OldZephyr

It's true that the labor will be a fairly small proportion of the cost of changing the crankset, etc. on a bike like the Nashbar. Sometimes my shop charges for putting on components I buy from them, sometimes not, but even when they charge, their charges are always reasonable. The components are the bigger cost.

If you buy the bike at the shop, if it's a good shop, they will swap out equivalent components at no charge and they won't charge for the labor of doing so. That doesn't make up for the lower cost of a Nashbar Touring or a Windsor Tourist -- they will always be less expensive than what you can buy new at your LBS -- but because both of those mail order bikes come with gearing that's too high for loaded touring in hilly country (and therefore would require some modification), the ability to swap out components on a new LBS bike for "free" somewhat narrows the gap between the cost of the mail order bikes and the costs of a bike that's bought at a shop.

As an illustration, I bought my Trek 720 at a bike swap for $120. It was a steal and I love it. But the total cost of getting the bike the way I wanted it meant that I put at least another $500-600 into the bike (replacing the Helicomatic rear wheel with a good reliable modern unit, replacing the 28-44-48 crankset with a 22-32-44, indexing the rear derailleur, new cable guides, replacing the worn bar tape, replacing the old and crappy tires, and so on). It still cost a lot less than a new Trek 520 or a LHT, but it wasn't a $120 bike when I was finished with it.

njkayaker

If it's such a "minor" point, why did you think it was necessary to distort what he said? Bizarre.

njkayaker

I have no idea why you think it's OK for people do distort what people say. And sstorkel did it more than once. Bizarre.

BRAZUCA

UPDATE #2: I just did the test ride on the Trek 520 today during lunch time, I did not go to far but took the time to shift several times, adjust my fit and feel the bike, I was not in a hurry.

Positive things:
1- Beautiful paint and finish overall
2- Smooth and stable ride

Negative things:
1- The fit was not perfect, it came equipped with a long stem, besides the already long top tube and since this is the largest frame they offer (60 cm), I had to extend my arms too far in order to operate the brakes.
2- I was not as upright as I was on the LHT (same size frame) and not as confortable
3- The slopped top tube left a lot of seat post exposed, I know this is the norm nowadays, but I don't like it.
4- This really puzzled me, the shifting was not as precise as I felt on the LHT. The RD is Deore and the LHT has LX, not sure if this would cause a difference. It was OK, but not great.

Conclusions at this time: I will take another ride on the 60cm LHT as well as a 58cm. Too bad Trek does not have anything in between 57 cm and 60 cm. At this time, I'm no longer considering the Trek 520, it is more expensive and I just could not justify the money for the ride.
I'm now considering the option of building my 1983 Trek 600 with modern components and make it my touring bike, the frame is in like new condition and after taking measurements and comparing this weekend, I noticed it has the same frame dimensions as the Trek 520 that I just rode, however, the top tube is straight and the handlebar stem is not extended. My Trek is 100% stock with 27" wheels, so it would be a full modification, starting with 700cc wheels and 32 or 35 tires. I could do it step by step and not spend all the money at once, as well as select better components. The ride and the fit I already love and the lugs are pretty cool. Anyway, I will test ride the LHT and post my comments as soon as I can make that happen and will also let you know about the decision to modify my current bike. I will do some searching on bike forum about conversions and try to check how much I would spent. The frame is Reynolds 531 and the Trek 600 was already classified as a light touring/sports bike in their original catalog. Time is a problem with two little boys at home and work + family commitments. Also, I don't have the proper tools for it, some investment would be required. One thing that I really liked is the bar end shifting, I would be looking for a conversion to this as well. Thanks for all the inputs and comments, my intention is not to create disputes or conflict, just hope that others can benefit from my experience and the Trek 520 is a great bike, just not the perfect fit for me.
As a side comment: When I got to the LBS and asked about my test ride on the 520, one of the employees at the counter said: "Oh, I don't think they even make that bike anymore, it was discontinued some years ago". How come a Trek dealer employee does not know that this is one of the greatest bikes produced and that it has a history of very succesful touring trips around the world, it just bothered me. I guess they really prefer to sell racing and mountain bikes. The attitude at the Surly dealer was completely different and the mechanic came to show me the bike since he has a LHT and was excited about the product.

BRAZUCA

Here is a picture of my vintage Trek 600, it's a '83 with Suntour BL. Trying to sell it right now, but may change plans and build it with newer components. Decisions, decisions...

sstorkel

This might just be an adjustment issue. Sometimes demo bikes don't get the attention they deserve! I once rode an expensive road bike that was equipped with SRAM's top-of-the-line Red components. I literally couldn't get the front derailleur to shift from the small ring back to the large ring because it was so poorly adjusted!

One thing to do is check to make sure that the rear drop-outs are wide enough to accept a modern hub. At some point, I can't remember when, the spacing between the rear drop-outs when from 126mm to 130mm for road hubs. Mountain bike hubs require 135mm. A steel frame can be "cold set" to increase the spacing, but I have to admit it makes me a more than a bit nervous!


Have you tried integrated brake+shift levers (ex: SRAM DoubleTap, Shimano STI)? I know the curmudgeons in this forum frown upon then, but I personally think they're the best thing since sliced bread (and disc brakes )!

rekmeyata

That's a beautiful bike, I wouldn't rebuild it with newer stuff, why? It's a vintage bike built by hand and brazed with silver here in the USA and it should remain that way. just an opinion.

Bicycle Outfitters carries two touring bikes you should ride. One is the Jamis Aurora Elite, a traditional designed touring bike built of Reynolds 631 not the 501 lower end tubing. It uses the tried and proven Shimano 105 transmission, and has bar end shifters.

fuzz2050

Well, new brake levers will improve comfort and braking, a new crankset will give you more and lower gears, and a new cassette rear wheel will be stronger (especially if that's one of the Treks that were built around the Maillard Helicomatic) and easier to repair in the event of a spoke breakage.

Don't get me wrong, that's a very nice bike, but it was built by the thousand. I only has value in that it's very nice to ride, not as a museum piece. Any upgrade that makes it better to ride is a good thing.

rekmeyata

First off new braking system will not make you stop any faster, that's nonsense, better pads on older single pivot brakes will do wonders. Braking distance is more about tire adhesion and weight then anything else. The comfort issue is a moot point, I have briftors and regular, I find no difference in comfort...but that's just my own personal experience your's may be different.

I agree with a new crankset, you could go with triples, my 85 Schwinn came with triples from the factory, so you could find a triple crankset that would work just fine with a 7 speed freewheel.

But a cassette would not be any stronger, plenty of people use to and still tour on older bikes with 7 speed freewheels and never broke a hub. It was the 8 speed freewheels that had the issues and those issues were rare but few of those are on the road anyways.

Spoke breakage, most people I know carry fiberfix spokes, easy to use and will get you to an IBS. Replacing a broken spoke with a new steel spoke on the road is not an easy process regardless what kind of hub, either way you have to remove the cassette or the freewheel. FiberFix spoke requires no removal of cassette or freewheel.

OldZephyr

As I alluded to in an earlier post, I extensively upgraded my 1985 Trek 720, and the conversion wasn't low cost (partially because I bought a new rear wheel to replace the Helicomatic hub), but I have a bike that I like with good modern components and it was still quite a bit less than buying a new 520 or LHT: https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/?page_id=277037

Here are some suggestions:

1) I too like bar ends more than down tube shifters. You could get some used Suntour barcons on ebay if friction shifting is OK with you. Cost: around $40 or so, plus the cable and cable housing. Alternative is to get new Shimano 8 speed bar end shifters, about $80-100 on eBay or at bike shops, this allows you to go friction or get rear indexing, but then you need a Shimano rear derailleur to get rear indexing (8 speed indexing will work on 7 speed cluster, see Sheldon Brown).

2) Assuming you don't have a Helicomatic rear hub, get a new Shimano 7 speed freewheel, maybe a 13-28, there also is a 14-34 with a huge jump between the 24 and 34 cog (but it works). The ramps and notches in modern freewheels make shifting *much* more crisp than on the old freewheels, even with friction shifting. A new Shimano freewheel is only $20 and money really well spent. Maybe the biggest bang for your buck. It should squeeze in there if the bike has 126mm spacing.

3) Get an inexpensive mountain triple (22-32-44) crankset, and that paired with the 13-28 freewheel will get you a nice low gear. Shimano mountain triple and sealed bottom bracket would cost maybe $60 or so on the low end. They are ugly in my opinion, but functionally it is a huge upgrade.

4) You don't have to change the wheelset from 27"! If you want strong tires, the Schwalbe Marathons are still made in 27 x 1.25 size. Cost: around $80. Panaracers are good too and have more of a traditional look and are cheaper than the Schwalbes.

5) Upgrade the brake shoes -- maybe $10.

6) Get aero levers -- cheap Tektro ones are around $25 or so. I know it's sacrilege, but like these a lot more than the traditional levers.

The biggest bang for your buck in terms of the upgrades is Suntour barcons and a modern 7 speed Shimano freewheel. Next, a new mountain triple will give you all the gearing you are likely to need. The other stuff has less of an impact but is nice.

Oddly enough, my wife and I had the same experience as you did when we visited a Trek dealer to inquire about a 520. The salesperson said the 520 wasn't available, he couldn't order one, that we really didn't want one, he said the Surly LHT was "a pig", and that the Salsa Vaya they had in stock (with a compact double) was just the ticket.

fuzz2050

Modern (or vintage for that matter) aero brake levers have higher mechanical advantage, which will usually make caliper brakes (Either single pivot or dual pivot, or centerpull for that matter) stop you better for the same hand effort. You're right that ultimate braking power is determined by tire adhesion, but that isn't the only factor involved in perceived braking effort.

As far as comfort, it is subjective, but I definitely like the nice cushy hoods on modern brake levers more than the thin knife-like wedges on the older style.

Cassettes are just a fundamentally stronger design than freewheels, of any speed. Yes, people have done thousands and thousands of miles on freewheels without any problem, but that doesn't make the design any less inferior. The fewer speeds you have, the less noticeable the disadvantage is because there is less unsupported axle, but no matter what, it's still a poor design.

Have you tried removing a cassette in the field? It's not fun, but it takes this tool. With a freewheel, you're lucky if you can do it with a 12 inch breaker bar. One of them is a heck of a lot easier to carry with you.

I'm not saying you can't tour on that bike as is, it looks to be in great condition, and well built (at the time) for the task. However, technology has improved, and there is no reason why a great bike wouldn't be even greater with some new ideas.

BRAZUCA

Update #3: So, I sold the Trek 600 and I'm on my way to raise cash for my touring bike. I realized I would not have time to work in updating the '83 Trek and better let someone enjoy that classic ride. Anyway, I rode the 58 cm Surly LHT and it is a very nice fit and very nice bike, I could say the closest to a "Wow" factor so far. I'm looking at used bikes as well to see if I could score a deal and I found a bike that was not on my original list, I knew about it and liked it but never considered as new. Anyway, it is a 2008 Jamis Aurora in what appears by pictures to be in excellent shape, 59cm which should fit me fine and according to the seller, less than 1,000 miles on it (let's see, by the pics, looks pretty new) and asking price $500. It has Tiagra shifters on the break lever and Deore RD, Tiagra hubs and other Tiagra pcs, Alex wheels. I'm thinking about making an offer and for the price, this could be my bike. I check the dimensions and the wheelbase and chainstain are shorter than the others, but still pretty good and might fit my usage well, light weekend touring and everyday use. By the way, the frame is Reynolds 520, which I will need to check how it compares to others. Any thoughts or comments on the 2008 Aurora will be appreciated. I will also try to test ride a Surly Cross-Check as it was recommended on this thread. I have time, I need the bike for next Spring, therefore, buying a slightly used bike could save me hundreds of $$$ and a new Brooks B17

fietsbob

Given all 3 are using Taiwan and their contract builders, the possibility is they are builds
from same subcontract builder.. just meeting different supplied specifications ..

Bruce Gordon has another frame set that is Made in his shop..
there you have more input on custom variations..

and of course his racks..
I am still using the set i got, in the early 80's... none better.

staehpj1

It probably depends on where you tour and how long your tours are, but that list seems excessive to me for the majority of tourists. Maybe if you will be somewhere that nothing is available for very long distances that list may make sense, but it seems really excessive for anywhere in the US or Europe.

Brake pads... I used a set that already had thousands of miles on them to do the southern tier and would use the same ones for the next cross country tour. If you keep an eye on them you will have lots of notice before needing replacements. If you are really that worried, one set is certainly enough unless you will be a very long ways between opportunities to buy pads. I figure it is generally safe to assume that a set of decent quality pads will last the length of a trip like a Trans America on a normally loaded bike. The OEM pads that come on some brakes may only last a three or four thousand miles though. So yeah either keep a close eye on them, start a long tour with new decent quality pads, or carry two spare pads.

A cable set... If you start with cables in good shape I wouldn't bother with spare cables. You can always rig one derailleur to the middle of the range and still shift with the other well enough to limp along to the next bike shop. I guess in the mountains an extra brake cable isn't a bad idea but I don't carry one. If in doubt I'd just start the tour with new-ish ones. I will grant that they are light enough to not be a big deal.

Three tubes... Maybe in really hostile road conditions with long distances without shops, but it certainly is not a given that three tubes are a necessity on all tours. I have carried three tubes before, but have found that for many locations one is enough and for something like the Southern Tier in goat head country maybe two is a good idea.

Spare tire... Given that in 50+ years of bicycling I have never had a tire that couldn't be booted well enough to go a hundred miles, I'll take my chances with the remote possibility that I'll have to hitch a ride. There are a lot of other much more likely reasons that would happen than that I was lacking a spare tire.

Grease... Any place where grease is needed you can limp along for a few hundred miles with chain lube. Wheel bearings, headset, or other ball bearings will run fine with just about any lube. They will just need re-lubing much sooner. Clean and oil them up and stop at the next place you can get grease to repack them.

A laminated cheat sheet with 800 numbers and addresses for reliable sources of parts... Really? If I am somewhere I can get stuff delivered I can also research sources from there. If I have a phone I can research sources, if not I wouldn't be able to use the list any way. In any case I have always wound up buying from a local source when I did need stuff. Some times I may have had to limp to a local source and once I had to hitch a ride to a source. I will gladly take that chance rather than carry several extra pounds of stuff. In most places in the US or Europe there will be a bike shop within a hundred miles or so almost regardless of where you are. You may have to go off of you planned route to get to it, but that isn't the end of the world either.

If you take all that stuff then you start to get into a more where you wonder what else you should carry. In my experience a derailleur is more likely to fail than some things on your list. Pedals have been known to fail. The list could go on. So you need to draw the line somewhere. For me that usually means a minimal tool set, a pump, a few spokes, a few links of chain, a few ounces of chain lube a couple M5 machine screws, a spare tube, and a patch kit.

Bottom line... By your definition I guess I'll continue to plan to fail

linus

This is wrong in so many level. I'm too lazy to type so I'll let others do the explanation.

staehpj1

Agreed, except Southwest's fee was still $50 in August when I last flew with my bike and seems to still be listed as that today. When I last checked Frontier actually takes bike free if you don't choose their very cheapest ticket type and $20 if you do. So it might be worth buying the next higher priced ticket since you get some perks with that and the price winds up being pretty close in some cases.

You mentioned the inexpensive bike bag from performance... It has worked out well for me on a couple trips now. Pad it with some cardboard inside and it will hold my bike and most of my gear. I could get my bike and all of my gear for a tour in it and stay under 50 pounds, but would have to pack super carefully to make weight. After I add a generous bunch of cardboard and other padding I have thus far needed to add a small carry on bag (an 18 liter backpack), but not a second checked bag. The checked bag would be free, but I like that I can carry the bike bag and while wearing the backpack and not be super encumbered.

cyccommute 

You are right about Southwest, although $50 is a lot less than most carriers charge. I'll add another airline that doesn't charge excess baggage fees...Alaska Air.

DiscTruckerMF

Newbie here, i openly admit I haven't read all the posts but I've owned a nashbar aluminum touring frame and I currently own a disc trucker (didn't buy it stock, bought frame and built it up from lots of stuff I had kicking around) My honest advice to you is that if you are planning on building a commuter and not a truly loaded tourer to buy NONE of the bikes you mentioned!

They are all great bikes but I can honestly say that I commute daily on my surly and I like it but don't love it. Granted, I rarely need to carry anything of consequence on my commutes and if I did, then it would certainly shine but I'm seriously debating selling my disc trucker frame, not because I don't like it but because the geometry of a cross check would probably let me commute FASTER and I could still pretty easily lug gear around for my local commutes. The one loaded tour I did is probably going to be a once in a lifetime thing. I just have too many varied interests to even think I'll ever do another loaded tour greater than a weekend and for a weekend tour, I'm sure I could manage just fine with a cross check or similar more road styled bike.

My favorite bike was my nashbar touring frame. That is an awesome looking frame, it rode sweet, and I mated it to a carbon CX fork and put the nashbar mini front rack on it so I had limited ability to carry front loads. I had disc brake up front and v brake in teh back so it was best of both worlds. Buy it when nashbar has one of their many 20% off sales and you will get the frame fork combo for under $200 which is more than 50% less than the surly frame only option. Of course, if you don't already have a lot of other parts around then buying a whole bike can really save you funds but even still I would recommend buying the surly because it has far more cool factor and name recognition than the Trek and strip all the parts and sell the frame as new and at cost. you will easily find a buyer. Then take all the parts and mate it to the nashbar frame and the 250 bucks you save on the frame will pay for your brooks saddle, fenders and a rear rack that the surly isn't going to come with stock.

BRAZUCA

Update #4 (I think).OK, I have good news and first of all thanks for all the advices and comments. I reached a pricing agreement with the seller of the 2011 LHT black that I mentioned in the beginning of this thread. He bought it as a complete bike and it has XT RD and XT hubs, therefore, eventhough he sent to me the receipt that it was purchased on mid-2012, I believe it is an old stock 2011, not sure. According to him, it was used for only one touring trip (900 miles) and that's it, he moved back to Europe and left the bike for sale. The pictures show great, let's see how it will look when I take it to a test ride this weekend. I will not be doing long tourings on it, at least not in the near future, but of all the bikes I rode, I can't take the LHT out of my mind, I really liked the ride and style. Excited here and it is within my budget. Color is black, comes with a rear rack, other than that, all stock. Size is 58cm. I'm 6ft with long legs and arms, short torso and both the 58cm and 60cm fit me well (I tried both), but I believe that I have to stretch too much on a 60cm, therefore this bike is looking more and more as "the one". I will post an update and the mandatory pictures sometime this weekend if the deal really comes true. Thanks again.

NCbiker

Yes, the 2012 LHT has LX Hubs and RD where the 2011 has XT hubs and RD. I ride a 2011 58cm black LHT and love it. I think you will to, good luck!

staehpj1

Yeah I am happy that my local airport is a Southwest hub.

I didn't know about Alaska Air.

BRAZUCA

Thanks NCbiker, if everything goes well, I should have a "sister" bike of yours. Quick question, what is the front hub and derailleur on the complete LHT 2011? Also, the handlebar shifter is a Shimano? Thanks.

DiscTruckerMF

I'm 6'3 and my 60cm trucker is definately bigger than I would like, so it does sound to me like the 58 should be a better fit for you.

NCbiker

Both hubs are Shimano XT, FD is Shimano Tiagra, bar end shifters are Shimano SL-BS77.

kaliayev

You say a lot of funny things, but this nearly made me piss myself. Riding a LHT is like pushing a pig.