2014 Rolf tandem wheel feedback wanted
07-16-14, 10:03 AM
#51
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A taller profile provides more strength and the stiffness is more noticeable on tandem wheels as they hold their shape better during rotation where the contact patch meets the road. The duty cycle (1 revolution) on a tandem puts a lot of pressure onto the rim, and if that rim flexes too much it stresses the spokes excessively... meaning failure. Bad1's spoke failure with C2 rims is something I would expect, even on a set of fairly new tandem wheels when combined with a rim that flexes vertically a bit too much under tandem loads.
Regarding weight of the Kinlin/BHS (495gm), this is rim material. Rim design/engineering is one thing, but there is a point where removing too much material creates a flimsier structure. This is why Jason @ Fairwheel recommended not to use the Pacenti SL23, spoke bed too thin, rim too thin for tandem duty cycle. I bought a couple spare BHS rims "just in case", but the joke here is that I might not ever get to use them unless I build up another set of wheels... we'll see.
The Velocity Aileron shape looks interesting. As much as I like lightweight stuff, 460gm alloy tandem rims make me nervous. My comfort level is ~500gm.
As far as Rolf bashing... yeah, I wouldn't use those on our tandem, but having great success with the Vigor Alpha on my single as they are stiff and have a great rim profile (stable in crosswinds) plus I get them discounted from our team. Criterium corning with the Vigor A has been awesome.
Regarding weight of the Kinlin/BHS (495gm), this is rim material. Rim design/engineering is one thing, but there is a point where removing too much material creates a flimsier structure. This is why Jason @ Fairwheel recommended not to use the Pacenti SL23, spoke bed too thin, rim too thin for tandem duty cycle. I bought a couple spare BHS rims "just in case", but the joke here is that I might not ever get to use them unless I build up another set of wheels... we'll see.
The Velocity Aileron shape looks interesting. As much as I like lightweight stuff, 460gm alloy tandem rims make me nervous. My comfort level is ~500gm.
As far as Rolf bashing... yeah, I wouldn't use those on our tandem, but having great success with the Vigor Alpha on my single as they are stiff and have a great rim profile (stable in crosswinds) plus I get them discounted from our team. Criterium corning with the Vigor A has been awesome.
07-16-14, 10:52 AM
#52
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Not necessarily saying it's better or worse. I haven't built up any C2's yet, but have built a few dozen Ailerons. I'm really, really impressed with how easily they build. I will say that I would say we took the aerodynamic tuning of the rim quite seriously. Instead of using a traditional "A" shaped section, the widest point of the rim is not actually at the bead, similar to the design of an airplane wing:
It's specifically designed to have an aerodynamic advantage with 23 to 28c tires, and is incredibly stiff. Having not tested the competition, I can't really make an accurate comparison, but I would be willing to bet that in terms of weight, build quality, aero advantage and vertical/lateral stiffness, it stacks up favorably against if not superior to the competition.
It's specifically designed to have an aerodynamic advantage with 23 to 28c tires, and is incredibly stiff. Having not tested the competition, I can't really make an accurate comparison, but I would be willing to bet that in terms of weight, build quality, aero advantage and vertical/lateral stiffness, it stacks up favorably against if not superior to the competition.
07-16-14, 12:00 PM
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[QUOTE=twocicle;16943683]A taller profile provides more strength and the stiffness is more noticeable on tandem wheels as they hold their shape better during rotation where the contact patch meets the road. The duty cycle (1 revolution) on a tandem puts a lot of pressure onto the rim, and if that rim flexes too much it stresses the spokes excessively... meaning failure. Bad1's spoke failure with C2 rims is something I would expect, even on a set of fairly new tandem wheels when combined with a rim that flexes vertically a bit too much under tandem loads.
Regarding weight of the Kinlin/BHS (495gm), this is rim material. Rim design/engineering is one thing, but there is a point where removing too much material creates a flimsier structure. This is why Jason @ Fairwheel recommended not to use the Pacenti SL23, spoke bed too thin, rim too thin for tandem duty cycle. I bought a couple spare BHS rims "just in case", but the joke here is that I might not ever get to use them unless I build up another set of wheels... we'll see.
The Velocity Aileron shape looks interesting. As much as I like lightweight stuff, 460gm alloy tandem rims make me nervous. My comfort level is ~500gm.
As far as Rolf bashing... yeah, I wouldn't use those on our tandem, but having great success with the Vigor Alpha on my single as they are stiff and have a great rim profile (stable in crosswinds) plus I get them discounted from our team. Criterium corning with the Vigor A has been awesome.[/QUOTE
The rear wheel was built with 32 spoke 3 cross, the spoke broke at a unusual spot which was deemed by a professional wheel builder to be a factory defect.
Regarding weight of the Kinlin/BHS (495gm), this is rim material. Rim design/engineering is one thing, but there is a point where removing too much material creates a flimsier structure. This is why Jason @ Fairwheel recommended not to use the Pacenti SL23, spoke bed too thin, rim too thin for tandem duty cycle. I bought a couple spare BHS rims "just in case", but the joke here is that I might not ever get to use them unless I build up another set of wheels... we'll see.
The Velocity Aileron shape looks interesting. As much as I like lightweight stuff, 460gm alloy tandem rims make me nervous. My comfort level is ~500gm.
As far as Rolf bashing... yeah, I wouldn't use those on our tandem, but having great success with the Vigor Alpha on my single as they are stiff and have a great rim profile (stable in crosswinds) plus I get them discounted from our team. Criterium corning with the Vigor A has been awesome.[/QUOTE
The rear wheel was built with 32 spoke 3 cross, the spoke broke at a unusual spot which was deemed by a professional wheel builder to be a factory defect.
07-16-14, 01:46 PM
#54
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[QUOTE=Bad1;16944243]
Understand the point, but does not negate duty cycle (spoke tension/slack) effect and how that increases material fatigue and exacerbate flaws.
A taller profile provides more strength and the stiffness is more noticeable on tandem wheels as they hold their shape better during rotation where the contact patch meets the road. The duty cycle (1 revolution) on a tandem puts a lot of pressure onto the rim, and if that rim flexes too much it stresses the spokes excessively... meaning failure. Bad1's spoke failure with C2 rims is something I would expect, even on a set of fairly new tandem wheels when combined with a rim that flexes vertically a bit too much under tandem loads.
Regarding weight of the Kinlin/BHS (495gm), this is rim material. Rim design/engineering is one thing, but there is a point where removing too much material creates a flimsier structure. This is why Jason @ Fairwheel recommended not to use the Pacenti SL23, spoke bed too thin, rim too thin for tandem duty cycle. I bought a couple spare BHS rims "just in case", but the joke here is that I might not ever get to use them unless I build up another set of wheels... we'll see.
The Velocity Aileron shape looks interesting. As much as I like lightweight stuff, 460gm alloy tandem rims make me nervous. My comfort level is ~500gm.
As far as Rolf bashing... yeah, I wouldn't use those on our tandem, but having great success with the Vigor Alpha on my single as they are stiff and have a great rim profile (stable in crosswinds) plus I get them discounted from our team. Criterium corning with the Vigor A has been awesome.[/QUOTE
The rear wheel was built with 32 spoke 3 cross, the spoke broke at a unusual spot which was deemed by a professional wheel builder to be a factory defect.
Regarding weight of the Kinlin/BHS (495gm), this is rim material. Rim design/engineering is one thing, but there is a point where removing too much material creates a flimsier structure. This is why Jason @ Fairwheel recommended not to use the Pacenti SL23, spoke bed too thin, rim too thin for tandem duty cycle. I bought a couple spare BHS rims "just in case", but the joke here is that I might not ever get to use them unless I build up another set of wheels... we'll see.
The Velocity Aileron shape looks interesting. As much as I like lightweight stuff, 460gm alloy tandem rims make me nervous. My comfort level is ~500gm.
As far as Rolf bashing... yeah, I wouldn't use those on our tandem, but having great success with the Vigor Alpha on my single as they are stiff and have a great rim profile (stable in crosswinds) plus I get them discounted from our team. Criterium corning with the Vigor A has been awesome.[/QUOTE
The rear wheel was built with 32 spoke 3 cross, the spoke broke at a unusual spot which was deemed by a professional wheel builder to be a factory defect.
07-16-14, 03:14 PM
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One spoke breaking doesn't make the wheel set a problem, leading to a bad situation! As stated I rode the wheel set back home with the broken spoke removed 20 miles without a problem, most rims you'd be walking, the wheel builder who also built this set stated the DT Aero Comp had 2 nicks in the blade part of the spoke painted over by the factory that led to the spoke breaking at this location. This was 6 months ago and the Hed wheel set is as true and round as day 1, with 3500 miles of usage.
Last edited by Bad1; 07-16-14 at 03:17 PM.
07-16-14, 06:47 PM
#56
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One spoke breaking doesn't make the wheel set a problem, leading to a bad situation! As stated I rode the wheel set back home with the broken spoke removed 20 miles without a problem, most rims you'd be walking, the wheel builder who also built this set stated the DT Aero Comp had 2 nicks in the blade part of the spoke painted over by the factory that led to the spoke breaking at this location. This was 6 months ago and the Hed wheel set is as true and round as day 1, with 3500 miles of usage.
Suggest doing some research into the salient points to wheelbuilding. Here is a very simple description with a depiction of rim deflection and resulting spoke tension changes: Ian's Bicycle Wheel Analysis
A wider spoke tension fluctuation will shorten spoke life. Stiffer/deeper section rims will deflect less and therefore cause less spoke tension change than a rim which deflects more.
07-16-14, 08:58 PM
#57
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C2's a nice rim. Kinlin's are a little deeper. I also think the Pacenti is light for most teams.
The below is perhaps a fanciful drawing from Kinlin but it makes a point about flow. Many of us are running 28s, so not such nice flow.
twocicle is correct about rim stiffness and it's importance on a tandem. I was astonished at the difference when I went from Aeroheads to Deep-Vs. I think the Kinlins are even stiffer. The C2 is a stiff rim. The Kinlin is just a little stiffer.
I use rim brakes and the better heat dissipation of a deeper rim makes a world of difference. Looking at the sectional drawings above, I wonder if the wall thickness is to scale. If so, that's a nice thick brake track on the Kinlins. Not so good on the Pacentis.
Hed says cut your inflation pressure 11% when going from a 19mm to a 23mm rim. We were running 25mm Pro4Es (really 27.5mm) at 110 on our Deep-Vs, so that would be 98 on the Kinlins. Does that seem right? Bare us plus bare bike is 323 lbs. Seems to me that puts too much sidewall on the road. Right now we are running them at the same 110 lbs. which seems fine. The Hed tech guy, weighing 165, advises 80-90 with C2s and 22mm tires at his weight.
The below is perhaps a fanciful drawing from Kinlin but it makes a point about flow. Many of us are running 28s, so not such nice flow.
twocicle is correct about rim stiffness and it's importance on a tandem. I was astonished at the difference when I went from Aeroheads to Deep-Vs. I think the Kinlins are even stiffer. The C2 is a stiff rim. The Kinlin is just a little stiffer.
I use rim brakes and the better heat dissipation of a deeper rim makes a world of difference. Looking at the sectional drawings above, I wonder if the wall thickness is to scale. If so, that's a nice thick brake track on the Kinlins. Not so good on the Pacentis.
Hed says cut your inflation pressure 11% when going from a 19mm to a 23mm rim. We were running 25mm Pro4Es (really 27.5mm) at 110 on our Deep-Vs, so that would be 98 on the Kinlins. Does that seem right? Bare us plus bare bike is 323 lbs. Seems to me that puts too much sidewall on the road. Right now we are running them at the same 110 lbs. which seems fine. The Hed tech guy, weighing 165, advises 80-90 with C2s and 22mm tires at his weight.
07-16-14, 10:11 PM
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Rest easy dude. No one inferred your precious wheels will become untrue or out of round.
Suggest doing some research into the salient points to wheelbuilding. Here is a very simple description with a depiction of rim deflection and resulting spoke tension changes: Ian's Bicycle Wheel Analysis
A wider spoke tension fluctuation will shorten spoke life. Stiffer/deeper section rims will deflect less and therefore cause less spoke tension change than a rim which deflects more.
Suggest doing some research into the salient points to wheelbuilding. Here is a very simple description with a depiction of rim deflection and resulting spoke tension changes: Ian's Bicycle Wheel Analysis
A wider spoke tension fluctuation will shorten spoke life. Stiffer/deeper section rims will deflect less and therefore cause less spoke tension change than a rim which deflects more.
So how much deflection thousands, how much shorter spoke life? If you know the answers, Please enlighten me! I am well aware of the dynamics of a wheel during rotation, the loading and unloading of the weight and stress placed upon the wheel and spoke during rotation, The different stresses on the drive side and the non-drive side. I guess that is why the C2 are our training Wheelset and the Enve's 45/65 deep dish sub-500 Gram rims are our event and Fondo's wheelsets of choice to produce a few more watts in combination with the Continental 4000s 2 700x 23's. BTW the only things precious to me are my guns and clinging to my bible Dude! Cheers
Last edited by Bad1; 07-16-14 at 10:29 PM.
07-17-14, 09:47 AM
#60
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C2's a nice rim. Kinlin's are a little deeper. I also think the Pacenti is light for most teams.
The below is perhaps a fanciful drawing from Kinlin but it makes a point about flow. Many of us are running 28s, so not such nice flow.
twocicle is correct about rim stiffness and it's importance on a tandem. I was astonished at the difference when I went from Aeroheads to Deep-Vs. I think the Kinlins are even stiffer. The C2 is a stiff rim. The Kinlin is just a little stiffer.
I use rim brakes and the better heat dissipation of a deeper rim makes a world of difference. Looking at the sectional drawings above, I wonder if the wall thickness is to scale. If so, that's a nice thick brake track on the Kinlins. Not so good on the Pacentis.
Hed says cut your inflation pressure 11% when going from a 19mm to a 23mm rim. We were running 25mm Pro4Es (really 27.5mm) at 110 on our Deep-Vs, so that would be 98 on the Kinlins. Does that seem right? Bare us plus bare bike is 323 lbs. Seems to me that puts too much sidewall on the road. Right now we are running them at the same 110 lbs. which seems fine. The Hed tech guy, weighing 165, advises 80-90 with C2s and 22mm tires at his weight.
The below is perhaps a fanciful drawing from Kinlin but it makes a point about flow. Many of us are running 28s, so not such nice flow.
twocicle is correct about rim stiffness and it's importance on a tandem. I was astonished at the difference when I went from Aeroheads to Deep-Vs. I think the Kinlins are even stiffer. The C2 is a stiff rim. The Kinlin is just a little stiffer.
I use rim brakes and the better heat dissipation of a deeper rim makes a world of difference. Looking at the sectional drawings above, I wonder if the wall thickness is to scale. If so, that's a nice thick brake track on the Kinlins. Not so good on the Pacentis.
Hed says cut your inflation pressure 11% when going from a 19mm to a 23mm rim. We were running 25mm Pro4Es (really 27.5mm) at 110 on our Deep-Vs, so that would be 98 on the Kinlins. Does that seem right? Bare us plus bare bike is 323 lbs. Seems to me that puts too much sidewall on the road. Right now we are running them at the same 110 lbs. which seems fine. The Hed tech guy, weighing 165, advises 80-90 with C2s and 22mm tires at his weight.
With a skinnier rim (18.5mm Spinergy) we had to run ~117psi +/- 1psi to keep the 25mm Conti 4-Season tire stable on cornering. Above that pressure, the tire started to vibrate on chip seal road surface too much. With the 23mm wide BHS/Kinlin we run ~107psi +/- 1psi and the tire keeps a great profile cornering. Experimenting at 108psi and higher we can feel the tire get harsher and so back off the psi just enough to find that fine point of maximum pressure vs comfort. So in my experience with those two sets of wheels on our tandem, the psi difference is approx 10%. Subjectively, the ride quality is far better, handling is too.
As far as rim height profile performance, on my single I have noticed a fairly substantial difference in the 33mm tall x 22mm wide Rolf Vigor A "delta" rims, vs Dura Ace C24 rims (height: 21mm front, 23mm rear; 20.8mm wide). Surprisingly on higher wind days, the taller Rolfs are more stable and actually feel much more slippery in the wind than the shallow C24 rims, which after riding the Rolfs feel like my brakes are dragging.
07-17-14, 09:59 AM
#61
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carbonfiberboy...
Hed says cut your inflation pressure 11% when going from a 19mm to a 23mm rim. We were running 25mm Pro4Es (really 27.5mm) at 110 on our Deep-Vs, so that would be 98 on the Kinlins. Does that seem right? Bare us plus bare bike is 323 lbs. Seems to me that puts too much sidewall on the road. Right now we are running them at the same 110 lbs. which seems fine. The Hed tech guy, weighing 165, advises 80-90 with C2s and 22mm tires at his weight.
Hed says cut your inflation pressure 11% when going from a 19mm to a 23mm rim. We were running 25mm Pro4Es (really 27.5mm) at 110 on our Deep-Vs, so that would be 98 on the Kinlins. Does that seem right? Bare us plus bare bike is 323 lbs. Seems to me that puts too much sidewall on the road. Right now we are running them at the same 110 lbs. which seems fine. The Hed tech guy, weighing 165, advises 80-90 with C2s and 22mm tires at his weight.
With good tires I don't think pressure a little on the low side will slow you down. I have found that many of our fastest rides have been on tires that were inflated a little lower than I normally run.
07-17-14, 02:01 PM
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With 28s at slightly less weight we would run a little more pressure but everybody uses different tires, corners differently, and rides on different roads so to me tire pressure is a very individual decision. I generally lower the pressure a little and check cornering feel, sidewall exposure and pinch flat problems. If any show up then increase the pressure. If no problems then try a little lower pressure.
With good tires I don't think pressure a little on the low side will slow you down. I have found that many of our fastest rides have been on tires that were inflated a little lower than I normally run.
With good tires I don't think pressure a little on the low side will slow you down. I have found that many of our fastest rides have been on tires that were inflated a little lower than I normally run.
07-17-14, 03:55 PM
#63
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With 28s at slightly less weight we would run a little more pressure but everybody uses different tires, corners differently, and rides on different roads so to me tire pressure is a very individual decision. I generally lower the pressure a little and check cornering feel, sidewall exposure and pinch flat problems. If any show up then increase the pressure. If no problems then try a little lower pressure.
With good tires I don't think pressure a little on the low side will slow you down. I have found that many of our fastest rides have been on tires that were inflated a little lower than I normally run.
With good tires I don't think pressure a little on the low side will slow you down. I have found that many of our fastest rides have been on tires that were inflated a little lower than I normally run.
07-17-14, 04:31 PM
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"I'm in the hammock..."
Sorry for being off topic, but is that the SaddleCo saddle by chance? If not, what do you ride? I'm looking to replace one, and it was hammock-like...
Sorry for being off topic, but is that the SaddleCo saddle by chance? If not, what do you ride? I'm looking to replace one, and it was hammock-like...
07-20-14, 04:47 PM
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I don't think I have enough evidence to conclude the faster times are because of the pressure but it doesn't seem to slow us down.
10-09-14, 05:15 PM
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We have 2014 Rolf Prima Tandem wheelset. Twin 230mm rotors, BB7. Schwalbe Ultremo 28C folding tyres @ 100psi. IBIS tandem, S&S coupled, team weight 120kg, total weight ~ 140kg. 1,000 miles so far over mixed (UK, French) road conditions.
I admit to being anxious about the 24 bladed spoke set up (strength) but so far, so good - early days, but can't say I have much other than praise. Light, robust (so far), great acceleration (vs. 48 spoke, Hope hub touring wheels!) flex not noticeable under hard cornering. Also has performed well (no failure) hitting unseen potholes at fairly high speeds.
We are +0.9 mph quicker (17.5mph vs 16.6mph) on our standard 40 mile/400m climbing test route - mostly I suspect due to better acceleration out of the numerous corners than climbing speed due to lower (-2kg) wheel weight.
Hope this helps in your decision.
Tony
I admit to being anxious about the 24 bladed spoke set up (strength) but so far, so good - early days, but can't say I have much other than praise. Light, robust (so far), great acceleration (vs. 48 spoke, Hope hub touring wheels!) flex not noticeable under hard cornering. Also has performed well (no failure) hitting unseen potholes at fairly high speeds.
We are +0.9 mph quicker (17.5mph vs 16.6mph) on our standard 40 mile/400m climbing test route - mostly I suspect due to better acceleration out of the numerous corners than climbing speed due to lower (-2kg) wheel weight.
Hope this helps in your decision.
Tony
10-10-14, 08:30 AM
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We have 2014 Rolf Prima Tandem wheelset. Twin 230mm rotors, BB7. Schwalbe Ultremo 28C folding tyres @ 100psi. IBIS tandem, S&S coupled, team weight 120kg, total weight ~ 140kg. 1,000 miles so far over mixed (UK, French) road conditions.
I admit to being anxious about the 24 bladed spoke set up (strength) but so far, so good - early days, but can't say I have much other than praise. Light, robust (so far), great acceleration (vs. 48 spoke, Hope hub touring wheels!) flex not noticeable under hard cornering. Also has performed well (no failure) hitting unseen potholes at fairly high speeds.
We are +0.9 mph quicker (17.5mph vs 16.6mph) on our standard 40 mile/400m climbing test route - mostly I suspect due to better acceleration out of the numerous corners than climbing speed due to lower (-2kg) wheel weight.
Hope this helps in your decision.
Tony
I admit to being anxious about the 24 bladed spoke set up (strength) but so far, so good - early days, but can't say I have much other than praise. Light, robust (so far), great acceleration (vs. 48 spoke, Hope hub touring wheels!) flex not noticeable under hard cornering. Also has performed well (no failure) hitting unseen potholes at fairly high speeds.
We are +0.9 mph quicker (17.5mph vs 16.6mph) on our standard 40 mile/400m climbing test route - mostly I suspect due to better acceleration out of the numerous corners than climbing speed due to lower (-2kg) wheel weight.
Hope this helps in your decision.
Tony
10-10-14, 11:18 AM
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Aluminium - they weigh in around 1900g for the pair.
11-11-14, 11:19 AM
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Hello fellow tandem enthusiasts! I'm interesting in buying Rolf's dual disc brakes alum or carbon tandem wheelset for my Cannondale tandem with My team weighs about 260lbs (190lb me and 70lb for my son). Any real world experience with either the alum or carbon wheels is most appreciated!
Be safe and ride fast!
Be safe and ride fast!
07-06-15, 01:18 PM
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Help, I bought a tandem with 135mm spacing. It came with heavy 40 spoke wheels (white industry disc laced to maybe velocity ?? I was planning on building up a lighter set using some Chris King hubs 32h disc. I bought some Velocity fusion rims and had my shop building them up. In the process they saw some stress fracturing on the rims??? Not sure how this is possible (new rims) Anyway I plan to toss the rims and buy new ones however now I am wondering if I should go with a different rim. the Kinlin 279? Velocity Chukker or deep V, Other? The stoker and I have a combined weight of 380 lbs. Any suggestions? I plan to keep the other wheels for gravel roads
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