Burton

OK So I have to admit that some of the discussions on this forum regarding tire width and rolling resistance have left me more than a little amused. So lets have some real fun. Here`s something ANYONE with a bike and speedo can participate in and contribute in a fun and constructive manner.

Post a photo of the highest speed obtained on your bibe and the tires and conditions at the time. No - I personally really don`t care if you were going downhill with a tailwind on a Supercycle steel frame with $12 tires - if you felt safe enough on those tires to pull it off then it counts!

The whole point here is that there`s a lot more to top speed than just rolling resistance and road conditions and rider condition are usually a lot more critical anyway.

The other input or comments I`d be interested in are: How fast do you think would be too fast for that tire, suspension, bike combination ? What speed would you feel unsafe at? All questions that should have a variety of responses based on the rider.

My personal contribution to this thread will be as follows: Three different bikes will be equipped with identical spedometers, each calibrated to the tire size on the bike. Each bike will be used on the same commute and 10 days worth of data averaged to give a representative `experience` of the tire performance. Then the tires will be swapped out for another pair giving 6 sets of tires in all with a price rance from $15 per tire to $90 per tire.

I`ll be looking up some Schwalbe Marathon Supremes in a 28 x 2in size and stacking them against the Vee Rubber 700 x 38c that are already on the hybrid and may go for some Maxis Hookworm 26 x 2.5 against the Geax Tattoos 26 x 2.3 tires already on the CF mtb. The Miyata is currently equipped with Michelin 700 x 23c tires and theres a limit to what else will fit so I`ll have to think that one over.

Elvo

You're concerned about rolling resistance for tires on a hybrid?

Burton

Personally -NO!! But thre does seem to be a number of people on these forums that consider fat tires slow - and others that consider cheap hybrids OK for entry level racing. Thought this might give some other people to post some info about tires they like themselves - regardless of if its a $15 tire or a $100 tire. =n real world performance - I doubt that any difference would be overly significant to the average rider in the riding they normally do.

pixelharmony

I thought width, pressure, weight (tube + tire material) and smoothness are the main factors that play into rolling resistance.

https://www.terrymorse.com/bike/rolres.html

Burton

Hi - as far as I know, the technology and build quality have much more of an impact. Which is interesting because lots of people come into the shop with $2,000 road bikes and put $25 tires on them and assume they`re `fast` just because they`re skinny.

Anyway P I`m far more interested in what people use that they`re happy with and what kinds of speeds keep most people happy. I`ll personally be pitting some $15 tires against some $80 tires but I`m pretty sure any difference will only be marginal.

So what are you driving and how do you like them? It`ll be at least a few days before I get a speedo installed on all my bikes myself.

Elvo

Read this article:

https://www.conti-online.com/generato...gp4000s_en.pdf

A bit dated since most of those tires have newer versions out but compares several $50+ tires.

StephenH

Well, at the fastest speed attained, I wasn't taking pictures, so no can do.

I'm not sure what that would show. My Worksman cruiser has $8 tires on it. They're not especially flat-proof, but I never felt like they were going to blow up and kill me, either, so if I'm rolling down a hill, the type of tire doesn't really enter into it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLRDRzMWIsg

Burton

Appreciate the intentions and thanks for the link - however the point of this thread was NOT to create another academic discussion about rolling resistance or to base anything on labatory conditions.

In theory a Lamborgini is much faster than a Honda Civic - however rush hour traffic is a great equalizer and both can end up parked and idling. At which point a good stereo and gas milage come out on top. Legal speed limits are also the same for both cars anyway.

So was more interested in what tires people actually buy and how they actually drive. I`m sure their are some club members in this forum that compete on a regular basis. I`m also pretty sure they`re a minority.

JonathanGennick 

Here is a good article on tire performance that actually draws on repeatable testing instead of conjecture:

https://www.cyclingnews.com/features/...f-wheel-energy

It's an interesting read.

Burton

OK So today I managed to pick up and install a wired speedo on the carbon fiber urban assault bike I`ve been working. The computer was calibrated to the tire size and the drive home gave me some initial parameters of my commute.

Distance: 10.1 km
Time 12.47 min
Average speed: 24 kph
Maximum speed: 54 kph

No issues with the tires. They are freeride BMX tires and have a wrap-a-round tread, are extremely agile and brake extremely well. Limiting factors are gearing (44T main chainring), traffic and speed limits on the bike paths. Sticking to the street helped but there were also stop signs to deal with. A slight downhill grade in one section helped boost the max speed.

The plan is to swap out the crankset - probably for a compact road setup.

Here`s the update as of May 17th.
With 100.13km on the odometer, the top speed is 54km/hr, and the average speed is 20.5km/hr. Some local recent conditions that have affected the results have been the continuous rains and a brisk headwind that I`ve had to deal with every morning. The return ride at the end of the day ocassionally has a small headwind also, but the air is much closer to still. One of the issues of living beside a lake I guess.

I should mention that although this bike is carbon fiber and has some high tech components, any weight advantage is offset by the 25lb bag of tools I sling on my back so anyone with any bike should have no issues with these tires. They`re NOT slow.

The PSI rating on these tires is 35 to 100PSI and I`m running them around 55PSI.

Burton

These were mounted on a 1988 Miyata equipped with ITM Dual Aero Bars and a Mavic Cosmic Elite wheelset. Just picked up the speedo today for this one and didn't have a chance to install it.

However acceleration off the line and a slightly higher sustainable speed are initial impressions. That may just be an impression, however, due to the harsher ride resulting from the higher tire pressure. Any real advantages were completely offset by the flat picked up on the commute back home when traffic forced me through an area that I would have preferred to avoid on these tires.

A 15 minute delay to swap tubes and inflate a tire is a bit much to swallow on a 15 minute commute. Could be just a fluke, but even averaged out over 10 or 15 days - this will give these tires a handicap.

Update as of June 8th: I`ll be finishing up with the Maxxis Hookworks this week and in the meantime will be installing a speedo on the Miyaya to resume testing of these tires. In a velodrome The gearing and frame geometry alone would give this machine an advantage - but the condition of the streets and going to limit how fast I can actually drive. All the flats I've changed in the shop this month have been on tires less than 700 x 35c so I`ll be carrying a spare tire and tube on every outing - kinda silly on a 15km commute. In any case - the warm weather is here so less clothing and more overall aerodynamics should give these tires an additional advantage.

Update as of 12 July 2011. Today was the first official day commuting with these and it was raining AGAIN!! There are only 13.77 km on the odometer and the numbers so far give an average speed of 23.8 km/hr and a top speed of 54.5 km/hr.

In spite of the larger chain ring (50T) the overall diameter of the wheel is actually smaller than the Hookworms or Schwalbes or Tattoos and that limits top speed somewhat.

The bike is fun to drive and will maintain a higher average speed on the flats, but is less relaxing to drive in traffic because I have to watch traffic and road surface conditions simultaneously. On a closed track it would be great - on this commute its a little nerve racking because of road conditions.

But no flats on this outing and if the weather clears I`m expecting the numbers to go up too.I`m actually very attached to this bike but very aware that a MTB bike is better suited to what I have to deal with. The gearing on this machine isn't ideal for hills and there are a few of them on the way in to work.

The braking performance of the tires / brakes on a road bike compared to a hybrid or MTB also leaves a lot to be desired and driving in traffic I want to be able to stop in as short a distance as possible. I did find myself braking with this bike more than with any other - simply because the bike / tires can`t handle road conditions as well as the others.Compared to a 2 or 2.5 in tire - they just don't have much contact area. That might decrease rolling resistance - but it also reduces stability and braking effectiveness.

OK so here`s the update as of June 15th. The odometer has 50.19km which is pretty much the halfway point. Maximum speed is still 54.5km/hr and the average speed is 23.5km/hr. But the numbers are a little deceptive.. On smooth road the tires are a dream to ride. But the rims are radial spoked and designed for just that - straight line riding. They lose stability when forced to do the S-turns on the bicycle path that weren`t a problem with other tires/rims.

So the net result is that although I can drive faster with these tires - I`m on the brakes a lot for turns, cobblestones, pavement/ sidewalk interfaces and road repairs. Things that I`d ignore on wider tires. So the net result is a lower average speed than these would do on good road surfaces. But so far -- no more flats. I`m not the only one with these issues. I`m noticing most other riders on higher end wheel sets have similar issues. I`m going to swap the tires over to a 700 series 36 spoke wheelset with an interlaced spoke pattern before continuing the testing of these tires on my commute.

These tires/bike currently have 65.63km of test commuting on them. Top speed is still only 54.5km/hr but average speed is up to 23.8km/hr. Considering that I`m driving exclusively in the drops which is more aerodynamic and also not carrying a heavy tool pack when commuting - I was expecting better.


The 2in Schwalbes are currently at 268.45km and have an average speed of 23.4 with none of those advantages.

Burton

Bought these tires last year and have yet to have a flat with them. At a retail price of $15 a tire I personally consider them a bargin.

The commute in on these today was to a different address and was almost entirely on bicycle paths with no major hills and only a couple stop signs. It showed. Even though I was carrying a thermos of coffee and a couple other goodies, the cruising speed was 29kph even though the top speed capped off at 41kph.

Will be running all of these tires individually over a period of several weeks and will let the data stabalize over a 100km period to give some other feedback. In this case the tires are being run on a cromoly frame with no suspension and the overall package is a very rider friendly machine. I like it a lot - it fact it compares very favorably with the CF mtb with front suspension in rideability through rough asphault.

Gearing is 20/32/41T with a 13- 26T cassette. Wheels are 700 series welded rims on Shimano 400CX hubs that were recently overhauled.

Update as of 12 May 2011: With 62km on the odometer, the average speed (with stops, headwinds, hills and traffic issues) is 21.5kph, top speed reached is currently 54kph and cruising speed is pretty steady at 30kph on level ground in still air.

Update as of 21 May 2011: Just clocked in 106kms on these tires and the average speed was 21.0 km/hr (with headwinds, hills, rain and traffic delays included) Top speed is still 54km/hr. The weather was lousy for most of the driving and sunny skies just showed up today.

The tires are excellent and the riding speed between the Vee Ruber and Geax is impossible to distinguish. What is possible to pick out is the increased suspension effect in the Geax Tattoos. A big plus.

Burton

Well today I got a surprise package! David from Bicycles Eddy dropped me off a couple special order boxes and apparently he also ordered the folding version which are even lighter! I say even lighter because the Marathon Supremes have a new anti-flat protection called Vectran which is 3x more cut resistant than Aramid and more puncture resistant than any other material on the market. So it let them cut down the tire thickness and therefore the weight.

The tires looked HUGE but then folding tires always look bigger than they really are installed and sue enough - they dropped right on the hybrid with room to spare and only look marginally larger than the Vee Rubber 622 x 39 tires. However, compared to the 700x23c tires on the road bike - the're pretty BIG!!
But there's lots of clearance in the frame.
The speedo has been recalibrated to the new measured circumference and tomorrow I`ll start using them for commuting.

The object here isn`t to try to prove that fat tires are faster - but rather to demonstrate that other factors influence average speed besides rolling resistance. Personally I feel more comfortable at higher speeds on fat tires where the road conditions are questionable. I don`t worry about pinch-flats or rim damage and so don`t slow down or try to avoid things that would have me hitting the brakes on a road bike.

But these Schwalbes were expensive and are supposed to have the same compound as is on their racing tires - lets see how they make out over a 100 mile test. This size is rated for a load of 135lbs and has a PSI range of 30 to 70 PSI. I`ll be running them between 45 and 55PSI.

OK Final update.. With 114.30km on the odometer as June 1st 2011, here are the numbers. Top speed reached on my commute was 57 km/hr and average speed was 22.5 km/hr. The higher top speed is easily explained by the larger wheel diameter which changed the gearing and required a higher top speed to spin out the 44T main chainring.

The higher average spped I can only attribute to Schwalbe technology. These tires do incorporate the same compound as their racing tires.

Epilogue as of 3 June 2011.
I`m officially in love! Must be because these are the most expensive tires I`ve ever put on a street bike and I have no regrets. The pair set me back about $150.00CDN. As of today there is 147.28kms on the odometer and the average speed is up to 22.8 km/hr in spite of some pretty strong headwinds lately. But its not the marginally increased speed that interests me - its the braking performance and the fact that when driving home on unlit bike paths at 10:00PM I don`t care if I can`t see the path perfectly. Theses tires will roll over anything.

And one of the guys I`m working with got another flat with his road bike with skinny tires today. Those Schwalbes, on the other hand, will be just about impervious to punctures and pinch flats. I fixed 10 flats just today - for other people.

As of 18th June 2011 these tires oficially have 200.13km on them - strictly commuting. Average steed is now up to 23.2km/hr - likely due to clothing changes due to warmer weather and fewer issues with headwinds. Aside from one set of stairs I have clinb to switch boulevards and manditory stoplights and stop signs, I can do most of the approx 12km commute at over 30km/hr.

I`ve passed the bike to several clients to test drive the tires and no-one has been less than enthusiastic about the ride. Quote: "A blast to ride and unbelievable braking. Can`t believe how fast they are - what a difference compared to what I`m driving!"

Re-Cycle

Different bikes especially ones with different wheel sizes are going to give you different results even if you were using the same exact tire model on both. A more fair test would be to use the same bike, take it to the top of a big hill on a windless day and coast down. What was your top speed and how far did you coast before you had to put your foot down? Switch tires and repeat.

Garfield Cat

Marginal difference yes. But I still like my Conti 4000-S. And I didn't pay retail. Does anyone pay retail anymore?

Burton

Not sure what your point is. The bike I`m currently running the Schwalbes on is exactly the same bike I was running the Vee Rubber tires on. And rim size isn`t the deciding factor in wheel diameter - tire size is. Both the Schwalbes and the Geax tires dwarf the 700 x 23 tire rim combination and the speedos had to be calibrated accordingly.

And your test might make sense to you but I personally don`t use a tire or bike like that and I doubt you do either. I also don`t drive on steel drums. So personally I think using bikes I drive where I usually drive them will give me a pretty objective view of any differences that might be usefull to me.

But this is a public forum and if you want to run your own tests and post the results - feel free.

Burton

Personally I feel you have pay for something one - then you have to live with it every day afterwards. Performance is of far more interest to me than price. If everything else is equal - then I might look at price - but I`ve never found that to be the case.

It might be more usefull to other members if you posted what you like about those tires besides the price and what else you compared them to.

Scrockern8r

No photo. BUT...
Got my '77 Schwinn Traveller III spun out at 47MPH, downhill with a Panaracer TG on the back and an el cheapo Cheng Shin tire on the front. ~100 miles later, the Cheng Shin lost a couple belts and popped after it developed an egg. (Glad I was going slow. It happened in less than 5 seconds.)
Since then, I've run the Panaracer TGs front and back. The quality vs. price and longevity made it worthwhile to me. I'd take that baby up to 70MPH, if I could, with the TGs on it.
Also, I pretty much maxed out the air pressure at ~80 PSI with the original steel wheels. With that pressure, I wore the tread off the rear tire pretty fast. Now, with some newer clincher rims and higher pressures, I find the treadwear reduced dramatically.
I run pressures in accordance with "tire drop" and find it an excellent compromise between comfort and perceived rolling resistance.

Burton

Thanks for the post and the link! That `tire drop` practice makes a lot of sense to me too.

Burton

The Maxxis HookWorms are the original freeride / urban assault tire and likely the largest tire my frame will accept. The plan is to pick these up on Friday and install them on the CF mtb bike where they`ll probably stay. The Geax Tattoos will be moved over to an electric bike that I`m working on.

The speed limit on the bike paths is only 20 km/hr and the weather is starting to change so I`m expecting more traffic on the bike paths which will mean I`ll likely spend more time in the street where the Hookworms will be right at home with whatever the city can throw at them.

Update: It was Saturday before I could get these installed and the speedo re-calibrated to the larger circumference but the bike is now ready to roll where skinny tires fear to tread! Heavier than the Geax Tattoos not just because of the larger size but because they`re not available as folding tires. I did minimize the weight issue by skipping the heavy duty downhill tubes that a lot of people use with these tires. I`ll be commuting in the city after all and although some of the roads are in poor shape - an off-road downhill course would be harder on both bike and tires.

The initial results after the first day out are boringly similar to everything else! With 15.04 km on the odometer the top speed is 54 km / hr and the average speed to date is 23.0 km / hr. Shucks! So whatever happened to fat tires being boat anchors??? The only big difference I`m noticing is that the road problems I`d avoid with the road bike - I`m seeking out and driving right over with these tires! Yeah - there should be a `FUN` barometer attached to products!




Update as of June 7th 2011. With 46.18 km on the odometer we`re almost at the halfway point and the numbers don`t reflect any penalty due to the extra size. Average speed is currently 21.8 km / hr and top speed is 58 km /hr. There is no problem cruising with these at 30 km/hr and although braking performance isn't quite as good as the Schwalbes - its still outstanding and the bike can be hauled down from 50 km/hr to a stop in about 25 ft. They`ll also easily handle road conditions that I wouldn't even consider subjecting a road bike to. Dropping the tire pressure would also make a front suspension unnecessary for the street.

So here we are at June 8th and the average speed has crept up to 23.10km/hr with 81.29km on the odometer. But a few other things have changed too. There are still headwinds and hills but the past few days have been warm and sunny and I was able to drop the rain gear and ride with fewer and more formfitting clothes (spandex). That probably had far more of an effect on average speed than any differences in rolling resistance between tires - which is actually one of the points I`m trying to make with this post.


Final update as of 10Th June 2011: With 112.65km on the odometer the top speed is still 58 km/hr and the average speed now stands at 23.3 km/hr. And lets keep things in perspective. The lighter clothing is an advantage to all tires. The Schwalbes now have 163.23km on them and their average speed has crept up to 23.0 km/hr.

despoke

I just replaced knobby tires on my MTB with Michelin City Tires (slicks). I got the 26 x 1.85 size. I read the Finland report on wider tires being having less resistance and that made me happy. I know this is a controversial subject but I put the wide tires rather than skinnier ones on my MTB primarily for cosmetic reasons as I wanted to retain the MTB look. I ride my bike for fitness. If I can go a little faster as the Finnish report says about wider tires ...fine. And if you wish to disagree with the Finish findings I respect you and wish you well. Again the wider tires make me happy.

stapfam

Why worry about top speed. I have a road hill round here that is long enough and steep enough to get 50mph on an MTB fitted with Knobblies on and that is coasting. But put those knobblies on a 100 mile road ride and I will be finished by the end. There is more to a tyre than how fast it can go.

Then again a Different tyre- Michelin PR3s in 23 and two different bikes. Same hill and well over 50 on one of my road bikes- but the other road bike and I start chickening out at 45. Bike set up will affect top speed.

But if you want a tyre that works on on a bike to have given me my fastest recorded speed- it is a Panaracer Fire XC in 2.1. That was in 2003 on a fast downhill on a 100 mile Offroad ride in one day. Mind you I was a lot fitter then and that speed-Remember offroad- was 53.8mph. But I cheated.



There is such a variety of tyres around that will give you different characteristics when you ride them. You may want long life- puncture resistance- speed- grip in the dry- grip in the wet-----And so on. All you have to do is fit the tyre that will suit you- your riding style and the bike. 10 different riders and you will get 11 different answers to what works. I only know what works for me and on which bike.

Doug5150

I think you will find that in terms of "real world" performance, most bicycle tires generally , , , , , , , , roll.
Except for the square ones.
Which are cheap, yes, but MAN do they suck. Terrible ride, tried them twice and it was the same both times. I'll never do that again.

Monster Pete

Bah, you're just riding the square tyres on the wrong surface. On precisely the right shape of road, square wheels roll better than round ones

Burton

You really hit it on the nose with tire profile! That has a bigger impact on rolling resistance than tire size. I`m testing out round profile tires only - even though some tires designed for asphalt have a square profile - similar to mtb tires in that regard.

Guess its pretty safe to say that most people have no problem understanding that mountain ike tires don`t work well in road bike competitions and roadracing tires are a disasterous choice for offroad racing, but urban commuting is a little more difficult to nail down and there I feel that tire choice should be determined by road conditions, what you`re packing and how important/unimportant an extra mph is to you.

Personally I`m finding wider tires give me more control, confidence in traffic and don`t affect my average speed to any serious extemt.