Bah Humbug

More faster than lower weight will speed him up uphill.

canam73

For people who aren't racing and aren't otherwise preoccupied with =/- a minute per ride it shouldn't matter.

But if you are, consider the charts here: https://www.rouesartisanales.com/article-15505311.html

And yes, I know they are old and riders aren't always going 50kmh.

But if you look at the spread on the aerodynamics chart between common wheels with 22-24 deep rims and mildly aero wheels of 38-40mm it looks like 5-10 watts can be saved. And again, that's at 30mph, but you will be gaining a portion of that all the time and more if you go faster. But essentially a constant savings of something. And this was with old aero wheels, I'll give Zipp and the like the benefit of the doubt that they have improved on this with Firecrests and the like.

Looking at the inertia chart, it appears watts saved are very closely tied to weight. And in comparing what might be a typical everyday wheel weight of 1750g to a climbing wheel of 1300g (full pound lighter), it looks to me as if the savings would go from about 5.5 watts to 2.5 for around 3 watts typically saved. That is during an acceleration from 0-30mph which doesn't happen often. While climbing your pace is going to be much more erratic, but I think we are still talking a watt or two loss here and there in direct loss to wheel weight. And with weight, there is not going to be any modern improvement. Grams are still grams and watts are still watts.

ericm979

You'd gain the most by training more/better to improve your FTP, and losing body fat. You can make much larger changes with those two than with bike components.

On climbs you can assume a steady speed. So losing weight from the wheels is the same as losing weight from the bike or body. Losing 1 lb from your body is free while losing 1 lb from your wheels costs $$$$.

But if you are only looking at wheels, then what I posted above is still in effect if you're slow on climbs- as a general rule aero saves more time than light weight wheels unless your course is uphill only. If you're considering a climbing heavy course like EC then I need to qualify the statement that the aero wheels can't be super heavy compared to the light wheels. But few people are doing EC (and intestingly enough most of the fast guys run deep section carbon tubulars there). Most people's "climbing heavy" courses have a lot less climbing then EC, which is about 200'/mile.

justkeepedaling

Trust me, I'm trying to lose that weight. I'm about 20 lb overweight, dropped 17 lb already in 2 months. I tend not to do sections with a lot of descending because I don't wanna wear out my Suntour brake pads. I have always been of the notion (after reading Cervelo's tipping point) that there is more to be saved with weight for me than aero. On descents and flats, I can get plenty aero at will (chin literally on stem if I want). And I have 8th on the local Strava descent despite softpedaling the last section due to a motorcycle tailgating me at 40 mph. My climbing speeds are increasing as I drop weight and I'm able to do more extended climbing. My system weight is in the region of 211 lb Something like a Zipp 202 is still pretty aero compared to the Mavics I have on now. And I think my rear wheel alone is in the region of 1250-1300 grams. Near 3 lb weight saving with an ultralight wheelset would be pretty nice on top of me losing weight myself

My gearing is also holding me back a little with a 42 chainring, but that's a whole other issue.

canam73

I think you could buy any other wheel you feel like and improve both weight and aerodynamics.

EnzoRWD

I would recommend some light Kinlin or Velocity rims, novatec/bikehubstore/ebay hubs, alloy nips, and good spokes. Should be able to build a 1400g wheelset for less than $500 with reasonable durability. Spend a bit on nice, light tires and tubes and feel the difference.

ericm979

You will not lose 3 lbs from a set of wheels. Even if you went with 1kg carbon tubulars. Few road bike wheel sets weigh 2350g. And of course you don't want to use tubulars for training.

Losing 3 lbs will not make you noticeably faster. Run the model on analyticcycling.com on your favorite climb and see.

Get some different brake pads and a modern crank so you can run reasonable gearing. That's much more important than light wheels. Brake pads are a safety item. Do not skimp there.

I <3 Robots

^^ I would start with the gearing. Cheaper than a pair of 202's.

Even if you were to get lighter wheels...they would feel faster at the initial acceleration...but once you settle in...they would make little difference.

Elduderino2412

Why not start saving money, and as soon as you drop that extra 20 lbs. you can buy a bike that weighs less than your 23 pounder? I set purchasing goals all the time. Right now i want some new Red shifters, so i can't get them till i can routinely average 21 mph on my daily neighborhood ride(only need around 3/10's of a MPH).
Also as you drop weight you wouldn't need clyde wheelsets.
That's just a system that has worked for me. It's probably not for everyone though.

dalava

This is only "slow as hell" on the internet... in real life, if you can do this for an hour (at ~230 watts and 75 kg), it's not bad.

NealH

If you're climbing in western NC or other eastern states in the Appalachians, a climbing wheel works the best because we have very few descents that are not switchbacks and technical. Maybe out west it will make sense to go with a relative lightweight aero wheel (like the Zipp 303 or 404) but not so much in the eastern mountains.

I'd still like to have a set of 303's though. Not that it will make any difference for me. They look good. Fashion.

Ebuzz

Not to hijack the thread, but I can't for the life of me understand why ppl say things like this. I ride tubulars every day and have for over 20 years now and have had 2 flats total. Am I missing something?

coachboyd

I have actually been planning something like this "What makes a good climbing wheel" as a blog entry. . .maybe now I'll have to write it.

We get the question all the time, and people think that basically going to a lighter wheel will make for better climbing. But there's a lot of other factors. Climbing means you are usually in one of your easiest gears, and when you do that you are putting the most amount of torque on the rear wheel (when you are in the biggest gears the torque is going to your chainrings). Radial spokes can not transfer torque, a spoke has to leave the hub in a backwards direction to "pull" the rim around. So, for a good climbing wheel I would make sure you have crossed spokes on both sides of the rear wheel. Some wheels do 2X on ds and radial nds. But the nds accounts for about 15% of the torque going to the rim, so by double crossing both sides you are making for a much better responding wheel.

The lateral stresses will also be a lot more when climbing. So a very laterally stiff wheel is important. This is where you may start adding a bit of weight, but it's worth it. If you have a crazy light but weak rim that is flexing all over the place, it's not going to be fast. There are lots of options for rims that are in the low 200 gram and below range but going up a hill they feel like a wet noodle. Adding some strength and a little bit of weight will technically make you slower (if you put out the same wattage on an hour long climb you may be slower by 0.5-1.0 seconds). This is also where having a decent spoke count for your weight is beneficial, extra spokes adds extra weight, but it also adds strength and durability. Wide flange spacing on the hubs is key for this as well as that helps a ton to increase lateral stiffness.

What goes up must come down and also on the flats (most of the time). The first time I did the Assault on Mt. Mitchell I was using a set of 1000 gram 20mm deep carbon tubulars. The first 75 miles of this event are fairly flat to rolling and the last 27 miles climb. When we were at speeds I found I was having to do so much extra work that by the time we got to the climbing I had expended a lot more energy. I felt great climbing but bonked before the finish. On the flat to rolling I was having to pedal a lot more than usual and when I did stop pedaling I lost the wheel in front of me much quicker. The next year I went to a slightly heavier, but more aero, stiffer, stronger wheel. The first section felt much better and I was able to climb much faster even though I was on a heavier wheel. I still bonked but 27 miles of climbing will do that (and I didn't eat enough). Nowadays for almost all of my hilly races I go with semi aero because the vast majority of time you are not climbing, it's a lot of flat to rolling stuff in between the climbs.

The exceptions are pure uphill time trials, but even then when you add 100-150 grams it's the difference of a couple seconds for an hour long climb. An empty water bottle weighs about 95 grams, and none of us can notice that vs. no water bottle when climbing.

canam73

Do you mean 300? Or 400?

ericm979

Because it is true for 99.5% of riders. 99.9% here.
Clinchers are so good now that there is no reason other than it's what I have been doing for 20 years to use tubulars for training.
See, proves my point.

surgeonstone

If you're like most cyclists in this country, your current wheels plus a 16 lb weight loss because, as we all know, you're too damned fat for this sport ( or hobby but that's fodder for another thread).

justkeepedaling

My front is a Mavic CXP22 with Formula hub (pretty heavy in and of itself) and the rear is a makeshift hybrid 7 speed solid axle who in god's name knows where it came from wheel that must weigh near 1700 grams by itself. According to the tune link from fairwheelbikes, you can get clinchers under 1000 grams. (no I am not buying them, this is all hypothetical)

My pads are not even half worn, they stop very very well. Did a 42 mph descent the other day. I just don't wanna wear them because I have no idea where I will find replacements (and am very lazy)

According to analyticcycling, I'd shave off 6.2 seconds or 30.9 meters. That's a pretty decent gain in my eyes. Just for the sake of a even more interesting question, if I went from my current bike to a decked out hyperlight bike like a Cervelo RCA with Tune wheels for example, I save 21.77 seconds or 108.5 meters, lol. And that's not even taking any aero into account.

Back to the original question, if I halved the drag coefficient of the wheels, I only save 1.2 seconds on the same course.

justkeepedaling

I could probably get a 7 lb difference quite easily with a new bike (saving for it when I get out of grad school). The strength is increasing significantly and the weight is steadily dropping. It will get there in time. I've never been one to be able to climb, even when I was 155 lb, but I used to duke it out with the UC Davis team's sprinter. And I'm many times stronger than I was then. In the end, I think it's my gearing that's killing me, but the weight loss would definitely help as well.

The extra muscle I'm building now to get my fat body over these climbs will come in useful when I'm 15 lb lighter

stilltooslow

Great post, and this is exactly what I was referring to in my OP. I greatly prefer a stiffer wheel even at the cost of less aero efficiency and a few more grams. When solo and in group rides, hammering the hills is one of the key variables I use in gauging my conditioning, and I can immediately tell how responsive a wheel is on the first part of the first hill. I don't race anymore, but train as though I still do, so my average speed on a given ride is less important to me than my climbing strength.

That said, I still want all of that strength and responsiveness to come in as light a package as possible!

Cyclelogikal

The ones with a motor on the hub!!!!

laserfj

Lol.

Garfield Cat

Get a laterally stiff aero wheel that's custom made.

ericm979

"must weigh" means you didn't weigh it so you have no idea what it actually weighs. And you are comparing to very expensive wheels that are not out yet.
Put some Shimano style pad holders on there.You don't say what the couse is. It is probably all up hill. If you read back you will see that I say that aero is more important than weight unless you are only racing up hill.

You're just arguing to argue, not trying to learn. Bye!

Carbonfiberboy 

Another person for aero and stiff over light here. As others have pointed out, what really saves time on the climbs is being able to hold wheels and/or hold them with less effort between climbs. My feeling is that aero spokes help when wheel sucking, but I have no way to prove that. Holding a wheel on the climb is helpful even at recreational speeds as long as you don't psyche yourself with it. I use aero bars on long rides when permitted and have been able to chase down stronger riders climbing low gradients against a headwind while down on the 'bars. Aero is good.

justkeepedaling

I'm pretty sure the Enve 1.25 exists. As does the Lightweight Obermeyer. Plenty of handbuilt wheelsets under 1000 grams too.

I'll take a picture of the wheel so you can get an idea whether or not this thing is a tank... Solid axle itself is already a huge paperweight. This is not a road bike wheel. It's a wheel from a hybrid. I'm not gonna take it off with a socket wrench when I already know it's heavy as all hell.



I have enough hills in my area such that the flat portions are just for recovery, then it's another hill. Aero is faster overall, but I'm pretty damn sure the title thread is BEST CLIMBING WHEELS. Thanks for assisting with the discussion, it's been very enlightening...
Considering all my segments are CLIMBS and I'm trying to get better at CLIMBING, I'm sure less weight wouldn't help at all.