definitely not fast stopping. Had to be on the sidewalk, btw, because you could really see the skid marks on the concrete..

cyclezen

Been there, done that. Happened on a regular Sat group ride, some years back, Double paceline, strong but not crazy pace, one rider hit 'something', wheel kicks and he goes down, rider in front of me is next and he piles into him, I brake hard, slide back as quick as possible, front wheel hits a tarmac lump (prolly what started the crash in the first place...) and stops dead, wheel jacks perpendicular and I go Endo... guy's bike in front of me, I land head first on his bars, they crease my eye brow - 4 stitches worth... I still came out better than most... jackknife is completely possible ... LOL!

Who 'Practices'??? LOL! I'd say 99.99% don;t. and never did. I was instructed to 'practice early on... so I did some practice session in parking lots a couple times a year, early season and late summer (when it was really hot & humid to do hard rides). Haven't done one in some 6 yrs... Great Reminder! Thanks.. this week... back on that program.
WHY take off the rear brake ??? If you wanna practice or use only the front brake, do that. Why does one have to take off the rear brake, just don;t use it...
When I do practice I usually start with Front brake only, for which a key part is developing a good/quick technique to get your weight/mass rearward as quickly as possible. A sideways skid is always gonna result in less danger/damage than an Endo... Once I feel I've got some good control on front braking, I add in the rear...
Developing the proper touch to rear braking is a key, and not an automatic good response. All this needs to become automatic, for it all to jive properly.
Given I haven't really done it in years - I'm sure my emergency braking skills are currently sub-standard. So, yes, braking practice is again on the agenda.


I don;t think over the bars is theoretical or even remote these days. I don;t believe may cyclist, including some Pros know the capabilities of their disk brakes.
I've seen at least 3-4 occasions, when Pros have badly Endo'd in the Pro Peloton, because they obviously over-applied their brakes. Don't think those riders really knew what emergency braking would do on their current 'rides'...
Braking practice definitely falls into that area of 'Common Sense', which again is not so 'common' after all.
... We all know who we are...
LOL
Brake On
Yuri
EDIT: When I say 3-4 occasions, those were ALL this current Pro season! 2022 and most recently in a TDF stage. So yeah, some of them know really well how to go fast; but stop fast? that's questionable...

livedarklions

I very clearly went over the bars last year and ended up doing a belly flop on the pavement. I didn't touch my brakes at all. I somehow managed to bend the back wheel but not the front hitting some sort of obstacle in the road (I'm still not 100% sure what it was).

mschwett 

my daughter went OTB on day 3 or 4 of her first disc brake bike a few months ago. a little kid jumped out in front of her at the playground and she hit both brakes full force, instant endo.

we then went to our adjacent hill (15-20% grade) and practiced braking, starting with the rear and gradually adding the front to the point of losing traction and depending on the desired rate of deceleration. for both of us it was absolutely possible to decelerate in all conditions with the rear brake only, the front brake only, and a mix of both brakes. no idea if that agrees with the physics or not, but it’s what we both observed. front brake obviously stops you faster, but it did not seem to me that there was any controllable point where all weight was off the rear wheel. perhaps i’m just a timid braker.

mschwett 

probably a bottle of vodka someone pulled from a nearby dumpster.

livedarklions

Actually, I think it was a piece of pipe that a driver found after I landed. Several drivers got out to help me, btw. That part was very cool, especially as it turned out I wasn't seriously hurt. My sternum hurt for a few days, that wasn't fun.

koala logs

That should be avoided anyway. Even if you're trying to stop as quickly as possible in an emergency, avoid the situation where you're almost lifting the rear wheel because if you so much hit a tiny bump, you'll be flying OTB
'

mschwett 

yes, agreed. That’s my whole objection here - there should always some weight on the rear wheel, which means there is some amount of braking which will contribute to slowing the bike before the wheel locks up. the two are directly related.

koala logs

True, it's a dilemma many cyclists will have to face, you can't press the brake levers as hard as you can. Leave some weight for the rear wheel.

Simply avoid getting in situations where you might find yourself emergency braking. Slowing down more often is a good start.

LarrySellerz

You can't avoid the rear becoming unweighted when stopping as fast as possible. Is called an "emergency" stop for a reason. If you find that you can't slam your front brake as hard as you can, don't trash me for suggesting practice. Obviously its better to avoid these situations

LarrySellerz

You haven't gone over the bars from using the front brake? Not even as a kid? Its not that uncommon and is the whole reason people are afraid of the front brake.

indyfabz

Never. Front wheel once got locked up by a stick, but I never touched the brake.

livedarklions

If true, that'd be a damn good reason, wouldn't it? You just destroyed your own argument. Over the bars is directly at the obstacle that's making you brake.

Let's get this straight, I'm a whole hell of a lot more interested in the quickest way to stop MY forward momentum, not the bike's. Those are not the same thing.

livedarklions

We're slamming you because this is stupid practice. The more the people who are asserting this "front brake only" nonsense talk, the more obvious it is how poorly thought out and supported this article of faith actually is.

terrymorse 

No, never. Not even as a kid.

My only "over the bars" moment as a kid did not involve braking. It was when my front wheel suddenly stopped by hitting a fencepost at the edge of the road. I did a full flip and landed on my butt, unharmed. The front fork and frame were bent, but I was able to straighten them, because they were made of steel (and I worked after school and Saturdays in my parents' bike shop).

I suspect that most of these hard braking "over the bars" events are riders who don't adequately hold themselves back with their arms, and they tumble off the front of the bike (consider the force generated by an adult decelerating at around 0.6 g).

This is why the emergency braking method suggests using straight arms to push back against the bars.

LarrySellerz

Lions, you can avoid going over the bars by redistributing your weight. Some of you seem to be missing the "emergency" part of the stop, its not going to be pretty and risk free. Lions you think its hard to lock up your back wheel which tells me that you aren't using the front nearly as hard as you could be. The rear is just a backup and if you NEED it to help you stop and avoid going over the bars you are doing it wrong.

If you have a problem going from 0-100 slamming your brakes as hard as you can you have something you could work on if you wanted to. It's definitely possible, and the back brake doesn't really do anything in that situation except skid the rear, which TBH is honestly fine but still not ideal.