What's your tandem weigh?
02-27-13, 02:54 AM
#351
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I think it is great that Dave from Paketa takes the time to post here. Some of his ideas on bike design seem to conflict with others here, but I think many of them have merit. 130mm is a good idea for a performance tandem with a team that isn't too heavy, for the reasons he pointed out. Same with the right hand timing chain drive with a double chainring. We prefer a double and I am sure we aren't the only ones.
Some here seem to have drunk deeply of the Calfee Koolaid and will not hear or say anything critical of them but seem quick to give some other brands a hard time.
If I was in a position to be buying a top end tandem frame I would certainly seriously consider getting a Paketa.
Some here seem to have drunk deeply of the Calfee Koolaid and will not hear or say anything critical of them but seem quick to give some other brands a hard time.
If I was in a position to be buying a top end tandem frame I would certainly seriously consider getting a Paketa.
02-27-13, 11:03 AM
#352
enginerd
All this talk makes me want the Paketa even more. sigh.
Here's our tandem, which sees mostly touring duty. It's about 45lbs as shown. We've have it up to ~475lbs loaded with riders before. She's a trooper.
Here's our tandem, which sees mostly touring duty. It's about 45lbs as shown. We've have it up to ~475lbs loaded with riders before. She's a trooper.
02-27-13, 01:32 PM
#353
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I think it is great that Dave from Paketa takes the time to post here. Some of his ideas on bike design seem to conflict with others here, but I think many of them have merit. 130mm is a good idea for a performance tandem with a team that isn't too heavy, for the reasons he pointed out. Same with the right hand timing chain drive with a double chainring. We prefer a double and I am sure we aren't the only ones.
Some here seem to have drunk deeply of the Calfee Koolaid and will not hear or say anything critical of them but seem quick to give some other brands a hard time.
If I was in a position to be buying a top end tandem frame I would certainly seriously consider getting a Paketa.
Some here seem to have drunk deeply of the Calfee Koolaid and will not hear or say anything critical of them but seem quick to give some other brands a hard time.
If I was in a position to be buying a top end tandem frame I would certainly seriously consider getting a Paketa.
I think having a robust discussion of the choice of OLD along with the advancements of disc brakes is not giving a hard time. Dave will cheerfully provide a 135 or 145 mm OLD if the customer requests. I'm just discussing what might be recommended to customers who inquires about the pluses and minuses of various frame spacing. A 130 OLD is fine for a team as you describe, Paketa has proven it so, and it provides a cornucopia of wheel choices.
I'm looking to provide a perspective from Northern California, where harrowing descents abound, and diminishing the options for a disc seems like a bigger deal than elsewhere.
02-27-13, 03:07 PM
#354
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...proper wheel design (...) https://fairwheelbikes.com/cycling-bl...-overload.html
02-27-13, 03:21 PM
#355
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That is a good link.
02-27-13, 11:34 PM
#356
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We can build the frame for 130 or 135 mm, but the difference is so minor that the frame can accommodate either width. In fact, we just built our first tandem at 132.5 mm so it will work with either 130 mm or 135 mm wheels. The new owners will initially fit 130 mm wheels, but the frame has all the cable stops to add a stoker-controlled disc brake at some future date--along with a swap of the left-side rear dropout for a disc caliper-compatible version. Yes, disc-brake-compatible road wheels are 135 mm spacing (at this time, at least).
Converting from 145 mm to 130 mm spacing (or vice versa) is a more serious issue. We recommend to our customers that the rear triangle can be safely respaced once only. Anyone who's worked on older bike frames (uh, like me!) has probably respaced plenty of frames from 120 mm to 126 or 130 mm. It's pretty straightforward, so long as you know what you're doing and have the right tools to do it properly to make sure the dropouts are aligned parallel and symmetric on the frame's longitudinal axis. This only works with metal frames; carbon frames generally cannot be respaced.
Converting from 145 mm to 130 mm spacing (or vice versa) is a more serious issue. We recommend to our customers that the rear triangle can be safely respaced once only. Anyone who's worked on older bike frames (uh, like me!) has probably respaced plenty of frames from 120 mm to 126 or 130 mm. It's pretty straightforward, so long as you know what you're doing and have the right tools to do it properly to make sure the dropouts are aligned parallel and symmetric on the frame's longitudinal axis. This only works with metal frames; carbon frames generally cannot be respaced.
According to Bike Rumor
So, for bikes destined for discs, the 135 mm spacing appears to be the new road standard. You indicated that 135 mm is what you use for discs.
Is your SR equipped disc road bike 130 or 135 mm? That looks like a DT Swiss Disc brake hub, which is 135 mm.
Ok, you can fit a dropout onto a dropout-less 130 OLD frame (I'd like to see a pic of that). But you'd still have a 130 OLD frame, which is not the optimal width for discs. There are a lot more 135 mm non-disc hubs available than there are 130 mm disc hubs.
Maybe it is not clear that [discs are] the best solution for the majority of tandem riders. But, I think that it is clear that the future option of a disc is optimal for the majority now, and that in a disc-compatible 135 mm OLD frame.
If a team finds that it has a 135 mm frame and it is fine with calipers, there is very little downside. There are plenty of non-disc hubs and wheels available in 135 mm. But if the team discovers that with 130 mm that their the calipers are insufficient, then to retrieve their situation they may have to replace their frame to obtain the braking power they need. They are literally hemmed in by the 130 mm OLD. I don't see where the abundance of 130 mm road wheels makes this restricted choice of brakes worthwhile.
So, for bikes destined for discs, the 135 mm spacing appears to be the new road standard. You indicated that 135 mm is what you use for discs.
Is your SR equipped disc road bike 130 or 135 mm? That looks like a DT Swiss Disc brake hub, which is 135 mm.
Ok, you can fit a dropout onto a dropout-less 130 OLD frame (I'd like to see a pic of that). But you'd still have a 130 OLD frame, which is not the optimal width for discs. There are a lot more 135 mm non-disc hubs available than there are 130 mm disc hubs.
Maybe it is not clear that [discs are] the best solution for the majority of tandem riders. But, I think that it is clear that the future option of a disc is optimal for the majority now, and that in a disc-compatible 135 mm OLD frame.
If a team finds that it has a 135 mm frame and it is fine with calipers, there is very little downside. There are plenty of non-disc hubs and wheels available in 135 mm. But if the team discovers that with 130 mm that their the calipers are insufficient, then to retrieve their situation they may have to replace their frame to obtain the braking power they need. They are literally hemmed in by the 130 mm OLD. I don't see where the abundance of 130 mm road wheels makes this restricted choice of brakes worthwhile.
02-28-13, 12:21 AM
#357
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We can build the frame for 130 or 135 mm, but the difference is so minor that the frame can accommodate either width. In fact, we just built our first tandem at 132.5 mm so it will work with either 130 mm or 135 mm wheels. The new owners will initially fit 130 mm wheels, but the frame has all the cable stops to add a stoker-controlled disc brake at some future date--along with a swap of the left-side rear dropout for a disc caliper-compatible version. Yes, disc-brake-compatible road wheels are 135 mm spacing (at this time, at least).
02-28-13, 08:36 AM
#358
pan y agua
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Have you weighed it? Our Burley that started this thread, is the same bike as yours, and weighed right at 50lbs. Admittedly, ours had a drum brake, but it also didn't have the racks, and had lighter tires and pedals.
North of 40lbs, though, I'm not sure it much matters.
North of 40lbs, though, I'm not sure it much matters.
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
Last edited by merlinextraligh; 02-28-13 at 09:28 AM.
02-28-13, 08:42 AM
#359
enginerd
I did weigh it a couple years ago but I'm not sure how accurate it was considering yours is 50lbs. That sounds more like it. I'll have to throw it on a shop scale sometime.
I can't image how a ~28pound tandem would feel. On all but the steepest climbs we can keep up with the fastest rider on our Tues club ride. Someday we'll need to try a Paketa, Calfee, or similar.
I can't image how a ~28pound tandem would feel. On all but the steepest climbs we can keep up with the fastest rider on our Tues club ride. Someday we'll need to try a Paketa, Calfee, or similar.
02-28-13, 09:27 AM
#360
pan y agua
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^ Going from the Burley to our Co-Motion Robusta was night and day. 22lbs is a big difference. Also the Burley handles more like a truck, whereas the Co-Mtion handles more like a good single racing bike.
We struggled trying to do really fast paced group rides on the Burley, mostly due to the effort it takes to respond to attacks, and surges in the pace accelerating 50lbs of bike.
We debated for a long time whether it was worth the money to go to a high end tandem, given that the Burley worked fine. For us, it was defintiely worth the investment.
28lb tandem makes it much easier on fast, competitive rides.
We struggled trying to do really fast paced group rides on the Burley, mostly due to the effort it takes to respond to attacks, and surges in the pace accelerating 50lbs of bike.
We debated for a long time whether it was worth the money to go to a high end tandem, given that the Burley worked fine. For us, it was defintiely worth the investment.
28lb tandem makes it much easier on fast, competitive rides.
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
02-28-13, 06:44 PM
#361
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Thanks for the kind words. You know what? I love your Burley! Meant to be used, which is what it's all about. Even our latest bikes shown at NAHBS are designed for real-world riding, not just for display. I have a half-dozen bikes that most would consider for "display only." Guess what? I ride them all.
NAHBS is an interesting environment; great for checking out the latest trends in hand made bikes as well as just enjoying the camaraderie of utter bike geeks, but I do worry about the practicality defocus, but perhaps that's part of the appeal? If you haven't already read this, it's worth the time spent:
https://chainoil.tumblr.com/post/4344...the-nahbs-yawn
As long as I'm involved in this, it'll be, "form follow function." It's entirely possible to build bicycles that are simultaneously usable, durable, practically light weight, incorporate sound engineering, and are clean and attractive in their aesthetics. There are a few designers and builders who adhere to that balance. It's not the only approach, but it's our approach.
NAHBS is an interesting environment; great for checking out the latest trends in hand made bikes as well as just enjoying the camaraderie of utter bike geeks, but I do worry about the practicality defocus, but perhaps that's part of the appeal? If you haven't already read this, it's worth the time spent:
https://chainoil.tumblr.com/post/4344...the-nahbs-yawn
As long as I'm involved in this, it'll be, "form follow function." It's entirely possible to build bicycles that are simultaneously usable, durable, practically light weight, incorporate sound engineering, and are clean and attractive in their aesthetics. There are a few designers and builders who adhere to that balance. It's not the only approach, but it's our approach.
03-01-13, 10:27 AM
#362
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Thanks, Dave. I speak Russian and certainly prefer the Russian pronunciation. "Rocket" is a very appropriate name for your tandems!
03-04-13, 04:55 AM
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Pronouncing Dave's tandems as "Pa - ket - a" reminds me of foreign colleagues who refer to a restaurant as a "Pek - to - pah"!
The tandem connection is that we often ride to such a Restoran or Pectopah on the tandem
The tandem connection is that we often ride to such a Restoran or Pectopah on the tandem
03-11-13, 08:26 PM
#364
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One benefit of the pronunciation "pa ket ah" is that upon hearing it the curious can find it on the internet cause they'll get the spelling close to right.
03-11-13, 08:30 PM
#365
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Thank you very much for that link. Very enlightening!
Originally Posted by sixtiescycles 
...proper wheel design (...) https://fairwheelbikes.com/cycling-bl...-overload.html
Originally Posted by sixtiescycles ...proper wheel design (...) https://fairwheelbikes.com/cycling-bl...-overload.html
03-18-13, 08:21 PM
#366
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Not many tandems here have Di2 in their weight, so here is mine posted in 2 configurations.
1) Our normal "endurance event" riding configuration
Endurance configuration 24# 6oz
Paketa V2r medium, 44mm head tube, two tone powder coat
Enve 2.0 tapered road fork
King Kong headset mixed races 1.5” / 1.25”
Bushnell featherweight eccentric
SRAM Red 2013 brakes with swissstop BXP pads
Front Kinlin XR-300 18h on Alchemy ELF 110mm hub, CX-Ray spokes, KCNC Ti skewer
Rear Kinlin XR-380 24h on Alchemy ORC 130mm hub, CX-Ray spokes, KCNC Ti skewer
Michelin Pro 4 Endurance 25mm front, Conti grand prix 4 season 28mm rear this time of year in CO included in weight
Captain: Profile Design Canta SS on Ritchey WCS 120mm with aftermarket ti bolts including top bolt
Stoker: Profile Design Cobra base bars (bullhorn) on Bob Davis 215mm stem with aftermarket ti bolts
Seat posts 27.2 KCNC prolight 8000, 151g, trimmed for stoker to 120g
KCNC SC9 seat collars
Captain: Specialized Romin Evo Expert ti (the "evo" adds weight but good for 200mi)
Stoker: Selle Royal Respiro Ladies Sport (heavy, but good for 200 miles out of the stoker)
Dura Ace 2012 Di2 with Yumeya Long Cage adaptor (note the 2013 is lighter)
Bob Davis internal wire harness, Calfee seatpost battery
Gates CDX right side belt drive
Lightning cranks 170/165mm with compact rear spider and proprietary adaptor to gates sprocket
34t SRAM, 52t Praxis rings
SRAM XX 11-36 cassette
Captian: Exustar E-PM-28 ti / magnesium MTB pedals
Stoker: Speedplay zero ti
Nylon water bottle bolts including at un-used locations
Includes 3 Carbon bottle cages (stoker uses a camelback)
2) configuration 2 "race or hill climb competition" configuration:
Race configuration 22# 7oz
Same as above except as follows
Stoker on Ritchey WCS 140mm with aftermarket ti bolts stoker
American Classic 420 Aero wheels
25mm schwalbe Durano rear, Vittoria Rubino pro 23mm front.
Maxxis feather weight tubes
Captain: Selle San Marco ASP ti,
Stoker: Specialized Toupe expert ti
11-28 SRAM Red cassette
and for grins, here's our CX tandem:
3) Cyclecross configuration
Was 38# 14 OZ, NOW 34# after upgraded for gravel grinder racing with new American Classic all mountain rims on a rare set of American Classic 145 rear disc hub and AC mtn front hub. Rear rim has no rim brake surface. Schwalbe marathon cross 1.75 front tire and Sammy slick 2.1 rear. New old stock Ritchey WCS canti carbon fork.
[edit] 33# 3oz race ready for DK200 with lightning cranks, campy record 10 brake levers, and bob davis stoker stem (we snag this from the paketa with the whole KCNC seat post); saving about 1.5#, but with heavier rear tire Kenda small block 8 1.95 x 26.
Cannondale 1998 MT3000
Surley fixed tandem fork [superseded by old new stock ritchey WCS canti brake with 1" shorter crown to axle geometry than original suspension or Surley fork]
SRAM X0 rear derailleur with trigger shifter
SRAM XX 11-36
As of fall 2014 now with front derailleur with bar end shifter, 32t 46t ring
Modified right side chain drive
Sugino triple and Origin 8 165/170 single bike cranks [superseded by lightning]
Captain: Avener alum bull horns on unknown alum stem
Stoker: zipp carbon drop bars cut off and turned upside down [superseded by profile cobra base bar]
Trialtech 180mm stoker stem with aftermarket ti bolts [superseded by bob david]
Captain: Specialize Phenom ti on unknown alum seat post [superseded by KCNC 8000]
Stoker: Selle Royal Respiro Ladies Sport on shock post
Hydraulic cantilever front brakes
Retrofit rear disc, Bengal caliper, A2Z modified bracket to Shimano TT bar end brake lever
4) the 1967 Huffy Daisey all oringinal parts
+- 50#
reserved for display and to take down for fair weather ice cream rides
1) Our normal "endurance event" riding configuration
Endurance configuration 24# 6oz
Paketa V2r medium, 44mm head tube, two tone powder coat
Enve 2.0 tapered road fork
King Kong headset mixed races 1.5” / 1.25”
Bushnell featherweight eccentric
SRAM Red 2013 brakes with swissstop BXP pads
Front Kinlin XR-300 18h on Alchemy ELF 110mm hub, CX-Ray spokes, KCNC Ti skewer
Rear Kinlin XR-380 24h on Alchemy ORC 130mm hub, CX-Ray spokes, KCNC Ti skewer
Michelin Pro 4 Endurance 25mm front, Conti grand prix 4 season 28mm rear this time of year in CO included in weight
Captain: Profile Design Canta SS on Ritchey WCS 120mm with aftermarket ti bolts including top bolt
Stoker: Profile Design Cobra base bars (bullhorn) on Bob Davis 215mm stem with aftermarket ti bolts
Seat posts 27.2 KCNC prolight 8000, 151g, trimmed for stoker to 120g
KCNC SC9 seat collars
Captain: Specialized Romin Evo Expert ti (the "evo" adds weight but good for 200mi)
Stoker: Selle Royal Respiro Ladies Sport (heavy, but good for 200 miles out of the stoker)
Dura Ace 2012 Di2 with Yumeya Long Cage adaptor (note the 2013 is lighter)
Bob Davis internal wire harness, Calfee seatpost battery
Gates CDX right side belt drive
Lightning cranks 170/165mm with compact rear spider and proprietary adaptor to gates sprocket
34t SRAM, 52t Praxis rings
SRAM XX 11-36 cassette
Captian: Exustar E-PM-28 ti / magnesium MTB pedals
Stoker: Speedplay zero ti
Nylon water bottle bolts including at un-used locations
Includes 3 Carbon bottle cages (stoker uses a camelback)
2) configuration 2 "race or hill climb competition" configuration:
Race configuration 22# 7oz
Same as above except as follows
Stoker on Ritchey WCS 140mm with aftermarket ti bolts stoker
American Classic 420 Aero wheels
25mm schwalbe Durano rear, Vittoria Rubino pro 23mm front.
Maxxis feather weight tubes
Captain: Selle San Marco ASP ti,
Stoker: Specialized Toupe expert ti
11-28 SRAM Red cassette
and for grins, here's our CX tandem:
3) Cyclecross configuration
Was 38# 14 OZ, NOW 34# after upgraded for gravel grinder racing with new American Classic all mountain rims on a rare set of American Classic 145 rear disc hub and AC mtn front hub. Rear rim has no rim brake surface. Schwalbe marathon cross 1.75 front tire and Sammy slick 2.1 rear. New old stock Ritchey WCS canti carbon fork.
[edit] 33# 3oz race ready for DK200 with lightning cranks, campy record 10 brake levers, and bob davis stoker stem (we snag this from the paketa with the whole KCNC seat post); saving about 1.5#, but with heavier rear tire Kenda small block 8 1.95 x 26.
Cannondale 1998 MT3000
Surley fixed tandem fork [superseded by old new stock ritchey WCS canti brake with 1" shorter crown to axle geometry than original suspension or Surley fork]
SRAM X0 rear derailleur with trigger shifter
SRAM XX 11-36
As of fall 2014 now with front derailleur with bar end shifter, 32t 46t ring
Modified right side chain drive
Sugino triple and Origin 8 165/170 single bike cranks [superseded by lightning]
Captain: Avener alum bull horns on unknown alum stem
Stoker: zipp carbon drop bars cut off and turned upside down [superseded by profile cobra base bar]
Trialtech 180mm stoker stem with aftermarket ti bolts [superseded by bob david]
Captain: Specialize Phenom ti on unknown alum seat post [superseded by KCNC 8000]
Stoker: Selle Royal Respiro Ladies Sport on shock post
Hydraulic cantilever front brakes
Retrofit rear disc, Bengal caliper, A2Z modified bracket to Shimano TT bar end brake lever
4) the 1967 Huffy Daisey all oringinal parts
+- 50#
reserved for display and to take down for fair weather ice cream rides
Last edited by Turbotandem; 06-02-14 at 04:06 PM. Reason: upgrades to cx tandem
03-18-13, 08:34 PM
#367
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2005 Cannondale Road Tandem, size J/L completely stock 40 lbs. I plan on losing a couple pounds.
03-24-13, 06:10 PM
#368
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On our ride today, the only way between Los Gatos and Saratoga avoiding busy Highway 9 is to wend through residential streets, and to traverse the hidden passage to Montalvo Heights, and especially this pedestrian passage that is narrower than road handlebars. So, the bike has to be lifted above your arms through the sluice. This is something I wouldn't relish with a 45 lb tandem.
04-16-13, 08:31 AM
#369
Senior Member
After an upgrade to 10 spd Ultegra (from 9 spd), new Ultegra crankset (from Race Face), gates timing belt, integrated carbon captain bars and stem, ditching the rear disc and a much lighter stoker saddle the 2003 Speedster is down to an even 35 pounds. At this point it's our original Velocity Dyad wheels that are the main anchor but I'm not likely to change them anytime soon.
04-16-13, 08:34 AM
#370
Creamy pack filling
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On our ride today, the only way between Los Gatos and Saratoga avoiding busy Highway 9 is to wend through residential streets, and to traverse the hidden passage to Montalvo Heights, and especially this pedestrian passage that is narrower than road handlebars. So, the bike has to be lifted above your arms through the sluice. This is something I wouldn't relish with a 45 lb tandem.
04-16-13, 07:40 PM
#371
Full Member
Wondered about that spot. We usually use the other side of 9. Dave's, Montewood (quick walk next to dog watering station), etc.
04-17-13, 07:40 PM
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04-17-13, 11:01 PM
#373
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Here's some nice landscaping you'll see on the route. Gives you an idea of where the late Thomas Kinkaide (whose house is along the route) got some of his ideas.
04-21-13, 07:42 AM
#374
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Location: Upstate South Carolina
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Bikes: 1980's Spectrum 10 sp Campagnolo Centaur, 1990 Eddy Merckx 10 sp Campagnolo Centaur, Bushnell Tandem, Co-Motion Speedster Tandem
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Bushnell
I weighted our new addition, the steel Bushnell and with cages but not peddals it came in at 37 pounds which I thought was pretty good for a big steel bike.
04-21-13, 09:38 AM
#375
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Ft Worth, TX
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Bikes: Custom 650B tandem by Bob Brown, 650B tandem converted from Santana Arriva, Santana Noventa, Boulder Bicycle 700C, Gunnar Sport
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Questions:
Frame material Aluminum?
Is that a carbon fork with 1" steerer.
Looks like same side sync chain I assume to keep cost down?
Fairly small size?