Savas

I was in an LBS during a sale looking at new tires. Thinking of going with Specialized All Condition Armadillos. I've been riding the stock Huchinson 700 x 28 that came with my Jamis Coda. Bicycle loaded up for commuting can get heavy, but so far the Hutchinsons at that size are OK with the weight and reasonably zippy when the load is removed from the bike. LBS has Armadillos only in 25's or less in stock and the man told me that the construction of Armadillos create some drag and that I should get the smaller tire width, closer to a race tire. I was wondering if that was 1.) true - and - 2.) will the thinner tires make me more exposed to problems when I am carrying my full load to work? (my weight of 200 lbs plus maybe 20-25 lbs of gear). Thanks for any viewpoints.

biodiesel

dont know, how fast can an armadillo run?

MichaelW

Armadillos have full width kevlar protection, not just a central band. This gives a very stiff sidewall which does not flex well so has more rolling resistance.
I find that robust tyres work better at wider widths. If you fix all the other variables, then wider tyres have less rolling resistance than thin ones, but of course thinner tyres take higher pressure and have less air resistance so all is not equal.
In practice, I have found that a generous 28mm tough tyre is about best for all weather road commutes.

filtersweep

Armadillos are so stiff they almost run flat

One issue- they tend to run large for their size- a 23 seems more like a normal 25.

Also, they are heavy. I don't know if they really have much more rolling resistance, but I just removed a RUINED 'dillo and replaced it with a real tire and it feels like I've untethered the bike.

I don't think I'd buy another set-

tacomee

Any tire with great flat protection is heavy and stiff-- your bike will handle differently and will be slower.

If you want zippy-- go with a 2nd set of tires like some cheap Kendas-- light weight, super sticky. They also wear quick and flat easy, so remember your spare tube.

Don't believe any hype about a tire that *does it all* because there really isn't one.

CBBaron

Yup, tough tires are slower than light tires. Yup narrow tires are more prone to problems than fat tires, but Armadillos are tough enough that it really shouldn't matter. However if you have the room go for a fatter tire not only will you have less problem with pinch flats it will also ride smoother and be less likely to damage your rim when hitting potholes. 28mm seems to be a nice balance between fast and fat. The narrower Armadillos will feel like you are riding on rock tires but you are unlikely to get any punctures.
Craig

Brian Ratliff

To add to that, a 23c is larger, like a 25c, but the inside is more like a 21c, making it hard to get onto the rim. I've started to use Michelin (the $30 folding ones, forgot what they are called) and they have been running great all summer and into the fall.

milank

I have a 28 all-conditional armadillo and it looks significantly bigger than my front 28 conti gatorskin. It is a pretty slow tire, IMO.

When this one blows out I'm going to try a rear 28 gator. I didn't notice much difference changing from a cheap 26 kenda kontender to it.

bandjhughes

You may be right, but this kind of turns my understanding of rolling resistance up-side-down. I heard that rolling resistance is caused by the deformation of the tire at its contact point on the ground. A tire pumped up to a high psi will be stiffer, deform less, and therefore have a lower rolling resistance than a low pressure tire. I also heard about the lowest rolling resistance for any wheel used today is a steel train wheel. Thus I would think that a stiff Armadillo that doesn't flex much would have a lower rolling resistance, not higher.

Anyway, I ride on Armadillos 5 to 6 times per week in the desert Southwest USA where there are nasty thorns everywhere. After switching to Armadillos from Conti Grand Prix, the number of flats was greatly reduced but average speed wasn't affected a great deal. However, whenever I need speed (i.e., enter a race) I put on a second set of lightweight wheels and tires.

Savas

Well, I got them anyway, due to a great sale our local LBS had the past three days. Now, when I hear a snap, crackle or pop sound under my tire, I'm not as paranoid. Although, each time it happens, I just start thinking of breakfast and get hungry for some reason ....

pedex

ever checked out the difference tween radial and bias ply tires in a car, same way with dillos versus reg bike tires

A supple but high presure tire has lower rolling resistance(generally) than a super stiff tire because the more compliant tire "wriggles" its way across the road surface with less friction, sidewall flex helps with rolling resistance. Its a tradeoff and balancing act at both ends of the spectrum. Radial car tires and bias ply tires really show how this works if youve ever tried both.

CBBaron

Everything except your conclusion is correct. The problem with the stiff sidewall is not that is doesn't flex but rather that it does flex but it takes more energy to flex. The amount of flex is determined mostly by the tire pressure and size, the energy it takes to flex is mostly due to the side wall. The actual tread changes shape to a lesser extent so a heavier tread contributes less to rolling resistance than the sidewall. Thats why Gatorskins roll and ride better than Armadillos but people who have trouble with thorns and other sidewall attaching debris perfer the sidewall protection of Armadillos.

Craig

tacomee

Because I keep my tires pumped up to over 100 psi, I'm not sure I've ever felt any rolling resistance changes in my tires. Tires with good flat protection are way heavier and the bike has a different, slower feel to it, however.

The only time I really question using heavy belted tires is on wet roads-- the stiffness and the harder rubber used to prevent flats and promote long wear also makes the bike have a real greasy feel sometimes. Roadies who hammer all the time should be beware because putting on a set heavy commuter tires and riding hard in the first fall rain can cause a crash.

I wouldn't say belted tires are dangerous however-- it just takes a little getting used to them. I personally would rather not have the flats and wore out tires that plauge the nice performance tires. A big part of commuting in general is learning to ride within the safe limits that the bike and conditions allow, sp take it easy with any new tire at first.

cedo

With Armadilloes, does anybody know what the increased resistance/increased flat protection ratio is? I mean, if I get 60% fewer flats and only 5% more drag it's well worth it to me. But if I only get 5% fewer flats with 60% increased resistance, then it's not worth it and I would rather ride another tire. Simply test riding both of them is suboptimal because you can't provide an adequate control test. In part, the dilemma seems to be caused by the lack of testing and public information in the bicycle tire industry.

joejack951

Flat resistance varies from person to person. I have yet to get a flat using Armadillos (5000+ miles now, 3000+ on All Condition A's, and 1800 on Nimbus A's). To me, that's well worth the slight difference in rolling resistance. I definitely lost some speed when mounting them on my road bike but nothing earth shattering. I've since gotten used to them (read: stronger) and my speed is now better than with the normal tires.

A scientific test comparing the flat resistance of different tires would be very interesting. If someone gave me all the tires, I'd certainly be willing to conduct said test It would require a bunch of different standardized hazards (glass, thorns, shells, potholes, nails, etc.) which may be tough to do and is probably the reason why no such test exists (to my knowledge). So you are left with the experience of others and 90% of the Armadillo reviews I've read are satisfied people. Schwalbe Marathons are another tire with excellent reviews and I'd try them out if Armadillos ever start giving me problems. But with their current track record, it may be a while before that happens. At 3000+ miles with no flats, when I do get a flat that tire will just be thrown away and I'll mount a new one that I have waiting. I've gotten my money's worth out of the originals ($0.012 per mile cost including tubes) already so I won't technically even count the inevitable flat as a flat. But who knows, maybe they'll wear down to the cords first.

cerewa

I don't have a specialized-brand tire, but here's my experience with a Bontrager tire that is similar (after adding a tuffy tire liner for good measure) :

rolling resistance is "so bad," that for every couple hours of riding i'm an extra 30 seconds slower.

flat resistance is good for 85% fewer flats, or better. Been punctured by a nail once, used to get flats all the time.

I think that the time I've saved by not having to fix flats is far more than the time I could have saved by having a faster tire. I also appreciate that my commute times are more consistent. As far as I'm concerned, kevlar-belted tires are a super product for bike commuters.

froze

The rolling resistence of the tire has more to do with it's weight. The Armadillo is a heavy tire but at least 100 grams lighter then Schwalbe Marathons. I used the Armadillo for about 4 years and about 20,000 miles and NEVER had a flat, except from a faulty tube and a bald tire with cords showing. I even rode the bald tire for 5 miles FLAT to see what would happen and the stiff sidewalls kept the tube from getting ate up (in fact I patched the tube and used it again) and the rim was not damaged. I lived in the Mojave Desert Area of Calif where goatheads killed and destroyed over 15 other brands of tires.

Savas

Come to think of it, I am not speeding top-end during my commute. I am carrying a lot of heavy gear each day. In the end, the allure is that I don't want flats to make me late for work.

joejack951

Well between Froze (mostly) and I, we've got 25,000 flat free Armadillo miles. Sounds like the tire for you.

Treespeed

Hung an Armadillo on the rear wheel and it feels like I've got a brake rubbing. But at this point it's better that I go slower and arrive consistently at work.

Revtor

this got real long sorry.
heres the conclusion pasted from below: "Flats suck, get the tough tires. armadillos, gatorskins or hardcases. man-up and get stronger legs while you're commuting. Leave the 23's for your weekend speed bike"

Tire drag (rolling resistance) is so miniscule compared to wind drag (air resistance) that unless you're comparing tires on a top racer, in top conditions, in top shape, with exactly repeatable conditions its not gonna make any significant difference. Just keep your tires pumped up. And try to keep your energy levels up, this has alot more to do with your performance than "tire drag". Im calling placebo effect on all of you. : ) Wear a form fitting jersey/shorts and you'll gain alot more speed through improved aerodynamics. Or make your riding position more aero.


Cerewa states that the resistance was "so bad" that it caused him to be 30 seconds slower every few hours of riding. This couldn't be a serious comment!!?! I believe the comment was meant tongue in cheek, but this tire/time relationship sounds about right to me, and for a commuter, getting a flat SUCKS. Belted tires are worth it. Even if you arrive 2 minutes later (gasp!) every ride because of your "slower" tires. The day you get a flat and are 15 minutes late (maybe an hour!) and arrive with black hands you're gonna wish you had gotten the heavy duty tires.

Here's my science:
Heavier tires only slow down your rate of acelleration, and are a tiny bit more work to ride up hills. Heavier tires will cause your maximum top speed to be a tiny bit lower. Heavier tires will wear down brake pads faster (tiny tiny tiny bit). Basically what you ate that day, or if you took a dump or not that morning will make more of a difference. Leave your shoes at work for example to lose more weight. Dont worry about an extra 450 grams (1lb) of tire weight when youre carrying 20 extra lbs to work.

y'all should read Bicycle Science. MIT press, alot of boring nitpicking about stuff like this in that book. aerodynamics, resistance of tires, bearings, the cool image showing contact patches of bike tires vs train wheels etc.. get the real info rather than guessing here on board. What I do remember is that most rolling resistance is from the tires rolling over the roughness of the road. So a 300 PSI tire ona bike with a rider on a real road would have more rolling resistance than a 150. If the tire can conform a bit to the bumps then you're not effectively raising the whole bike and rider over each bump every time. Id get my copy and lay it all straight for you, but... its been a long day and im tired, I dont feel like digging through an engineers ************ to find the relevant sentance. the numbers are all so tiny anyway. I was hoping to read about something to make my riding better, but came away marveling at how anal the authors are and how great our machines are already. For me I think the biggest improvement I could make to my machine is by wearing aero clothes. (nothing flapping)

Flats suck, get the tough tires. armadillos, gatorskins or hardcases. man-up and get stronger legs while you're commuting. Leave the 23's for your weekend speed bike.

~Steve
now im real tired. of tires.

oh yeah, the original post. "Armadillo construction" wont add drag unless this type of construction ads layers that rub against eachother (creating heat) I believe that the tires layers are all bonded together and so no additional drag is created. Tire pressure and aerodynamics would have more to do with drag. Go tubeless if you want an extra .1 percent less drag.

euphoria

This is completely vapid and vain but the red lips of the 'Dillos look damn cool against my sleek black frame.

Autoworker

I've been using Schwalbe Marathon Plus tires on my commuter bike for about a year and a half, now, and have had zero flats. Don't even know why I carry a pump and repair kit anymore!

Marathon Plus are the ones with the blue "puncture guard" layer inside the tire. Their max inflation pressure is 70 psi. They roll pretty good, as far as I'm concerned, especially compared to the studded knobbies I use in the winter.

froze

By the way, Team Action Sports out of Bakersfield Calif with team captain Kerry Ryan won the 4 person RAAM race last year riding the entire race on ARMADILLOS!!!! I knew the Captain because he owned a bike shop (and other sports) called Action Sports in Bakersfield where I lived for 8 years.

FergusF

Just got a set of Marathon Plus to replace my Tioga City Slicks (after 2 punctures in one day, causing me to be late to work - I'd had enough!). The ride seems slightly harsher but is still pretty plush, and I haven't noticed a difference in rolling resistance. What I do notice is the Marathons seem a lot grippier, giving a lot more confidence on wet roads.

I've also used Armadillos on another bike for over a year, with no punctures - didn't really notice a difference in rolling resistance from the previous tyres (Continental somethings, again got tired of fixing flats!)

So I agree with previous posters - the puncture resistance of belted tyres more than makes up for any slight increase in rolling resistance.