Schwinn Paramount vs Trek Domane
#26
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May take less time than to read Atlas Shrugged, though.
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#28
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Anyone who would consider the Schwinn classy in 57 years will be long dead. Just the same if you show up for your local club ride in a Penny Farthing today. The good thing is the Schwinn is just worth a fraction of the current bike cost so why no just get both. Ride the current bike and enjoy the experience and one to hang on your wall and look at. Win/Win.
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???? I rented a Domane a few years back for a day. Put on my saddle and a set of my wheels/tires and then road it on my base 20 mile route of rough chipseal road. It fell quite short of comfort and speed in comparison to many of my old steel rides. This surprised me for sure as I expected more.
In fact, I pretty much moved away from modern C.F. after spending a 6 week period where I did the same century ride on my Trek 5.9 and Scott CR1 Pro and then four of steel bikes. Tracked time, avg speed, and even how I felt at the end of the rides. Yeah, that's right, the performance and comfort went to the old steel bikes not the C.F. ones. So my reality of what works best under me is all that matters.
I won't even go into what bikes put up the fastest times when I did my silly 19 mph challenge a couple of years ago. The clearly fastest (proven over many rides since then) was my heaviest, mostly steel, and quite the odd duck. Oh and around 30 years old. It was also the most comfortable. Of course, I'm just an averaging old dog riding bikes.
In fact, I pretty much moved away from modern C.F. after spending a 6 week period where I did the same century ride on my Trek 5.9 and Scott CR1 Pro and then four of steel bikes. Tracked time, avg speed, and even how I felt at the end of the rides. Yeah, that's right, the performance and comfort went to the old steel bikes not the C.F. ones. So my reality of what works best under me is all that matters.
I won't even go into what bikes put up the fastest times when I did my silly 19 mph challenge a couple of years ago. The clearly fastest (proven over many rides since then) was my heaviest, mostly steel, and quite the odd duck. Oh and around 30 years old. It was also the most comfortable. Of course, I'm just an averaging old dog riding bikes.
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Exactly this, the Paramount was well up to the task in its day as racing was far more brutal, crappy roads, minimal support, most only had one bike, maybe a team spare not in your size and you might be able to fix it yourself on the road with minimal help.
Now days you better hope your team car is nearby with your spare or you're toast, even then it doesn't work out all the time.
Now days you better hope your team car is nearby with your spare or you're toast, even then it doesn't work out all the time.
Last edited by georges1; 04-10-23 at 02:00 AM.
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Ya'll, they (AS) came here to get attention, and attention is what they got. An apples to oranges comparison is just what this flavor of troll is looking for. A chance to rile up some well-meaning folks by forcing some dichotomy or some search for the "best," which AS must be the master of. Everyone else just be fools.
No question in my mind which of the two bikes I'd prefer to give a go, of course.
No question in my mind which of the two bikes I'd prefer to give a go, of course.
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#32
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Sorry I didn’t check that this was the C&V sub forum where reality is suspended. I have nothing against vintage bikes and have a couple myself. Just find it ridiculous how modern bikes which obviously have superior performance characteristics are derided and criticized it makes no sense.
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#33
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Just as silly as reducing the latest Trek to nothing but plastic and batteries.
Yes an 1966 Schwinn is an interesting time capsule. But who in their right mind would choose to ride it over a top end modern bike for a serious ride or multi day event. It always comes back to this, these old bikes are not being destroyed or thrown out but rather parked and not ridden and that is for a reason. Much like the examples you gave, historically interesting but not relevant to modern usage.
Yes an 1966 Schwinn is an interesting time capsule. But who in their right mind would choose to ride it over a top end modern bike for a serious ride or multi day event. It always comes back to this, these old bikes are not being destroyed or thrown out but rather parked and not ridden and that is for a reason. Much like the examples you gave, historically interesting but not relevant to modern usage.
Last edited by georges1; 04-10-23 at 02:06 AM.
#34
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Regarding the Domane vs Paramount comparison, hydraulic disc brake componentry tends to add about 1kg / 2.2 lbs over a comparative rim brake setup. Lower end carbon layups weigh more, as do less-than-Dura-Ace components. [MENTION=7408]imabeliever1[/MENTION] , you'll have to let us know what the spec on that Madone was. A top-spec Dura-Ace-equipped Madone, with its considerable tire clearance (beefier/lengthier frame required = more weight), is 16.0 lbs according to Trek, so they can be made light (for a LOT of money). The one you weighed must have been a lower-spec 105 bike (still 20.0 lbs according to Trek, for a 56cm). Just sleuthing here. I know it's a bit apples to oranges squared but this is what we're working with. In general, mid-grade hydraulic disc brake performance bikes are surprisingly uninspiring in the weight department with regard to their cost and in comparison to top-end rim brake bikes both current and not too old (~10 years) that often cost the same or considerably less and are very light.
Obviously the intended use of a bike drives one to buy and ride one over the other, and I think we all know this. The Domane is an extremely capable and versatile bike, and will perform well on an open road, in the rain, or a super busy/sketchy city. Easily. That Paramount will love the open road, be varying degrees of satisfactory in the rain, and a bit inconvenienced in a cut-and-thrust modern city environment. [The world speeds up everywhere and cares not for yesterday's tech, vehicle speed, or sensibilities, unfortunately) I disliked running friction shift and indifferent single pivot brakes in downtown Seattle due to traffic and topography. Any modern brifter bike was a ton easier and conversely, safer as it gave me more margin between me and an unplanned trip over my bars thanks to a car etc. I'm out of the city now, so assuming a '66 Paramount fits me well, that'd be a sweet ride. I'm more of a Madone/Emonda (rim brake!) guy for the modern stuff, so I wouldn't be saying no to them either.
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#35
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Agreed but I don't think there should be any doubt where our true allegiance lies, nor should we have to be brow beaten for it in our own forum.
You know as well as I do that we are a very tolerant lot but calling BS on it as is happening here and is not the first time is not ok IMO so....
You know as well as I do that we are a very tolerant lot but calling BS on it as is happening here and is not the first time is not ok IMO so....
I have an aluminum Domane and there are often times that I wish I would have spent the extra cash to get a lighter CF bike. And if I had more money than brains, I would probably be shopping for a new bike every few years and I'd want the bells and whistles that come with it. But right now my good sense to money balance is tilted towards throwing money at a '54 Hercules that will be worth a fraction of what I've already spent on it. Even though every nut bolt and screw I remove from it reminds me what a foolish endeavor it is, I know my grandson will probably be the one to hold on to it for possibly another 68 years so it is worth it in a way.
Are my bike boom bikes and Hercules as cool as a good many of the C&V bikes I enjoy looking at here and would love to have myself? No. But they are IMHO quite lovely to look at and ride and for the most part, C&V members on BF are understanding as to why I enjoy them.
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#36
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I've owned many classic top-of-the-line steel bikes since the mid-1960s. Helyett 531 track bike, Tokyo Olympics Cino Cinelli-designed Raleigh Professional, Atala Record Professional, Bianchi Specialissima, etc.
In my case, though, unlike all but a very few here, I was riding those bikes when they were new or nearly new. I loved them all.
I haven't ridden any of the few of those steel bikes that I still own in many years, though. The aluminum bikes I ride now aren't night-and-day better than those steel bikes were. I just like the way they feel to ride a bit better.
My steel bikes were state of the art back then. My aluminum bikes are (to me) state of the art now. Nothing to get riled up over.
Threads like this are puzzling. The C&V section has become far more vicious than it was only 10 years ago (let alone compared to how it was when I started reading it in the first years after Joe G started BikeForums). Worse than the Road subforum, self-congratulatory claims here to the contrary. Why is that? What happened? They're all just bikes.
In my case, though, unlike all but a very few here, I was riding those bikes when they were new or nearly new. I loved them all.
I haven't ridden any of the few of those steel bikes that I still own in many years, though. The aluminum bikes I ride now aren't night-and-day better than those steel bikes were. I just like the way they feel to ride a bit better.
My steel bikes were state of the art back then. My aluminum bikes are (to me) state of the art now. Nothing to get riled up over.
Threads like this are puzzling. The C&V section has become far more vicious than it was only 10 years ago (let alone compared to how it was when I started reading it in the first years after Joe G started BikeForums). Worse than the Road subforum, self-congratulatory claims here to the contrary. Why is that? What happened? They're all just bikes.
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#38
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I've owned many classic top-of-the-line steel bikes since the mid-1960s. Helyett 531 track bike, Tokyo Olympics Cino Cinelli-designed Raleigh Professional, Atala Record Professional, Bianchi Specialissima, etc.
In my case, though, unlike all but a very few here, I was riding those bikes when they were new or nearly new. I loved them all.
I haven't ridden any of the few of those steel bikes that I still own in many years, though. The aluminum bikes I ride now aren't night-and-day better than those steel bikes were. I just like the way they feel to ride a bit better.
My steel bikes were state of the art back then. My aluminum bikes are (to me) state of the art now. Nothing to get riled up over.
Threads like this are puzzling. The C&V section has become far more vicious than it was only 10 years ago (let alone compared to how it was when I started reading it in the first years after Joe G started BikeForums). Worse than the Road subforum, self-congratulatory claims here to the contrary. Why is that? What happened? They're all just bikes.
In my case, though, unlike all but a very few here, I was riding those bikes when they were new or nearly new. I loved them all.
I haven't ridden any of the few of those steel bikes that I still own in many years, though. The aluminum bikes I ride now aren't night-and-day better than those steel bikes were. I just like the way they feel to ride a bit better.
My steel bikes were state of the art back then. My aluminum bikes are (to me) state of the art now. Nothing to get riled up over.
Threads like this are puzzling. The C&V section has become far more vicious than it was only 10 years ago (let alone compared to how it was when I started reading it in the first years after Joe G started BikeForums). Worse than the Road subforum, self-congratulatory claims here to the contrary. Why is that? What happened? They're all just bikes.
-welding or brazing a high end steel/aluminium/titanium frame requires material knowledge and skills
-steel like titanium have proven strong durability over decades
-steel like titanium proved to be more comfortable than carbon
-repairability is clear the steel, aluminium and titanium frame can always be repaired,the carbon frame very hardly.
If you want to add the electronic shifting argument, then the counter argument is what do you do when your battery is low or dead and that you can't change of gear .A cable shifting never breaks down.
The disc brake argument is another one very easy to refute, take a nice pair of shimano dura ace 7800/7900/9000/9100 or ultegra 6600/6700/6800/8000 calipers that can work better than disc brakes when perfectly adjusted, the disc brakes can present risk of injury.
Also as my old friend Chuck Maddox used to say "Old tech that works is good tech".Technology is nice when it is absolutely and flawlessly reliable over the long run,when it is finicky or capricious over the short term,it is not that great but just a waste of money.
Last edited by georges1; 04-10-23 at 07:45 AM.
#39
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The Rolex’s are significant to me for reasons other than keeping time and will hopefully remain in my family for generations. I also inherited a 1960’s Omega Seamaster from my father which will also be handed down. My Garmin will be given away like used lawn furniture in a few years.
You're gonna give your Garmin away because in 10 years it won't be functioning (and you know this).
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I've owned many classic top-of-the-line steel bikes since the mid-1960s. Helyett 531 track bike, Tokyo Olympics Cino Cinelli-designed Raleigh Professional, Atala Record Professional, Bianchi Specialissima, etc.
In my case, though, unlike all but a very few here, I was riding those bikes when they were new or nearly new. I loved them all.
I haven't ridden any of the few of those steel bikes that I still own in many years, though. The aluminum bikes I ride now aren't night-and-day better than those steel bikes were. I just like the way they feel to ride a bit better.
My steel bikes were state of the art back then. My aluminum bikes are (to me) state of the art now. Nothing to get riled up over.
Threads like this are puzzling. The C&V section has become far more vicious than it was only 10 years ago (let alone compared to how it was when I started reading it in the first years after Joe G started BikeForums). Worse than the Road subforum, self-congratulatory claims here to the contrary. Why is that? What happened? They're all just bikes.
In my case, though, unlike all but a very few here, I was riding those bikes when they were new or nearly new. I loved them all.
I haven't ridden any of the few of those steel bikes that I still own in many years, though. The aluminum bikes I ride now aren't night-and-day better than those steel bikes were. I just like the way they feel to ride a bit better.
My steel bikes were state of the art back then. My aluminum bikes are (to me) state of the art now. Nothing to get riled up over.
Threads like this are puzzling. The C&V section has become far more vicious than it was only 10 years ago (let alone compared to how it was when I started reading it in the first years after Joe G started BikeForums). Worse than the Road subforum, self-congratulatory claims here to the contrary. Why is that? What happened? They're all just bikes.
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#42
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I'd take that bet. Lightweight vintage steel frames are absolutely more fragile than well built modern CF. Frame failures were very common in the days of lightweight steel. An impact that would tie a light vintage steel frame in a knot would likely not phase a good modern CF bike. Steel alloys available from the 90s onward make bikes stronger than their vintage ancestors, but old ones are comparatively feeble.
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#43
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I'd take that bet. Lightweight vintage steel frames are absolutely more fragile than well built modern CF. Frame failures were very common in the days of lightweight steel. An impact that would tie a light vintage steel frame in a knot would likely not phase a good modern CF bike. Steel alloys available from the 90s onward make bikes stronger than their vintage ancestors, but old ones are comparatively feeble.
#44
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#45
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I'd take that bet. Lightweight vintage steel frames are absolutely more fragile than well built modern CF. Frame failures were very common in the days of lightweight steel. An impact that would tie a light vintage steel frame in a knot would likely not phase a good modern CF bike. Steel alloys available from the 90s onward make bikes stronger than their vintage ancestors, but old ones are comparatively feeble.
I know, I know, someone can post the occasional photo of a Kestrel 4000...But there aren't too many. Wonder why?
And in 57 years, I wonder how well that Di2 will be functioning? I'm guessing not. At all.
#46
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New carbon bikes are fine for what they were designed for. But I don’t have a big smile on my face when I’m riding it. My Paramount does though, I’ll take that over any new bike.
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#47
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The DI2 software upgrade won't be available by this time and good luck if you are stuck with a low battery or have not upgraded os on the dura ace shifters, no posibility to shift.The cable will always work.Carbon probably doesn't age that well unlike steel.
#48
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#49
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Not really. Some of the comments above are fairly close to being equivalent to walking into a C&W bar and shouting out during a lull in the music, "Country music SUCKS - blues/jazz/hard rock/rap (pick any of these) is WAY better!"
If someone does that, it shouldn't be a surprise when some regulars at the bar take offense and yell back.
Anyone can ride whatever they like; I've got no problem with that. I'll do the same.
Just don't tell me what I'm riding is junk - and that your bike is way better - if our paths cross while riding. I'll extend the same courtesy.
If someone does that, it shouldn't be a surprise when some regulars at the bar take offense and yell back.
Anyone can ride whatever they like; I've got no problem with that. I'll do the same.
Just don't tell me what I'm riding is junk - and that your bike is way better - if our paths cross while riding. I'll extend the same courtesy.
Last edited by Hondo6; 04-10-23 at 08:57 AM.
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