PDX cycling report recommends removal of bike lanes
#76
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NA
Posts: 4,267
Bikes: NA
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times
in
7 Posts
PS: We already covered this upthread.
Some cities in Germany are moving some of their bikeways closer to the roadway
What you call a bikeway close to the roadway, I call a door zone free bike lane in a road peppered with "bikes can use traffic lane" signs.
And yes, this new "Munichista" infrastructure is perfectly correlated with a spike in mode share from ~8% to ~20% in just 5 years.
#77
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 1,144
Bikes: Schwinn Tourist (2010), Trek 6000 (1999)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
I mean for crying out loud, the Dutch cycling embassy has taken to posting tit for tat rebuttals to AFDC (German cycling federation) criticism of Dutch segregated infrastructure. If you are not aware that the AFDC has staked out an anti-cycle track and pro "right to the road position" you have simply not been paying attention.
I guess you also did not have the time to click on any of the links in Heine's blog post or the embedded links I posted previously. It must be very taxing being the resident bike forum curmudgeon.
A report on Munich's removal of cycle tracks from a PBOT staffer who is, if anything, someone who would tend to favor segregation:
https://livablestreet.wordpress.com/2011/11/07/182/
I guess you also did not have the time to click on any of the links in Heine's blog post or the embedded links I posted previously. It must be very taxing being the resident bike forum curmudgeon.
A report on Munich's removal of cycle tracks from a PBOT staffer who is, if anything, someone who would tend to favor segregation:
https://livablestreet.wordpress.com/2011/11/07/182/
lol
#78
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NA
Posts: 4,267
Bikes: NA
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times
in
7 Posts
PS: It will be very entertaining to see them try to do this in PDX.
Last edited by spare_wheel; 06-08-13 at 10:42 AM.
#79
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NA
Posts: 4,267
Bikes: NA
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times
in
7 Posts
https://lmgtfy.com/?q=ADFC+cycle+track
And since you may not trust a lowly blogger (Bike Quarterly publisher Jan Heine) let me provide you with a direct link to news story about the high-court case that has effectively repealed mandatory sidepath laws:
https://www.velonation.com/News/ID/24...n-Germany.aspx
The law was already de facto repealed by a 1998 court case which required an extensive and expensive certification process for any existing segregated infrastructure. Since this was not carried out virtually all segregated infrastructure was "decertified". The legal battles that led to this requirement were fought by ADFC chapters and were specifically designed to neuter mandatory side path laws.
#80
Been Around Awhile
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 30,005
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,562 Times
in
1,060 Posts
And since you may not trust a lowly blogger (Bike Quarterly publisher Jan Heine) let me provide you with a direct link to news story about the high-court case that has effectively repealed mandatory sidepath laws:
https://www.velonation.com/News/ID/24...n-Germany.aspx
https://www.velonation.com/News/ID/24...n-Germany.aspx
"Contrary to popular, world-wide believe, bike paths aren't always a good idea and aren't necessarily enhancing bike safety. The majority of side paths in Germany are very dangerous, especially if cyclists' speeds exceed five miles per hour. So for many cyclists, bike paths can be real death traps. Their dangers have been studied for many years and the latest numbers to come in were from Copenhagen. A thorough before/after study after building many bike paths came to the conclusion that accidents overall had increased."
I'll take my direct observation and personal experience gained over 10 years of bike commuting and travel while living in Germany over the results of your Web searches for blogs and out of context news snippets that meet your preconceived notions about cycling in Germany or The Netherlands.
#81
totally louche
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: A land that time forgot
Posts: 18,023
Bikes: the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 10 Times
in
9 Posts
The city club is no more a 'cycling advocacy' group than 'the people for the american way', yet both groups sometimes focus on bicycling.
It's funny, too, because from my read of German cycling, there's still plenty of mandatory use facilities and roads bicycle traffic is prohibited from. from your little blog 'redemption'
With the traffic code change of 1998, bike paths were only mandatory to use if they were marked with a specific sign
Is this your ONLY tool in the toolbox?
What you call a bikeway close to the roadway, I call a door zone free bike lane in a road peppered with "bikes can use traffic lane" signs.
And yes, this new "Munichista" infrastructure is perfectly correlated with a spike in mode share from ~8% to ~20% in just 5 years.
Last edited by Bekologist; 06-08-13 at 02:28 PM.
#82
totally louche
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: A land that time forgot
Posts: 18,023
Bikes: the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 10 Times
in
9 Posts
Lets just be clear. The city club was proposing to remove bike lanes on other streets after installation of a cycle track. This is not about replacement, its about removal of existing infrastructure.
PS: It will be very entertaining to see them try to do this in PDX.
PS: It will be very entertaining to see them try to do this in PDX.
#83
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlantic Beach Florida
Posts: 1,959
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3834 Post(s)
Liked 1,069 Times
in
807 Posts
On one hand I find these threads (removal of bike lanes for separate cycle tracks) very disturbing, but on the other hand I feel somewhat immuned to it, simply because I've always lived in areas far removed from these issues; seems these issues are always being talked about in big cities.
However, I've always said, if we cyclists demand separate cycle tracks and a very elaborate cycling infrastructure, that would pretty much give the people that want us off the roads the ammunition to kill our rights to the roads.
However, I've always said, if we cyclists demand separate cycle tracks and a very elaborate cycling infrastructure, that would pretty much give the people that want us off the roads the ammunition to kill our rights to the roads.
#84
totally louche
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: A land that time forgot
Posts: 18,023
Bikes: the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 10 Times
in
9 Posts
On one hand I find these threads (removal of bike lanes for separate cycle tracks) very disturbing, but on the other hand I feel somewhat immuned to it, simply because I've always lived in areas far removed from these issues; seems these issues are always being talked about in big cities.
However, I've always said, if we cyclists demand separate cycle tracks and a very elaborate cycling infrastructure, that would pretty much give the people that want us off the roads the ammunition to kill our rights to the roads.
However, I've always said, if we cyclists demand separate cycle tracks and a very elaborate cycling infrastructure, that would pretty much give the people that want us off the roads the ammunition to kill our rights to the roads.
oregon, new york state,Florida and california all have mandatory bikelane laws, and it hasn't stopped cities there from really increasing the bikeability of cities large and small in those states.
not that i'm for mandatory use laws. but, you can still get around by bike in Florida, right? even with the mandatory bike facility use law in place in your state? I bet if i moved back to Pensacola after 35 years i'd still be able to get across town on a bicycle.
Suggestions a massive network of facilities including bikelanes, cycle tracks, plain streets, bike boulevards, and pathways of a bike friendly Portland leading to a planned 20 percent ridership will somehow remove cyclists right to the roads is extremely far fetched.
Last edited by Bekologist; 06-08-13 at 02:53 PM.
#85
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlantic Beach Florida
Posts: 1,959
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3834 Post(s)
Liked 1,069 Times
in
807 Posts
Like I said, I feel immune to all this and Florida is a great state to ride in, so yes I can get around just fine and I'm not worried about the future of cycling here.
However, with respect to places such as Portland and I am commenting from afar, I admit that, so maybe I'm getting the wrong impression, but I'd be worried if I moved to Portland.
I know this isn't likely (if ever) to happen anytime soon. However, you got to agree that if a city, say Portland, spends tons of money increasing cycling infrastructure, in the way of separated track ways, then it would be much easier for people that want us off the roads to make their case. --- Don't you agree?
However, with respect to places such as Portland and I am commenting from afar, I admit that, so maybe I'm getting the wrong impression, but I'd be worried if I moved to Portland.
I know this isn't likely (if ever) to happen anytime soon. However, you got to agree that if a city, say Portland, spends tons of money increasing cycling infrastructure, in the way of separated track ways, then it would be much easier for people that want us off the roads to make their case. --- Don't you agree?
#86
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlantic Beach Florida
Posts: 1,959
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3834 Post(s)
Liked 1,069 Times
in
807 Posts
BTW, I'm not sure where this is, but I've never run across it. If it does exist, must be in a big city, like Miami. It's not in Jacksonville, I've been all over and never had a problem, even on roads that parallel bikepaths, which I never use.
Last edited by work4bike; 06-08-13 at 03:14 PM.
#87
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlantic Beach Florida
Posts: 1,959
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3834 Post(s)
Liked 1,069 Times
in
807 Posts
Bike lanes are a completely different issue and I completly agree with the mandatory bikelane use. But I've noticed that a lot of cyclists don't understand the law and think that any movement from the bikelane to the road is prohibited, it's not.
#88
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NA
Posts: 4,267
Bikes: NA
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times
in
7 Posts
Besides not taking seriously your references to blogs, I don't place much faith in the accuracy of an alleged news story about cyclists' rights, bloated with blatant editorializing about the alleged dangers of German and Danish bike paths:
"Contrary to popular, world-wide believe, bike paths aren't always a good idea and aren't necessarily enhancing bike safety. The majority of side paths in Germany are very dangerous, especially if cyclists' speeds exceed five miles per hour. So for many cyclists, bike paths can be real death traps. Their dangers have been studied for many years and the latest numbers to come in were from Copenhagen. A thorough before/after study after building many bike paths came to the conclusion that accidents overall had increased."
I'll take my direct observation and personal experience gained over 10 years of bike commuting and travel while living in Germany over the results of your Web searches for blogs and out of context news snippets that meet your preconceived notions about cycling in Germany or The Netherlands.I'll leave others with direct links to ADFC and government-funded summaries, studies, and position papers on sidepath laws and cycle tracks.
Summary:
https://www.uni-due.de/~sld68wi/Radwegesicherheit.pdf
Full text:
https://www.uni-due.de/~sld68wi/Radwe...heit_Druck.pdf
https://www.adfc.de/presse/pressemitt...vo-zum-1-april
Compressed pdf:
https://www.adfc-bw.de/texte/fdf.zip
https://www.bast.de/cln_005/nn_42640/...V,param=2.html
https://bernd.sluka.de/Radfahren/rechtlich.html
https://www.berlin.de/polizei/verkehr...671/index.html
And the famous 1987 Berlin police study that started the trend away from dutch-style segregation in germany:
https://john-s-allen.com/research/ber...%20papers1.pdf (via john allen -- with whom i disagree on infrastructure)
Last edited by spare_wheel; 06-08-13 at 04:31 PM.
#89
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NA
Posts: 4,267
Bikes: NA
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times
in
7 Posts
bekologist,
here are previous comments from this very thread that address your concerns:
https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...1#post15691453
https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...1#post15692311
have a nice day.
PS: there is no such thing as pdot.
here are previous comments from this very thread that address your concerns:
https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...1#post15691453
https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...1#post15692311
have a nice day.
PS: there is no such thing as pdot.
#90
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Eugene, Oregon
Posts: 7,048
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 509 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 9 Times
in
8 Posts
Originally Posted by Bekologist;15720307
oregon, new york state,[B
oregon, new york state,[B
Florida[/B] and california all have mandatory bikelane laws, and it hasn't stopped cities there from really increasing the bikeability of cities large and small in those states.
Perhaps there is some fatal flaw in attempting physical separation without accounting for intersections. Perhaps it also has to do with always forcing additional delays on cyclists so that motorists won't be "inconvenienced".
#91
totally louche
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: A land that time forgot
Posts: 18,023
Bikes: the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 10 Times
in
9 Posts
Portland doesn't have a department of transportation, sure, sure.....it's a bureau. sorry for mixing my acronyms.
https://www.portlandoregon.gov/transportation/
Last edited by Bekologist; 06-08-13 at 06:44 PM.
#92
totally louche
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: A land that time forgot
Posts: 18,023
Bikes: the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 10 Times
in
9 Posts
Despite which, spare wheel thinks he's going to see two meter wide bikelanes with 'bikes may use full traffic lane' next to them all across portland.
every street, aparently, as the idea of nuanced facility design seems to not yet have sunk in.
Last edited by Bekologist; 06-08-13 at 06:45 PM.
#93
totally louche
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: A land that time forgot
Posts: 18,023
Bikes: the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 10 Times
in
9 Posts
Like I said, I feel immune to all this and Florida is a great state to ride in, so yes I can get around just fine and I'm not worried about the future of cycling here.
However, with respect to places such as Portland and I am commenting from afar, I admit that, so maybe I'm getting the wrong impression, but I'd be worried if I moved to Portland.
I know this isn't likely (if ever) to happen anytime soon. However, you got to agree that if a city, say Portland, spends tons of money increasing cycling infrastructure, in the way of separated track ways, then it would be much easier for people that want us off the roads to make their case. --- Don't you agree?
However, with respect to places such as Portland and I am commenting from afar, I admit that, so maybe I'm getting the wrong impression, but I'd be worried if I moved to Portland.
I know this isn't likely (if ever) to happen anytime soon. However, you got to agree that if a city, say Portland, spends tons of money increasing cycling infrastructure, in the way of separated track ways, then it would be much easier for people that want us off the roads to make their case. --- Don't you agree?
Seeing bikes prohibited from all public roads without bike facilities in cities with high ridership is extremely unlikely!
when cities see 20-30 percent ridership, you'd better believe preserving access by bike becomes a paramount planning issue.
The idea that adding in roadway bike facilities that lead to increases in bike traffic will lead to bans on public travel by bike is extremely far fetched.
Will there be laws preventing traveling by bike in public in American cities that have robust infrastructure networks? Highly, infinitesimally unlikely.
Last edited by Bekologist; 06-08-13 at 06:42 PM.
#94
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlantic Beach Florida
Posts: 1,959
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3834 Post(s)
Liked 1,069 Times
in
807 Posts
Last edited by work4bike; 06-08-13 at 06:59 PM.
#95
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlantic Beach Florida
Posts: 1,959
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3834 Post(s)
Liked 1,069 Times
in
807 Posts
not when 30 percent of the population moves themselves by bike. people will recognize they need to get to their homes and the bakery on the side street.
Seeing bikes prohibited from all public roads without bike facilities in cities with high ridership is extremely unlikely!
when cities see 20-30 percent ridership, you'd better believe preserving access by bike becomes a paramount planning issue.
The idea that adding in roadway bike facilities that lead to increases in bike traffic will lead to bans on public travel by bike is extremely far fetched.
Will there be laws preventing traveling by bike in public in American cities that have robust infrastructure networks? Highly, infinitesimally unlikely.
Seeing bikes prohibited from all public roads without bike facilities in cities with high ridership is extremely unlikely!
when cities see 20-30 percent ridership, you'd better believe preserving access by bike becomes a paramount planning issue.
The idea that adding in roadway bike facilities that lead to increases in bike traffic will lead to bans on public travel by bike is extremely far fetched.
Will there be laws preventing traveling by bike in public in American cities that have robust infrastructure networks? Highly, infinitesimally unlikely.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/public...cle3724674.ece
I guess life just sucks
#96
totally louche
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: A land that time forgot
Posts: 18,023
Bikes: the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 10 Times
in
9 Posts
See? You're not worried florida's mandatory use law is going to lead to negative perceptions of bicyclists when they use the roads. (If i were living in florida, i would be.) Pretty sure it's a hot topic among the cycling advocacy and cycling clubs there, even if they're not trying to repeal it yet.
#97
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlantic Beach Florida
Posts: 1,959
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3834 Post(s)
Liked 1,069 Times
in
807 Posts
See? You're not worried florida's mandatory use law is going to lead to negative perceptions of bicyclists when they use the roads. (If i were living in florida, i would be.) Pretty sure it's a hot topic among the cycling advocacy and cycling clubs there, even if they're not trying to repeal it yet.
The law will not lead to any negative perceptions on cyclists. Only bad cyclists can do that.
I think the whole point behind the law is because some cyclists seem to think it's all right to ride in large groups with multiple cyclists abreast, tieing up traffic. That's just wrong and it's that behavior that leads to negative perceptions, not the law.
#98
totally louche
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: A land that time forgot
Posts: 18,023
Bikes: the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 10 Times
in
9 Posts
When I first posted to this thread I was addressing separate cycling track infrastructure, not bike lanes. As I said before I don't have an issue with the law, it makes sense. And I know many cyclists here and elsewhere don't like it, I've argued the point with a local club here in Jax.
The law will not lead to any negative perceptions on cyclists. Only bad cyclists can do that.
I think the whole point behind the law is because some cyclists seem to think it's all right to ride in large groups with multiple cyclists abreast, tieing up traffic. That's just wrong and it's that behavior that leads to negative perceptions, not the law.
The law will not lead to any negative perceptions on cyclists. Only bad cyclists can do that.
I think the whole point behind the law is because some cyclists seem to think it's all right to ride in large groups with multiple cyclists abreast, tieing up traffic. That's just wrong and it's that behavior that leads to negative perceptions, not the law.
mandatory bikelane law.
what - you think the motoring public has no opinion at all when they see cyclists in florida riding outside of the bikelanes for debris or where turns are authorized?
I wonder why sparewheel thinks bikelanes AND 'bikes may use full travel lane' are going to be needed in HIS portland?
you think mandatory use laws don't negatively affect public perception of cycling? ask spare wheel about that.
#99
----
After massively subsidizing personal automobiles for the better part of seven decades, it's no surprise that the default mode of transportation is personal automobiles. In light of the extraordinary damage this has done to our nation, just the projected medical costs of sedentary transportation over the next two decades is frightening, it is high time we made it less easy (or more difficult, if you like to look at things that way) to drive everywhere one's heart desires. It's actually amazing that there are any people who aren't addicted to cars in light of all the efforts to create the perception that the only way a person can be mobile is to get into a car.
Perhaps you think we are going to lose the battle for the hearts and minds of the corpulent folks in the suburbs if we dare to be both pro-bike and anti-car. Well, I think a lot of them, particularly the younger ones, have about had it with the subsidized car culture and are ready to move on. Certainly there has been some data this decade to indicate that we are very near to peak car, and certainly young folks are less inclined to even obtain drivers' licenses than older people. We're on the right side of history; this is no time to look for crumbs.
Perhaps you think we are going to lose the battle for the hearts and minds of the corpulent folks in the suburbs if we dare to be both pro-bike and anti-car. Well, I think a lot of them, particularly the younger ones, have about had it with the subsidized car culture and are ready to move on. Certainly there has been some data this decade to indicate that we are very near to peak car, and certainly young folks are less inclined to even obtain drivers' licenses than older people. We're on the right side of history; this is no time to look for crumbs.
You're preaching to the choir here. The only thing I take issue with is the "pro-bike/anti-car" thing. Polarizing the issue in this way makes for good internet banter and soundbites but ultimately just pits one group against the other in adverserial roles unnecessarily. Cars and bikes are both inanimate objects and while I tend to favor the bicycle as my primary means of transport I believe urban planning needs to be people oriented and not oriented towards things- even if I happen to like one of those things over another. This may seem like a small point to some but to me it's critical both in the design process and in the political/consensus building component.
#100
Senior Member
Lets just be clear. The city club was proposing to remove bike lanes on other streets after installation of a cycle track. This is not about replacement, its about removal of existing infrastructure.
PS: It will be very entertaining to see them try to do this in PDX.
PS: It will be very entertaining to see them try to do this in PDX.
The City Club committee did not propose removal of bike lanes. The closest it might be said the committee comes to proposing that bike lanes be removed, is in conceding that for various reasons, some bike lanes perhaps should be removed to favor other routes for bike use. It didn't refer to any particular street or thoroughfare from which bike lanes should be removed.
I'd be interested in knowing what ideas the City Club committee has towards reconfiguring a key section of Foster Rd in S.E. Portland, subject of ongoing PBOT project and neighborhood discussions, that could possibly result in reducing four main lanes of travel to three to allow room for bike lanes, or moving, curbs, trees and utilities to create a cycle-track. That's a specific, significant, difficult to decide upon project in terms of options, that people could use some support and direction on. The committee's studied opinion offered in regards to projects like that one could be important.