Thoughts of the fishes-salmoning
08-06-12, 02:13 PM
#26
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Earlier I put it down to ignorance, and stand by that, but the whole "can't read an arrow" thing is puzzling. I have had opportunities to actually speak to salmon, and the sense I get is that the arrows only apply to those who ride fancy bike and wear spandex.
OK, OK. . . It's stupidity.
OK, OK. . . It's stupidity.
08-06-12, 03:37 PM
#29
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Tampa/St. Pete, Florida
Posts: 9,352
Bikes: Specialized Hardrock Mountain (Stolen); Giant Seek 2 (Stolen); Diamondback Ascent mid 1980 - 1997
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
3 Posts
Keep in mind that a lot of people who don't ride regularly, and even some who do find themselves on a bicycle frequently, think of themselves as pedestrians with wheels, not vehicles. In many places, when a pedestrian must walk on the road, they are supposed to walk facing the oncoming traffic. For some riders this may well be simply a misguided attempt at obeying the local laws and codes.
08-06-12, 03:48 PM
#30
Still spinnin'.....
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Whitestown, IN
Posts: 1,208
Bikes: Fisher Opie freeride/urban assault MTB, Redline Monocog 29er MTB, Serrota T-Max Commuter, Klein Rascal SS, Salsa Campion Road bike, Pake Rum Runner FG/SS Road bike, Cannondale Synapse Road bike, Santana Arriva Road Tandem, and others....
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
2 Posts
I don't really care about salmon because I am not my brothers keeper. I will mention that they are endangering themselves to obvious noobs, but others I am happy to pass by and just know that they won't likely reproduce. My brother was in the habit of salmoning for many years and no amount of discussion or pleading would change his behavior, until a high school friend of his was hit head on by a right-hand turn driver in a local neighborhood. Now he rides on the proper side of the road, but honestly if he still salmoned I would just smile and nod my head, and hope he had his life insurance payed up for his family's sake.
Stupid people are going to be stupid and do stupid things because it is who they are. The only way some people will change is to learn the hard way.
Stupid people are going to be stupid and do stupid things because it is who they are. The only way some people will change is to learn the hard way.
08-06-12, 03:54 PM
#31
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Liked 4,532 Times
in
3,158 Posts
08-06-12, 07:00 PM
#33
Senior Member
Thread Starter
08-06-12, 09:25 PM
#34
Randomhead
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Posts: 24,539
Liked 3,837 Times
in
2,611 Posts
we don't have too many wrong way cyclists around here, but the one near-death experience I had was with a guy on an expensive bike. Turned right, and I met him at the apex of the corner. The road I was turning right onto/he was on is twisty and has lots of blind corners and hills and no shoulders at all. Still don't know how he survived it.
08-07-12, 08:50 AM
#35
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Posts: 720
Bikes: 2012 Cinelli Mystic Rat, Nashbar CX
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
I'm 6'1" 190lb, and like you, I'm moving. Like I said, IMHO, it's just easier for me to move then there to be any doubt. Thankfully, this is something that rarely happens anyway.
08-07-12, 09:19 AM
#36
Junior Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 134
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
It's confusing to some people when you're supposed to walk against traffic and ride with traffic.
When you're walking 3 mph on a 40 mph road, the cars coming at you at 37 or 43 mph won't have a big difference in reaction time, but you can see them. You can also go on the grass on the side of the road to get away from a car coming directly at you. When you're riding 15 mph, the difference between 25 and 55 mph is significant. 25 mph is a residential street, 55 mph is a highway, which speed would you rather have cars pass you at? When you're going with traffic, the cars have twice the reaction time to pass you, and they have the option to slow down to your speed to avoid impact. When you're going against traffic, you and the car must both come to a complete stop to avoid impact, and the car behind must also completely stop.
When you're walking 3 mph on a 40 mph road, the cars coming at you at 37 or 43 mph won't have a big difference in reaction time, but you can see them. You can also go on the grass on the side of the road to get away from a car coming directly at you. When you're riding 15 mph, the difference between 25 and 55 mph is significant. 25 mph is a residential street, 55 mph is a highway, which speed would you rather have cars pass you at? When you're going with traffic, the cars have twice the reaction time to pass you, and they have the option to slow down to your speed to avoid impact. When you're going against traffic, you and the car must both come to a complete stop to avoid impact, and the car behind must also completely stop.
08-07-12, 09:37 AM
#37
Fat Guy on a Little Bike
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 15,944
Bikes: Two wheeled ones
Liked 352 Times
in
177 Posts
It's confusing to some people when you're supposed to walk against traffic and ride with traffic.
When you're walking 3 mph on a 40 mph road, the cars coming at you at 37 or 43 mph won't have a big difference in reaction time, but you can see them. You can also go on the grass on the side of the road to get away from a car coming directly at you. When you're riding 15 mph, the difference between 25 and 55 mph is significant. 25 mph is a residential street, 55 mph is a highway, which speed would you rather have cars pass you at? When you're going with traffic, the cars have twice the reaction time to pass you, and they have the option to slow down to your speed to avoid impact. When you're going against traffic, you and the car must both come to a complete stop to avoid impact, and the car behind must also completely stop.
When you're walking 3 mph on a 40 mph road, the cars coming at you at 37 or 43 mph won't have a big difference in reaction time, but you can see them. You can also go on the grass on the side of the road to get away from a car coming directly at you. When you're riding 15 mph, the difference between 25 and 55 mph is significant. 25 mph is a residential street, 55 mph is a highway, which speed would you rather have cars pass you at? When you're going with traffic, the cars have twice the reaction time to pass you, and they have the option to slow down to your speed to avoid impact. When you're going against traffic, you and the car must both come to a complete stop to avoid impact, and the car behind must also completely stop.
Ticket them and let's see how long they stay confused.
08-07-12, 10:20 AM
#38
Still spinnin'.....
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Whitestown, IN
Posts: 1,208
Bikes: Fisher Opie freeride/urban assault MTB, Redline Monocog 29er MTB, Serrota T-Max Commuter, Klein Rascal SS, Salsa Campion Road bike, Pake Rum Runner FG/SS Road bike, Cannondale Synapse Road bike, Santana Arriva Road Tandem, and others....
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
2 Posts
Stop making excuses for people! Their reason doesn't matter, period. I strongly disagree about it being confusing, or ignorance, but it's not even really the point. There is a rule. Not following the rule is dangerous to others. The issue is how to coerce compliance.
Ticket them and let's see how long they stay confused.
Ticket them and let's see how long they stay confused.
I will agree completely with that.
08-07-12, 04:42 PM
#39
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Stop making excuses for people! Their reason doesn't matter, period. I strongly disagree about it being confusing, or ignorance, but it's not even really the point. There is a rule. Not following the rule is dangerous to others. The issue is how to coerce compliance.
Ticket them and let's see how long they stay confused.
Ticket them and let's see how long they stay confused.
08-07-12, 07:13 PM
#40
Banned
It's confusing to some people when you're supposed to walk against traffic and ride with traffic.
When you're walking 3 mph on a 40 mph road, the cars coming at you at 37 or 43 mph won't have a big difference in reaction time, but you can see them. You can also go on the grass on the side of the road to get away from a car coming directly at you. When you're riding 15 mph, the difference between 25 and 55 mph is significant. 25 mph is a residential street, 55 mph is a highway, which speed would you rather have cars pass you at? When you're going with traffic, the cars have twice the reaction time to pass you, and they have the option to slow down to your speed to avoid impact. When you're going against traffic, you and the car must both come to a complete stop to avoid impact, and the car behind must also completely stop.
When you're walking 3 mph on a 40 mph road, the cars coming at you at 37 or 43 mph won't have a big difference in reaction time, but you can see them. You can also go on the grass on the side of the road to get away from a car coming directly at you. When you're riding 15 mph, the difference between 25 and 55 mph is significant. 25 mph is a residential street, 55 mph is a highway, which speed would you rather have cars pass you at? When you're going with traffic, the cars have twice the reaction time to pass you, and they have the option to slow down to your speed to avoid impact. When you're going against traffic, you and the car must both come to a complete stop to avoid impact, and the car behind must also completely stop.
Bikes are vehicles, DEFINED as such in many states; ALL states provide equal right to the road on a bike, and require the same duty while ON the road -- namely, FOLLOW THE TRAFFIC LAW.
Anyone confused by THAT needs to stay home and watch The Price Is Right.
08-07-12, 08:05 PM
#41
Fat Guy on a Little Bike
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 15,944
Bikes: Two wheeled ones
Liked 352 Times
in
177 Posts
No, I am not. I would prefer not being dragged away and beaten. These guys have beaten folks up just for using cameras.I don't mind when people disagree with me intelligently and I don't mind discussions based on reason. What you've typed have been excuses, rationalizations and statements based on conjecture...conjecture against all evidence. What do you suggest, we kiss them to death?
I'm not naive, I know the world's not perfect and I understand you never get exactly what you want. I also understand that in terms of world priorities, this doesn't rank. However, in terms of what SHOULD be, they should be ticketed. Reality is that Philly police don't even really respond to assaults unless there is blood or unless it happens to a family member of the police.
08-07-12, 08:45 PM
#42
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
When you can provide an answer to the question that isn't based on conjecture, feel free to fault mine. If all you can provide besides conjecture is an insistence that people be reminded of the rules through punishments for getting caught breaking them (which I don't actually disagree with), you need to take it to the law makers and enforcers if you want it to do any good. Railing about it here just makes you seem like a perfect example of the G.I.F.T.
08-07-12, 10:16 PM
#43
I had a head-on with a salmon once... He was fixated on his front wheel, and I went wide to get around him, just as he swerved, perfectly countering my move, still without looking up. I think he was drunk. Now, I stop for every salmon, but back my bike up after I stop so that I block the width of the lane. It makes me visible (big yellow panniers), sends a message that I am not comfortable playing chicken, and most importantly, is annoying in that it forces the salmon to slow, or even stop. If enough others did the same, I'm guessing the salmons would quickly figure out how to ride with the flow.
08-08-12, 12:22 AM
#44
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 106
Bikes: Mongoose Crossway 250, Giant Upland SE
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
08-08-12, 05:37 AM
#45
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Hawthorne NJ
Posts: 377
Bikes: Surly LHT, Wabi Special, All City Big Block, 1933 Iver Johnson Mobicycle, Giant TCR Advanced
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Riding head-on towards a salmoning rider used to make me uncomfortable. I felt I either had to swing out into traffic or play chicken with them. Now when I see someone salmoning in my direction I just come to a complete stop right next to the curb or side of the road so that they have no choice but to swing around me into the road if they want to continue.
08-08-12, 06:40 AM
#46
L T X B O M P F A N S R
I think a lot of them may be riding the wrong way for a short distance only, to maybe avoid crossing some intersection they're intimidated by, or to get to some other road more quickly than they could otherwise.
Anyway, if it's something I can't control, I try not to worry about it. I just pass on the traffic side. Same goes for joggers on the side of the road or in bike lanes.
Anyway, if it's something I can't control, I try not to worry about it. I just pass on the traffic side. Same goes for joggers on the side of the road or in bike lanes.
08-08-12, 06:43 AM
#47
I can see how the big arrows in the lane and constantly being yelled at...and the frequent news articles discussing nuisance riders and salmon...could be confusing.
I don't think it's an education issue, and even assuming it is - it's THEIR RESPONSIBILITY TO LEARN THE ETIQUETTE/CODE THAT APPLIES.
I've said this before - my answer is to start ticketing salmon and sidewalk riders. $25 seems fair. If they can't pay on the spot, the bike gets confiscated and they can have it back after paying the ticket. All stopped bikes get checked against a stolen bike registry (there isn't one, but I can dream). I wonder how quickly they'll figure it out then?
I don't think it's an education issue, and even assuming it is - it's THEIR RESPONSIBILITY TO LEARN THE ETIQUETTE/CODE THAT APPLIES.
I've said this before - my answer is to start ticketing salmon and sidewalk riders. $25 seems fair. If they can't pay on the spot, the bike gets confiscated and they can have it back after paying the ticket. All stopped bikes get checked against a stolen bike registry (there isn't one, but I can dream). I wonder how quickly they'll figure it out then?
however, i totally disagree with the suggestion of confiscating ones personal property. unless one can show i'm on a stolen bike, no one is taking my bike with him.
08-08-12, 06:51 AM
#48
Still spinnin'.....
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Whitestown, IN
Posts: 1,208
Bikes: Fisher Opie freeride/urban assault MTB, Redline Monocog 29er MTB, Serrota T-Max Commuter, Klein Rascal SS, Salsa Campion Road bike, Pake Rum Runner FG/SS Road bike, Cannondale Synapse Road bike, Santana Arriva Road Tandem, and others....
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
2 Posts
I think a lot of them may be riding the wrong way for a short distance only, to maybe avoid crossing some intersection they're intimidated by, or to get to some other road more quickly than they could otherwise.
Anyway, if it's something I can't control, I try not to worry about it. I just pass on the traffic side. Same goes for joggers on the side of the road or in bike lanes.
Anyway, if it's something I can't control, I try not to worry about it. I just pass on the traffic side. Same goes for joggers on the side of the road or in bike lanes.
I actually do this often where I live because it is very rural and on many of the highways it is safer than trying to cross the 4-6 lanes of 50+mph traffic where there is no traffic signal. I don't really consider this "salmoning" though because it is generally for less than a block and 99% of my riding is on right side of the road. I also exercise extreme caution and give right-of-way to any automobile traffic or opposing cyclist by pulling to the curb and stopping, and I have even had a local cop comment that he thought it was a much better idea than crossing the highway at that point.
[EDIT: There are very wide margins on both sides of this highway, wider in some spots than a traffic lane, and so I seldom pose a head-on threat to anyone as I stay to the far left of the margin.]
Last edited by Stealthammer; 08-10-12 at 04:40 AM.
08-08-12, 07:52 AM
#49
Fat Guy on a Little Bike
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 15,944
Bikes: Two wheeled ones
Liked 352 Times
in
177 Posts
When you can provide an answer to the question that isn't based on conjecture, feel free to fault mine. If all you can provide besides conjecture is an insistence that people be reminded of the rules through punishments for getting caught breaking them (which I don't actually disagree with), you need to take it to the law makers and enforcers if you want it to do any good. Railing about it here just makes you seem like a perfect example of the G.I.F.T.
i don't disagree with salmon / offenders being ticketed. unless a sidewalk is specifcally prohibited from bicycle use, then i don't have an issue wth riding on them (not as a matter of habit, but for safety reasons), and thus, i disagree with ticketing cyclists there.
however, i totally disagree with the suggestion of confiscating ones personal property. unless one can show i'm on a stolen bike, no one is taking my bike with him.
however, i totally disagree with the suggestion of confiscating ones personal property. unless one can show i'm on a stolen bike, no one is taking my bike with him.
08-08-12, 07:52 AM
#50
Been Around Awhile
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 30,037
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Liked 1,601 Times
in
1,081 Posts
I've said this before - my answer is to start ticketing salmon and sidewalk riders. $25 seems fair. If they can't pay on the spot, the bike gets confiscated and they can have it back after paying the ticket. All stopped bikes get checked against a stolen bike registry (there isn't one, but I can dream). I wonder how quickly they'll figure it out then?
