DinoShepherd

The beta part relates to Betamax.

Doesn't really matter how awesome the product may or may not be , the market has moved on.

Bob Dopolina 

I think its funny how you need to be of a certain age to even understand what the heck that means.


I agree that the market has moved on but I don't think B30 has in any way been abandoned. I think some of that moving on is really segmentation in disguise.

My real point was that BB30 was a mature technology well before it spread from Cannondale onto other brands. What is more likely is that it was new but only to the shops dealing with it who were not already experienced with the ins and outs of BB30 because they weren't Cannondale dealers.

SundayNiagara

Beta is still the superior format. Sony got greedy & the rest is (VHS) history.

DinoShepherd

True all that Bob. And I do hope that my quote didn't imply any sort of snarkiness on my part.

What I am seeing, from my little teeny, tiny corner of the industry, is that however good or bad BB30 may be, the major players seem to be stepping away from it. But you may perhaps have more insight than I.

Bob Dopolina 

No snarkiness at all! I thought it was funny.

I agree, people are moving away from BB30 but the real question is why? Is it because it is inherently flawed as a design? Maybe. Is it because shops can't seem to deal with it making the design look bad? Also, maybe.

Is there also a free for all going on with different parties trying to develop proprietary designs to their advantage? Some, I believe. Are there others simply trying to innovate now that BSA no longer has a strangle hold on design and frame designer can take advantage of materials that are much. much newer than those used during the reign of BSA? Again, I believe this is true for some.

Honestly, I think there are a lot of factors at play here that are influencing which way designs are flowing.

I think what is truly interesting is that Shimano no longer has the dominance it once did to simply dictate their design to the market and FORCE it to follow suit or be rendered obsolete. Giant has a very cozy relationship with Shimano so they are in lock step but if Giant isn't building your bikes then you can choose what you will.

Eventually we will have to settle on a couple of standards but I don't think we will ever go back to one.

DinoShepherd

See Bob, now you are hitting the real points.

From my (way too long) experience riding and racing (I will make an admission) I can't tell the difference in feel between external bearings, any press fit system or even square taper in terms of performance. I also can't tell the difference between tapered headtubes, straight 11/8 and old school cup and cone. They all feel pretty good. And really, I have just as much fun and am just about as fast on a 26", 27.5 or a 29" MTB. There I said it...


I am even beginning to suspect that it just may be that the bike companies are exaggerating any benefits of a "standard" change just to sell more bikes.

Since you mentioned Giant... They are absolutely crushing it this year and their 2015 lineup is just sexy. As for Shimano, I remember when you bought a whole groupset. Everything. From shifters to cranks to brakes to seatpost. It was all Shimano or Campy or even Suntour. Of course, you had the obligatory Cinelli bar and stem. Now all the component manufacturers have are the shifters and derailleurs. That's it. Everything else can be sourced somewhere else and the consumer perception is that its just as good.

Cheers!

Campag4life

This is the thread that just keeps on giving.
For comments above said about bike makers moving away from BB30...would love to hear who? And what are they moving to?
Certainly not Specialized. For 2015, Specialized just moved 'to' BB30 for the highest level S-works frame...away from their narrow version of PF30. No more Delrin bushings for Specialized.
So would love to hear who exactly is moving away from BB30..or derivatives. Virtually every top bike company has a press fit BB of some ilk...many wide shell designs as well..but pretty much all are press fit...maybe one or two exceptions but certainly the vast majority of top bike brands.

Bob Dopolina 

Giant. Trek. Cervelo.

DinoShepherd

As for your first sentence, the answer is, of course, nobody. All the manufacturers are moving towards, or have already moved to some sort of integrated or press BB. Not even a discussion.

If the question is how many bikes are going to be using BB30 in the future, which is the topic of this thread, you know the answer to that. Which is that it is a declining trend.

What brands aren't using it? You know, small brands like: Giant and Trek and Raleigh. I am not familiar enough with Specialized to comment on their planning on way or the other.

I don't care about BB30 or any other standard one way or another. Matters to me not. They are all fine to me. The industry trends interest me and they are quite clear on this subject. Press BBs are here to stay, BB30 losing significant ground to other press systems, no matter how good or bad it may be.

rpenmanparker 

If press fit BBs are a growing trend, but BB30 is declining, what exactly should be expect to see coming up? PF30 seems to have peaked as well based on what we read in this thread earlier. What press fit standard will be looking at in future?

bikerjp

Putting aside for a moment the various issues discussed with BB30, how come a plastic retainer (e.g. PF30) isn't an issue? All the work done to make a BB stiff and then put in a piece of plastic to hold the bearings seems a step backwards. Not looking for an argument, just wondering anyone can shed some light on that. Thanks.

Campag4life

There is huge conflation going on here. Just because a BB is wider...it isn't separated from BB30 design challenges. Also many BB's in the industry now are some derivative of PF30...including wide shell PF30. Specialized just voted that PF30 is more problematic that BB30 which I agree with technically because a bike owner has to control 2 press interfaces versus one and further not only is acytal more difficult to glue because it inherently more lubrice but also acytal doesn't have the same surface hardness to keep BB30 bearings in place. That is why Specialized dropped it. And still many BB's have PF Acytal bushings.
With exception of a couple of outliar threaded BB's out there...the whole race bike industry is press fit and to think otherwise is wrong.

Campag4life

You are suffering from Bobnesia. Just because a given proprietary BB isn't verbatim BB30, doesn't mean it doesn't have the same design challenges.
They are pretty much all press fit of some incantation...most but not all with BB30 bearings.
A ridiculous discussion.

Campag4life

A footnote which will go over the heads of most here is....BB30 or wide shell variants are alive and well and simple to install, cheap to replace and reliable. PF30 is morphing a bit...and this encompasses the wide shell variations of PF30 as well. They are changing because most have better luck with an 'integrated bearing' PF30 BB versus separate BB30 bearings pressed into PF30 bushings which are in turn pressed into a 46mm I.D. virgin carbon hole. Yes you can get an Acytal like Delrin to stick to a hard carbon shell with Epoxy just fine...it won't creak...but the problem is getting BB30 metal bearings to stick to Acyetal and not creak. That is why Specialized moved away from it...that and PF30 is more challenging from a tolerance and bearing alignment standpoint. So PF30 is morphing in that many BB's are now available with captured bearings where BB30 bearings are integrated into Acytal cups which are in turn pressed into a virgin carbon BB shell as subassemblies on each side. These tend to work quite well in fact...especially if bonded with a low shear strength epoxy. They pretty much can't creak. But previous PF30 resulting from pressing BB30 bearings into Delrin bushings is a bit of stretch technically in terms of reliability as BB30 bearings don't tend to want to stay seated in plastic cups.
HTH

Bob Dopolina 

Giant is the largest manufacturer of bikes in the world. Trek is also a significant player. Cervelo less so but they have market share that can't be ignored. Together they constitute a significant portion of the market. I could add more but I chose those off the top of my head in direct response to the question asked which was, "who was moving away from BB30?"

I guess you could be literal and note that none of these previously used BB30 previously and therefore have not abandoned it but the point I was making is that people aren't moving 'to' BB30 en masse in that a significant portion of the market is moving in another direction.

I do believe that press fit is what is happening now regardless of iteration. It is also true that if you are talking to a frame factory the standard options are BSA and BB30 but newer molds will also be able to produce PF30. Trek and Cervelo are proprietary and for the Shimano spec you would have to ask if it were possible. Not all open molds will offer this option.

That is telling in that it demonstrates what factories are willing to invest in which show what they believe will be in demand in the future. You can design anything you like if you are paying for the molds but I base my views on what is on offer a la carte.

Campag4life

Surprising. You still don't get the point of distinction. There is no difference between BB/PF30 and the BB's of the frames you mention other than shell width. BB shell width is nebulous in the scope of discussion. The point is pretty much all BB's now have press in bearings. You said so yourself. Slight vagaries are incidental in terms of design robustness, though non Acetal Press Fit BB's aka alloy cup press fit bearing BB's tend to be easier to set up and most reliable especially compared to using loose bearings with Acytal bushing BB's.

Bob Dopolina 

I believe I do and, as you mentioned, said as much. I agree with you in that I believe Press fit, in some form, is here for the foreseeable future but there are considerable variations in how the bearings are captures that goes beyond shell width.

I think this is the point of distinction and so puts BB30 in a specific category. Can we agree on that?

The point of the thread was specific to BB30 and my original point was in response to your point suggestion that manufacturers were moving back to it as a standard. I suggested otherwise and gave examples.

I also stated how it has become a standard for open mold frames along with BSA but newer, higher end open mold frames will also offer PF30 as an option. I think this is a lagging but key indicator on the overall direction of the industry in terms of which standards are or are not being adopted.

Campag4life

And will restate, the bike company that just won the TdF and had more bikes in the pro peloton than any other brand is moving 'toward' BB30 as their standard and abandoning their version of PF30 and there are many variants of BB30 out there that only vary in shell width and the rest use an acytal press fit bushing or integrated bushing/bearing and most use bearings common to BB30.

So BB30 isn't going anywhere...nor are the legions of wider versions with the same ilk of bearing bores including Trek you mentioned as moving away. Trek isn't...their version is just wider.

For those interested below is a good read to compare some of the tradeoffs. The industry of BB's out there including aftermarket conversions is quite staggering really. Most vary only in degree...slight shell width difference or a lot. Slight bearing size difference. Alloy bearing cups or carbon. Pretty much all press fit.

Also there is tremendous irony if not downright deceit in the marketing of BB type. Take Specialized who just abandoned their version of PF30 using press in Acytal bushings. As the article below points out PF30 frames are the cheapest to manufacture because of the forgiveness of tolerances and no need to insert mold a machined BB30 cylinder into the mold. This also reduces reject rate and scrap. But Acytal is a crappy bearing bore compared to alloy is the bottom line. Plus you have 2 presses instead of 1. So basically Specialized charged a lot more for a poorer tolerance frame that is cheaper to manufacture...until 2015 when they went to BB30 across the board btw giving up their market diversity between Pro and S-works level frames and no doubt their marketing department and bean counters at Specialized were fit to be tied...but Specialized no doubt had higher customer dissatisfaction with their version of PF30 as BB30 tends to be more reliable. So bottom line was Specialized was charging more for a frame marketed as their most exclusive frameset which had a crappier BB what cost them less to manufacture. I think many that live or lived with that BB...and there are many viable work arounds to PF30 including integrated bearing solutions and even regression back to English threaded via press in BSA sleeve...felt buyer's remorse because they couldn't either tame it or their bike shop couldn't and meanwhile Specialized kept revising their service manual installation method. Bottom line for those who own PF30 or derivative is, best solution is to capture the bearing mechanically in the molded Acytal cup aka purchase combined bearing cups and then you have a single bearing/cup sub assembly to press into the frame and only one press to be concerned with as with BB30. Biggest mistake Specialized made was not getting in bed with a top BB manufacturer as they sold Acytal bushings and bearings 'separately' and not an integrated solution and this is big problem because metal bearings don't like to stay seated in Acytal bushings unless mechanically captured as with most PF30 BB's out there.

BB type comparison:
Complete guide to bottom brackets - BikeRadar

Trsnrtr

I don't know crap about BB standards but my wife's 2014 Specialized Amira Expert has given my bike shop fits with its rocking bearings and clacking noises. This is a pro shop with with extensive experience. They have now ordered a Praxis system and a new Ultegra crank at no charge.

Anecdotal, I know, but goes to show a problem with some frames and newer style inboard bearings. Another anecdotal situation is that at the same time that my wife's Amira was being worked on, a 2012 Tarmac was getting a refitting of the BB bearings for rocking and tapping, also. They managed to cure it with new bearings and refit.

Bob Dopolina 

I'm not sure if I am reading you correctly in that you seem to think I am suggesting that BB30 is being phased out my anyone. If so, I have clearly stated the opposite several times.

I think the difference is that I'm not willing to lump any standards together as the constituent parts are not compatible nor interchangeable making them a different spec.

When I say BB30 I meany OMLY BB30 and nothing else.

As for charging more fir a frame that is cheaper to make there will be some tooling cost (nothing earth shattering) and there may be other factors driving the price increase such as the ruse of the US dollar to the TWD and material shortages we are now experiencing in Taiwan as more factories leave China and move back to Taiwan.

Fox Farm

Exactly!

Campag4life

In bold, then you miss the point of the thread. If BB30 is crap which is the thesis of this thread which is untrue, then all the BB's you aren't willing to lump together are crap as well. Why? Because even though there are modest differences created mostly for proprietary advantage by bike makers...more like proprietary marketing without advantage, the designs are so similar then they are all crap which makes all the top bikes sold crap which is crap in of itself. That is point I believe you repeatedly miss. You are splitting hairs. There is nothing about a Giant BB that sets it apart from a Trek BB or a Specialized BB in terms of function even if the parts are not all interchangeable. The article I linked discusses some of the tradeoffs but the designs are fundamentally all the same.

Campag4life

A pretty typical reaction from an average bike owner with limited knowledge of this stuff. Once bitten twice shy. Anecdotal yet undeniable and common I will add. Your so called pro shop just doesn't know how to install one properly. But the Praxis BB30 conversion BB with outboard integrated bearings and Ultegra crank will be rock solid so your issue will soon be behind you. BB30 is good but only with a proper and will add simple installation practice.

Campag4life

You sure don't have to break the bank with Phil when Ultegra or DA threaded BB's are 1/4 the cost but yes, Phil makes great BB's as they should be for the jack.

rpenmanparker 

Funny how sometimes the most "pro" shops can also be the most stubborn and recalcitrant. [MENTION=2795]Trsnrtr[/MENTION], did you possibly tell you shop how they were supposed to do the job as directed by knowledgeable folks here? Were they too "expert" to follow your instruction?