2_i 

It takes 5h to ski down over combined glaciers of Vallee Blanche and Mer de Glace. Can't recall any baclavas there.

Different circulation for Inuits is of course true, but they represent a minute percentage of overall population. There has been a relatively extensive program on withstanding cold on one of the popular science channels. (I hope to run into it again.) The body strategizes regarding heat delivery to various parts of the body. One experiment they were showing was with someone having a very strong insulation over most body but exposed hands. He could keep these hands exposed in some astoundingly low temperatures for extended time without discomfort, as the body had no problem maintaining the hands' temperature. My suspicion regarding some riders is that they insist on cycling clothes at inappropriate temperatures, lose a lot of heat around the torso and then end up with problems around extremities.

bijan

Balaclavas are not magical or any different in their properties from other clothes Were those people wearing: hats? scarves? neck warmers? goggles? if yes then they were just as covered (if not more so). Basically did anyone have their mouth and/or nose covered?


Were they doing the above experiment with cycling? Again you are creating a 10-20 mph extra wind that is constant as long as you are moving. This sucks away any heat from exposed skin. Your body will use a strategy of cutting off blood-flow to your hands to stop the heat loss, and insulation won't help because at some point there just isn't enough heat being generated by your body to keep exposed hands warm. Try cycling 10 minutes at -20 without gloves

If there is no discomfort past 10 minutes it is probably not because the body is maintaining the proper temperature in the hands but that he's lost sensation in his hands...

2_i 

In my memory, actually many had nothing other than a raised collar. There could be a scarf under the collar, but I could not tell. Some had thin hats. This was still before helmets became common in downhill skiing.

Sure backlava is nothing but a piece of clothing but it provides an escalated protection compared to combination of neck gaiter and thin hat. In my experience a cyclist is in a better situation as far heat balance is concerned than a pedestrian, because he produces heat a higher rate. I consistently wear lighter clothes for cycling than for walking. Yet it is relatively uncommon for pedestrians to come out in backlavas. Yes, there are circumstances that can call for a backlava as in the case of a fisher or hunter that might not move much or a construction worker. Also in the case of a motor biker because of the speed. As far as cyclists are concerned, I do not see any of them moving at 20mph in the midst of winter.



Body has no problem maintaining temperature of exposed face even with extra wind. You can create conditions where this becomes the case also for an extremity.

Otherwise, they were showing numerous insightful experiments, including demonstrating effects of moving air and differences between an Inuit and non-Inuit in reacting to cold. It was amazing to see temperature maps illustrating how differently the bodies operated. Also they had temperature maps showing how indeed the heat delivery to extremities was reduced as the body was staging its defenses. The primary protection was of torso and head.

electrik

Hands are indeed harder to keep warm than your head(much further from the core). Keeping a warm core will help to keep the floodgates open and you're right 2_i a lot of cyclists do over-look some fundamental issues, proper layers being the largest. There is this emphasis on one-suit systems. I think one manufacturer has a specialized item for every 5 degrees of temperature change.

Anyways, i'm not too concerned personally with frost-bitten face more with the cumulative negative effects of moderate exposure and frost-nip/chilblains.

bijan

Must have been warm. I remember downhill skiing at night on cold days and I don't remember anyone not having a hat. Sure there are sunny days where it's just about freezing where you don't need a hat...

Many balaclavas are very light. The point is to cover up your skin. When I wore one, I would wear a hat and neck warmer too.

As for cyclist vs pedestrian, it's been a while since I've walked any real distance in winter. But from the past I don't remember ever being ridiculously cold while walking, thanks to being able to put my hands in my pockets. The worst I ever did was a little over 30 minutes at -30 something, with just a hat+winter jacket. But I've had my hands be in real pain after 10 minutes on the bike at that temperature with gloves (albeit crappy ones). I also walked for 8 hours in typical February weather (after dark) here once wearing winter jacket + hat (with jeans and a shirt), and again I'd feel colder riding a bike for 2 hours dressed like that.

Anyways the body generates like 100 watts of heat doing nothing. It might generate 3 or 4 times that cycling (not sure but that seems about right), but then you lose heat more quickly too (especially if you have exposed or poorly insulated skin).

2_i 

For many years I have hardly ever worn a hat when skiing. Sure it might have been tough below -20C with wind blowing and I could have regretted not taking one along. As I have stated before in the context of discussing the perception of cold, over my lifetime I have shifted from somewhere near the average to an outlier. During the last few years, though, I started wearing a helmet to limit the possibility of injury.


Sounds outright scary.

In my experience, when walking for extended times below -12C or so, you definitely need insulated pants or winter underwear, as well as insulated shoes or an extra pair of socks. I have never cycled down to -30C in anything but dress pants, regular socks and essentially dress shoes. In winter I take the shoes that cover ankles to prevent snow or slush getting in when walking.

How your hands will feel, when away from the warmth of the torso, really depends a lot on what you do about the torso itself. If the body needs to be concerned about maintaining the temperature of the torso, it will be giving up on the hands and you will be more likely uncomfortable there.


Your numbers are ballpark right. During stationary periods of any activity, though, you always lose the same amount of heat as you generate. If you did not, your temperature would rise or drop indefinitely. In fact, your body generates heat at a much higher rate per kilogram than the Sun. However, the Sun has trouble getting rid of the heat because of a low surface to volume ratio, so its temperature gets so high. In any case, to get rid of the excess heat, the body needs to raise the temperature all over the surface and to increase sweat. The principle of heat management, on your part, is to allow heat to get away at a sufficient pace that no extra sweat is needed.

GriddleCakes

I've spent a lot of time at ski resorts, California, Oregon, and Alaska, and it seems that where ever I ski there is always one old guy, always bald, skiing without a hat all the way down to 0F. His pate is always beet red, and he generally rips, especially in the bumps. I've just assumed that these guys no longer have any working nerves in their scalps. Anyway, there're always going to be people with tougher cold tolerances than you. I also spent a couple of years after high school working in the oil fields up in the arctic, where there is a definite machisimo around being able to tolerate the cold. The Natives were the worst/best, they would never let on that they were cold.

I don't know how old 2_i is or what part of Michigan he's from, but I'm a 32 year old, third generation Alaskan from the Mat-Su valley, and both my parents and my grandparents wear hats when it gets cold. I mean, not always, like when it's only 20F and your just going from the house to the car, then from the car to where ever. But if any of us were going to be outside for a considerable amount of time, or when the temp started to dip below 15F, then out came the hats. I mean, there's tough, and then there's stupid. I know some tough Alaskans, and they all still have both of their ear lobes. And I know a couple of people who don't.

That said, I don't cover my neck until around 0F. Ears and head, yes, neck and face, no. The beard helps, and at around -20F I'll pull the neckwarmer up and over the jawline, plus I'll don ski goggles. At -30F (shudder) I'll tuck the neckwarmer into the bottom of the goggles, and try really hard to breath downwards and not fog things up. But I see cyclists wearing full neoprene face masks and down coats at 20F, so really it's all a matter of personal preference.

2_i 

Maybe the simpler explanation is that he is a relict from times when it was less common to wear hats. In my memory, when your head has really chilled you have a headache. I doubt the guy could ski down if his brain were dead and were not vulnerable in this manner. I he can continue without a hat means things are fine.

Obviously you are more susceptible to temperature when you are old as your body is less capable including coping with temperature extremes, whether low or high.


On the other hand I start with neck protection and leave the upper head for later. Obviously the lower the temperature generally less of exposed area you can afford.

electrik

This is basically the issue here. Psychology of pride, who is last to put their balaclava on is the greatest...

P.S. The guy with the most brains puts his on first and gets on with it, always easier to get cooler than it is to warm up.

2_i 

And the person who eats more medical pills than regular food is the sensible one. Amen!

electrik

Don't agree.

2_i 

First sighting of a masked rider - just eyes protrude. Reading of the temperature by my handlebars: -3C.

kayakplayer

Griddlecakes brings up an interesting consideration. In the cultures of Native people, certain working groups, and other social groups, there may be more than peer pressure as a source of tolerance or intolerance for things like the cold. Reading stories by Tom Brown Jr. since I was in high school, I believe that there are psychological skills passed along if you have contact with the right people. Tom describes a test given to him and his friend by their teacher, an elder Apache and the grandfather to the other boy. Stalking Wolf was raised as a scout and shaman before his tribe was placed on reservation. Stalking Wolf told the two 10 year old boys to remove all of their clothing except undershorts, socks, and tennis shoes. He collected their belongings and left them to find their way home in the middle of a howling winter storm much like the one we have in Wisconsin this evening. After growing cold initially, they traveled for miles on trails they were familiar with, and broke into a sweat long before they made it home that evening. The key for them was to remember the lesson of the Chickadee, the only creature commonly seen out playing during a winter storm. In a later test when they were 13, Stalking Wolf had them remove their clothes and wade into a stream from snow covered banks. They weren't allowed to leave the water until they broke a sweat. I myself haven't gone to those lengths, but by force of will, I've allowed the cold wind to "flow through me." Without blocking it's heat stealing energy, I found that I could relax the tension in my shoulder and neck muscles that come with shivering, and felt myself grow warm to the point of comfort in cold winds and with minimal clothing. I've often wondered if it is much different from walking barefoot on hot coals and many other acts that require a certain state of mind. I have found that when I share the idea with others, that it takes faith in the idea before it can work for the other person. All I had to do is look at the clothing that native people wore in traditional dress during the Winter in Northern climes, and I have to believe that there must be something besides shear toughness to make living in these areas tolerable Winter after Winter.

2_i 

From my childhood I remember men carrying out chores outside of a farm in just an unbuttoned shirt on top, showing a bare torso, at temperatures that were well below freezing. Certainly this was not meant for impressing a kid looking on. I cannot remember gloves ever being used during work.

Otherwise, my father told me that in his youth he encountered people in the countryside who were so poor that they could not afford shoes and used to walk barefoot throughout winter. This was in a climate zone where temperatures of -8C or less were common. Oetzi, by contrast, was well off.

bijan

I don't know about the rest of your post as I never had a reason to go out in winter without clothes. But when running across snow covered fields when younger I removed my boots, because they would get stuck in the snow, and I found that I could go barefoot (well only wearing my cotton socks) and it was no problem at all. I kept it up for a while and the skin on the soles of my feet became very thick, and this didn't take long at all. I must have done 3-4 km once and didn't feel any colder than I would have with the boots on.

electrik

Wow, this discussion got really goofy.

There is no spirit new-agey magic or tough guy stuff, it is simply a matter of time and caloric energy before the cold overwhelms you. Sure you can go ahead and thing you're tough, pretend to be warm, but your physiology won't let you live that lie for too long.

Just like people who walk on coals too bijan, snow is a very good insulator but it is a poor conductor. It's not magic. Stand still and that snow will melt from your foot's heat, then you'll be sorry.

GriddleCakes

A few years ago, walking through Anchorage with a buddy and his Australian girlfriend in around 0F, the girlfriend noticed that neither my buddy nor myself were hopping, "brrr"-ing, or in any way griping or acknowledging the cold. When she asked why we weren't cold, my buddy, who'd grown up in Wasilla like me, said that we were, but we just accepted it. You stop fighting it, let it flow through you, and let your body deal with it.

But this is just conscious pain tolerance, mentally calming yourself and accepting pain and discomfort to better help you ignore it. It's a useful skill, but it won't increase your body's tolerance to cold. I learned to do this as a kid when walking to bus stop, which took about 20 minutes, and for the remainder of time until the bus arrived. Walking wasn't so bad, because you kept moving, but standing in -20F was definitely a good exercise in will strengthening.


Traditional Native dress around these parts tended to involve a lot of fur, which is pretty damned warm. Further north they wore marine mammal skins and furs, which is as warm as anything you will find on the market today. Eskimos didn't evolve to withstand extreme cold, they wore the skin of animals that had.

That guy you see without a hat or balaclava in the winter might not be pretending that he's warm, he might actually be comfortable. Some physiologies are less susceptible to cold than others, and some of us have acclimated to lower temps than what you regularly experience. Subcutaneous fat can act as an insulator (back in '04 or '05 a Cook Inlet setnetter was forced to abandon his boat and swim some twenty minutes in below freezing ocean water and suffered no ill effects, on account of his build being akin to, in his words, a "sea mammal", i.e.- fat over muscle).

There have been a number of studies on cold tolerance in humans, and they all tend to find a range of tolerances from person to person. One study from back in the '60s, by a Univ. Alaska, Fairbanks, professor, was undertaken after the professor (one Laurence Irving) marveled at two exchange students who walked about campus shoeless all winter long (they went unshod for religious reasons). From the study:

According to NOAA, frostbite is possible at 0F. I was out cycling for over an hour earlier this month at -10F, riding along at up to 15 mph with nothing over my face (I hate covering my mouth when I'm breathing hard), with no ill effect. I never cover my face until I personally deem it to be dangerous to have exposed skin (I did get frostbite once, when I was 19 and working in the Arctic, so I know what dangerously cold feels like). I have for years intentionally pushed my tolerance to cold as far as I safely can, to better acclimate myself to cold weather, so that I can enjoy being out all day in it, and so that I won't be distracted by pain and discomfort when I'm stuck out in it and need to focus on more important matters.

When I'm pushing my limits, I'm not "pretend[ing] to be warm", I'm intentionally discomforting myself; and if you ask me if I'm cold, I'll answer you truthfully. I'm just not cold enough to put on a balaclava, or parka, or whatever. I don't think of it as a tough guy thing either. As a backcountry skier, I'll spend all day outside in the cold, with no lodge to duck into; acclimatizing myself to the cold means that I'll be comfortable all day long out there. It means that when I ride at the resort, I don't have to duck into the lodge to warm up, and can bag more powder runs instead. And it means that when the crap hits the fan and I'm stuck in bad weather for longer than I want, or am less prepared than I need to be, at least I'm mentally prepared for the hardship and won't be distracted by unavoidable pain.

electrik

Hahahaha, sea mammal! Despite some adaptations we are not polar bears, perhaps in his case walruses.

Ok, so it is true, sure some people are a little more cold "tolerant", i think i also mentioned it, but that shouldn't be confused with the basic reality. What i'm trying to explain is that cold tolerance allows you to feel warm, have warmer hands say, but you're still losing body heat(quicker if your hands are warm) and that is the basic nature of the situation. This is a pretending warmth to me because it is not sustainable. Your body core is going to great costs to keep them warm. Those hands, neck, scalp are like giant radiators. No matter how accustomed to the cold people are, i have not heard of anybody breaking the second law of thermodynamics. The clock is ticking when you're not properly dressed and exposed. Running around and skiing generates a lot of heat, one could run naked across the arctic for a while. In fact I know of one physiology prof who spent the night naked running through the bush one winter to prove it's possible. Anyway, these things aren't like cycling though. I wear considerably less when xc skiing(more than the professor) when compared to road cycling. Reasons are the forest is typically warmer, less windy, my speeds are lower and my limbs and trunk are all moving to generate extra heat. The list goes on, the situations are different and perhaps we're trying to compare apples to oranges.

I've never had to let the cold flow through me to feel comfortable, your language makes it sound like maybe you watched too much star wars!

Interestingly enough obese "walruses" are not ideal for regulating body heat, a 20 min swim is probably their best scenario, but because of the er, mass and accompanying vascular disorders, it is hard for them to regulate temperatures when sitting idle.

One other thing about frostnip/bite, those values reflect a certain percent of the popular who are vunerable, lower 10% i think. Vulnerability depends on how warm your body's vascular system can keep the skin, if you're older or in poor health you should follow the tables exactly.

raydog

Wow, great extended convertsation. I'm just thankful that, we, in the 21st century have technology on our side if we want it. Wittness Sir Hillary in the 1950's carrying tons of wood and canvas into high country.....compared to the miracle wicking/insulating fabrics and magnesium/titanium equipment of today. When I ride in sub-freezing temps, I can adjust my clothing to minimize sweatchill, withstand intense wind, ward off frostbite and extend comfort. If our survival skills include knowing our equipment, our safety, training and pleasure as Winter athletes has never been better!
Of course our exposure capabilities vary due to cultural, ethnic, geographical and physiological differences, knowing our bodies and equipment allows us to push the envelope, that's part of the fun! If machismo drives one to do this stuff, they should take up indoor sports.

2_i 

Experiments on differences in physiology of Inuit and Caucasians from Toronto, Ontario:
Can J of Physiology and Pharmacology

Darwin quoted reporting on people living without clothes in areas where temperatures drop down to 12F:
J Occupational and Environmental Medicine

Discussion of acclimatization:
Health Topics

electrik

Ok, so since you didn't want to connect the papers to what we're talking about i'll just guess.

Link #1: Inuit feet warmed up faster when dipped in cold water. Does that mean they're resistant to the second law of thermodynamics? No. It simply means their adaptation to cold is different since their body really tries to keep fingers warm at expensive to the body's core. Would the Inuit's core temperature drop faster if their foot was left in the water? Probably. This survival strategy has benefits of course, having to wait 7.5 minutes or in excess of 10 minutes for warm feet could trigger frost-bite. This is the false warmth i was speaking about or what some call cold tolerance, where the body has to put it's efforts into keeping some extremity warm at the cost of it's over-all "heat" survival.

Link #2: They were poorly clad, not naked. I can't read the rest, there is only one page? It is interesting to read the author notes that even with proper insulation the face is very hard to protect from frostbite. People who scoffed at balaclavas should take note of that, typically the cheeks are the coldest part of the body. Obviously these people were cold-tolerant, how does one sleep with no shelter at -11c what was their condition? I am skeptical of the reporting.

Link #3: Acclimatization, yes. Increased metabolic rate, probably. Maybe we should leave our windows open at night in the winter! They are right it's far easier to deal with heat and cold when the minima and maxima are near the mode.

Anyways, link dumping is generally rude... write what you're trying to say and then offer the citation as support.

GriddleCakes

Um, the clock is ticking, period. The very act of respiration costs energy, and life itself is not sustainable. In warmer temps, the body loses water faster, so you get thirsty and drink. In colder temps, the body expends energy faster, so you get hungry and eat. If you lie down and go to sleep in the cold, you're going to wake up hungry and weak, if at all. If you go for a walk or bike ride while underdressed, you're going to go back for seconds at dinner. That's it. And I fail to see how dressing up to avoid extra energy expenditure is more intelligent than not. I can afford to buy more food, and an increased energy budget is a reasonable trade off for the ability to enjoy being out of doors in all weather.

You can call it machismo, and you can mock it as dumb, out-dated, or ridiculous. Perhaps you think that the avoidance of any and all discomfort is the smartest thing a person can do. I personally believe that there is value in regularly stepping outside of one's comfort zones, especially here in the western world where it is so easy to attain comfort. Suffering provides perspective, and I think that you become better equipped to deal with life's adversities once you learn how to HTFU.

I using the same phrase as the poster that I was responding to. It might seem like strange way to phrase it, but I knew exactly what he meant. It's an odd and unique feeling, a stoic acceptance that you're cold and there's no use fighting it or even thinking about it. It feels like you give in to the cold; you relax and just let yourself be cold. It something that can only be done when walking or standing, where your body isn't generating a lot of heat.

You misunderstood, the fisherman's build being akin to that of a marine mammal means that he had a lot of muscle, and around that a layer of fat. It's been established that fat is an insulator, and that lean guys like me shiver more quickly and more often than people with some fat on them. Where the fisherman survived (more than the swim, I believe that he then had to walk half an hour to find a phone to call for rescue for the rest of his crew, who were clinging to a buoy float at the site [one of his crewmen perished from hypothermia before rescue arrived, two others lived]), I might have succumbed for want of an inch or two of fat.

kayakplayer

A few years ago while searching for more information on the way native people approached wilderness survival, I found a book on frontier humor with this joke at my local library. It went something like this:

Trapper and Brave are standing next to a fire while the wind whistles through the trees around them, snow flying. The Trapper is in furs with full leggings, and the brave is in breach cloth and deerskin vest.

Trapper: "How can you stand there like that without covering your legs and arms?"
Brave: "Is your face cold?"
Trapper: "Not very cold."
Brave: "I'm all face."

Now, if the Brave neglected to bring a set of furs to use in those circumstances, the fire, a shelter, and food and heated water become essential resources for him. But Papa Bear Whitmore, a long time wilderness survival expert talked about the importance of sitting down to think when discovering that you are turned around or circumstances become very challenging. He emphasized the importance of mental control. Tom Brown Jr., another expert in wilderness survival and who learned from Stalking Wolf also emphasizes the importance of stopping and planning what to do.

I agree that on a mechanistic level, energy is being consumed when people use mental control to feel warmer, and perhaps at a faster rate than if their body shunts blood flow from the extremities. But when people feel a lack of control, it does nothing to improve their survival chances, or the quality of their experience. In fact, it does the opposite based upon situations that Papa Bear described at a workshop that I attended. Helplessness in the face of harsh conditions only serves to prevent positive action. With a frame of mind that includes control over the body, one is better prepared to deal with the time that one has before the heat loss overwhelms the energy reserves and the bodies ability to keep the core at a good temperature. That is time to add layers, find shelter, signal an emergency, and build a fire depending upon where you are and what the resources are. But based upon personal experience, I'm very glad that I read Tom Brown's book The Tracker as a young man. And I'm glad that I met the Papa Bear. And yes, there are strong spiritual aspects to what they teach, and I'm glad for that as well.

sknhgy 

It doesn't "hurt" so much to ride in sub-freezing temps with my face exposed, but I wear a ski mask so as not to damage my skin. That and it feels better to be warm. I think I could survive a long time in the cold or heat, but who wants to damage their body needlessly?

electrik

The willful act of failing to dress up to avoid extra energy expenditure is machismo. I won't go further into what i know about the biology behind it, but deliberately living a "tough" life outdoors when you have options reeks of ignorance and because of that is only for young men.
Ok, I will do that. I am not advising never stepping outside of comfort zones, but there is a line to be crossed when that becomes poisonous to you. There is nothing romantic to me about somebody losing a nose because they're cold tolerant and refused a balaclava. That is not pushing the comfort zone only the intelligence zone. I recognize you still want to prove yourself to the elements perhaps, but once you do that what then?
Sounds like you guys were cold or caught a chill, maybe a poet would do a better job...

No misunderstanding there. Maybe you should eat more bacon and gain some fat if you want to run around without your mittens on so you can feel like a real man and tougher than those weak people inside(who coincidentally you couldn't survive without).