More gasoline on the fire - Electronic Shifting
#52
Di2 XT(R) derailleurs work with triples.
#53
ignoring the old-timey nostalgia for mechanical stuff...
1. comparing like to like, they don't seem to be. for both ultegra and di2, mechanical appears to be 120-150g heavier. i'm sure there are cases where it goes the other way, but it's hardly clear cut.
2. "hard to know if you've changed gear" !?! what!? i have never experienced this, gloves or not. electronic shifting isn't totally silent, and there's the button itself, and the fact of it getting harder/easier to pedal.
3. true. not sure that'll hold over time, depends if the same forces that generally make electric things cheaper than mechanical ones will apply here
4. the "problem" is that the batteries last a long time? all things require maintenance of some sort, the electronic drivetrain requires a plug-in/charge at some interval, which is likely far less than some other things like chain cleaning, air in the tires, etc. are those also huge problems?
5. i'm a lousy mechanic, and i can't/won't replace drivetrain cable or re-index/adjust a derailleur. had to take it in to do so many times on my GRX bikes. never had to on Di2. so, a bit of maintenance vs... NONE. i get that it's nice for things to be "easy" to maintain, but eliminating that maintenance (no cable to wear out) is better.
2 out of our four bikes are mechanical derailleurs. i will not buy another bike with mechanical shifting.
#54
20lb means more than 9 kg - a much heavier bike, from another league. If it has rim brakes and mechanical group set at the level of Ultegra 2x11 or Sram Force 2x11, I would expect it to weight close to 9.9 kg with disks and electronic. The same increase, but in the lower 10% because we start from a much heavier bike.
#55
Senior Member
We both have bikes defined by the industry as obsolete. It doesn't matter what the spacing is. As for the systems for different DOs, cable pull is what made them different. Electronic eliminates that. The current system should work on any spacing up to the current one. It would depend on how the shifters/derailleurs are programmed. Same spacing on the cassette cogs but different amount of cogs for the different DO spacings. The system possibly could be hacked, be that still would be expensive starting out. If electronic is truly the future, then it will magically trickle down into the lower tiers. Even into the bikes at the box stores with 7/8 speed rears. It'll take a few years, but it eventually get to where the C & V can use it.
Last edited by seypat; 02-18-23 at 02:17 PM.
#56
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We both have bikes defined by the industry as obsolete. It doesn't matter what the spacing is. As for the systems for different DOs, cable pull is what made them different. Electronic eliminates that. The current system should work on any spacing up to the current one. It would depend on how the shifters/derailleurs are programmed. Same spacing on the cassette cogs but different amount of cogs for the different DO spacings. The system possibly could be hacked, be that still would be expensive starting out. If electronic is truly the future, then it will magically trickle down into the lower tiers. Even into the bikes at the box stores with 7/8 speed rears. It'll take a few years, but it eventually get to where the C & V can use it.
#57
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Most of these can be applied to indexed shifting, and brifters. I wonder if the author has the same feelings about those.
Oh also add derailleurs to that list.
Oh also add derailleurs to that list.
#58
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IMO, As electronic shifting becomes ubiquitous on new mid and high range bikes the technology prices may moderate. The technology will filter down to lesser expensive models and prices will reflect that as well. Friction gave way to indexed. Indexed gave way to brifters and brifters will give way to electronic if there is a buck to be made. Just my opinion, I could be wrong.
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#59
The move to electronic shifters is a great business move. I would assume the margins are higher and this is the logical extension of the move from repairable components to replaceable components.
The difference between a metal wire, an electronic wire or a wireless signal is meaningless. All systems have strengths and weaknesses, the consumer can make the decision what works for them.
Companies are not looking to help you create the best cycling experience, but rather to make money. People can be convinced of anything and with enough marketing, will do exactly as they are told.
The difference between a metal wire, an electronic wire or a wireless signal is meaningless. All systems have strengths and weaknesses, the consumer can make the decision what works for them.
Companies are not looking to help you create the best cycling experience, but rather to make money. People can be convinced of anything and with enough marketing, will do exactly as they are told.
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#60
I am, as are a lot of the C & V crowd. We do whatever we can to keep those older frames going. Realize that older frames could mean something from 2-3 years ago. With nothing being backwards compatible, whatever is current becomes old/obsolete with each new system. So, whatever you're riding now will suffer the same fate in 3-5 years.
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with enough volume to spread out the development and tooling costs electronic things are generally cheaper than a capable mechanical equivalent. not sure if bike stuff reaches that scale.
it would definitely cost less to make one difference engine than one simple electronic computer. but if you had to make 10,000,000....
the same things goes for electric cars. 100 times less moving parts in the engine.
it would definitely cost less to make one difference engine than one simple electronic computer. but if you had to make 10,000,000....
the same things goes for electric cars. 100 times less moving parts in the engine.
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A bike of 6.5-7kg in 2016 with rim brakes and mechanical set weights now around 7.5-8 kg with disk brakes and electronic group set of the same tier. That's why I estimated 10-15% heavier.
20lb means more than 9 kg - a much heavier bike, from another league. If it has rim brakes and mechanical group set at the level of Ultegra 2x11 or Sram Force 2x11, I would expect it to weight close to 9.9 kg with disks and electronic. The same increase, but in the lower 10% because we start from a much heavier bike.
20lb means more than 9 kg - a much heavier bike, from another league. If it has rim brakes and mechanical group set at the level of Ultegra 2x11 or Sram Force 2x11, I would expect it to weight close to 9.9 kg with disks and electronic. The same increase, but in the lower 10% because we start from a much heavier bike.
It's the disc brakes which really mess with the purity; frameset and front wheel need to be beefier.
Actually, Di2 is good for weight distribution - it takes weight out of the levers and replaces it with a battery you can put in the bottom of the seat tube. So my bike feels lighter than it would as mechanical at the same weight.
Last edited by Kimmo; 02-18-23 at 05:32 PM.
#63
A bike of 6.5-7kg in 2016 with rim brakes and mechanical set weights now around 7.5-8 kg with disk brakes and electronic group set of the same tier. That's why I estimated 10-15% heavier.
20lb means more than 9 kg - a much heavier bike, from another league. If it has rim brakes and mechanical group set at the level of Ultegra 2x11 or Sram Force 2x11, I would expect it to weight close to 9.9 kg with disks and electronic. The same increase, but in the lower 10% because we start from a much heavier bike.
20lb means more than 9 kg - a much heavier bike, from another league. If it has rim brakes and mechanical group set at the level of Ultegra 2x11 or Sram Force 2x11, I would expect it to weight close to 9.9 kg with disks and electronic. The same increase, but in the lower 10% because we start from a much heavier bike.
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IMO, As electronic shifting becomes ubiquitous on new mid and high range bikes the technology prices may moderate. The technology will filter down to lesser expensive models and prices will reflect that as well. Friction gave way to indexed. Indexed gave way to brifters and brifters will give way to electronic if there is a buck to be made. Just my opinion, I could be wrong.
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#66
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No, I'm still probably out of luck unless I were to give up the 3x. But, there's definitely a market for reducing the cogs on the current cassettes, reprogramming the same shifters/derailleurs and selling them to fit in past spacing. All this alongside the latest and greatest. No new technology needed at all. The companies couldn't sell the matching disc brakes, but think of all those new hubs/wheels/etc to go along with the shifting. I have around 10 bikes that would be convertable if the price was right and 3X was an option. Lots of people out there like me.
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#67
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Bottom line: Cyclist Magazine doesn't pay well, and Pete Muir can't afford electronic shifting. He's a bitter man.
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#68
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I have had many cars with manual transmissions, and a number with PDK’s. It simply no contest; by any objective measure the “automatic” is better.
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#69
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As a follow-up, why not a new bike/frame? Well, I'm 5'8" and 200lb ish depending on the day. Built like Chris Hoy, not Chris Froome. 26-27" ish quads. I've sat on some of the new frames. They're getting too thick/wide, particularly where the TT meets the head tube. Not enough room in that imaginary rectangular cube between the TT junctions at each end. Having some clearance/contact issues. That's life, I'll deal with it.
Last edited by seypat; 02-18-23 at 06:40 PM.
#70
Senior Member
problem is you’d lose that argument. Modern dual clutch “automatic” transmission is vastly superior to a manual transmission by any objective measure. It’s more fuel efficient; shifts faster than is humanly possible for a manual; improves performance; increases longevity, and allows driver assists like auto hold, and adaptive cruise control.
The car analogy you're looking for is power door locks, windows and seats. Manually operated systems for these accomplish the exact same end result, and are more simple, cheaper and do the same thing without all the little motors and sensors. Most people prefer the electronic versions, but I guarantee somewhere out there on a car forum right now you'll find a bunch of vintage car owners railing about how modern cars suck because of all the added weight, expense and complexity of unnecessary electronic gimmicks.
Electronic shifting on bikes is like that. When is the last time you saw a new car with manual locks or windows?
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Just like modern refrig, all the goofy things the manufacturers put in them. Look at the schematic of a refrig without ice and water through the door versus the ones with indoor this and that, wifi, TV screens, not to mention the french door types. Stupid expensive, overly complex, and a pain to repair. However, while I have a plain jane refrig, I like my electronic shifting.
#72
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Best experience ,depends of what you call best experience in terms over the long run reliability and servicability,I am not talking about professional roadbike racers. What if the battery is dead and that you are stuck ina steep hill or far away from home? Well you are on your own. I also read that you could program di2 with a computer for better shifting, but definitely not for me.
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#73
Best experience ,depends of what you call best experience in terms over the long run reliability and servicability,I am not talking about professional roadbike racers. What if the battery is dead and that you are stuck ina steep hill or far away from home? Well you are on your own. I also read that you could program di2 with a computer for better shifting, but definitely not for me.
Having had electronic shifting for a year now, I'm not wishing to go back to mechanical. I was never in love with the feel of mechanical brifters and this is a much better solution IMO. Maybe it's not the best solution for someone touring Africa or South America unaided, but it works fine for daily rides near civilisation.
#74
Senior Member
A bike of 6.5-7kg in 2016 with rim brakes and mechanical set weights now around 7.5-8 kg with disk brakes and electronic group set of the same tier. That's why I estimated 10-15% heavier.
20lb means more than 9 kg - a much heavier bike, from another league. If it has rim brakes and mechanical group set at the level of Ultegra 2x11 or Sram Force 2x11, I would expect it to weight close to 9.9 kg with disks and electronic. The same increase, but in the lower 10% because we start from a much heavier bike.
20lb means more than 9 kg - a much heavier bike, from another league. If it has rim brakes and mechanical group set at the level of Ultegra 2x11 or Sram Force 2x11, I would expect it to weight close to 9.9 kg with disks and electronic. The same increase, but in the lower 10% because we start from a much heavier bike.
The weight differential from SRAM Red rim 11 speed to SRAM Red AXS (12 speed) hydraulic disc is exactly 272 grams. Overall, rims are lighter but several more spokes and a slightly heavier fork. Both rim and disc braked bikes can be built to the UCI limit. It has never been easy to get to the 6,5kg figure you state, this is weightweenie territory. I have a 58 cm Cervelo with 12 speed AXS rim and a 61 cm Felt AR with 12 Speed AXS HRD, and the weight difference is about 250 grams or 0.52834 pounds.
My disc brake bike rims are much lighter.
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#75
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I always carry a spare SRAM battery and in perhaps 40,000 or so miles, I have never needed to use it.
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