Lightning F-40
#51
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Middle of da Mitten
Posts: 12,499
Bikes: Trek 7500, RANS V-Rex, Optima Baron, Velokraft NoCom, M-5 Carbon Highracer, Catrike Speed
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Here's a pic of Chris and our friend Wally riding together on DALMAC. The speed envelopes were close enough to let him ride with us on flat ground, but when the road got hillier than, oh, FLAT, he fell behind. Still, it's a good platform. Almost as fast as something like a Quest, and for much less money.
#52
Senior Member
Most of the permanents and brevets around here have climbing rates somewhere between 50 and 95 feet per mile (6,000 to 12,000 feet per 200K).
#53
Senior Member
Here's a pic of Chris and our friend Wally riding together on DALMAC. The speed envelopes were close enough to let him ride with us on flat ground, but when the road got hillier than, oh, FLAT, he fell behind. Still, it's a good platform. Almost as fast as something like a Quest, and for much less money.
#54
Zircon Encrusted Tweezers
Yeah, that's getting pretty close to a velomobile price range. The R-84 frame would shed some weight and add some stiffness (maybe), but I wouldn't think that would make a major difference in how it climbs. When it comes to climbing, I figure equipment can only do so much for you. Things are much more simple - it's that old power to weight ratio thing, again.
#55
Zircon Encrusted Tweezers
For sure.
Yeah, the mountains themselves aren't all that terribly high, but if you cross a couple of those and throw a million little hills in the valley parts in between, it's not hard to get above 6000 feet per 200K. In fact, our route designs are largely about reducing climbing as much as possible without sacrificing pleasantness and safety. As in a lot of places with hills, safe and scenic and fun means hilly. But too much scenery means undue suffering. And a man can only take so much Type II and III fun in one day.
Edited to add: here: https://www.bentrideronline.com/messa...2&postcount=38 willie says his quest is faster than the Carbent over most routes where the climbing is less than 50 feet per mile. That makes sense to me. At some point, as the climbing per mile goes up, the superior aerodynamics of the velo yields to the much lower weight machine. Then again, a F-40 isn't all that terribly light, though. So, the crossover point between that and a light weight velo (thinking of a carbon Quest) might be a bit higher. Anyways, my overall impression is that an F-40 would be a better way to do faired rando than a velo in these here parts.
That said, just as compelling of a question is if the superior aerodynamics of an F-40 compared to my Metabike (CdA of about 0.16 to 0.23-ish, respectively) makes up for the higher weight of the F-40 over my typical routes? My Metabike is about 26 lbs naked. (heavy duty rando build....) and Lighting says the F-40 is 33 lbs. With me, plus clothes, water, bags and other crapola riding around on the Metabike weighing in at almost 207-208 lbs., that 7 lbs difference is only about 3.3%. Not much. . I estimate that 3.3% slower climbing would only amount to about 12 to 15 minutes of added climbing time on a typical 200K. Probably wouldn't take too many flat and open downhill sections to make up for that amount of lost time.
Edited to add: here: https://www.bentrideronline.com/messa...2&postcount=38 willie says his quest is faster than the Carbent over most routes where the climbing is less than 50 feet per mile. That makes sense to me. At some point, as the climbing per mile goes up, the superior aerodynamics of the velo yields to the much lower weight machine. Then again, a F-40 isn't all that terribly light, though. So, the crossover point between that and a light weight velo (thinking of a carbon Quest) might be a bit higher. Anyways, my overall impression is that an F-40 would be a better way to do faired rando than a velo in these here parts.
That said, just as compelling of a question is if the superior aerodynamics of an F-40 compared to my Metabike (CdA of about 0.16 to 0.23-ish, respectively) makes up for the higher weight of the F-40 over my typical routes? My Metabike is about 26 lbs naked. (heavy duty rando build....) and Lighting says the F-40 is 33 lbs. With me, plus clothes, water, bags and other crapola riding around on the Metabike weighing in at almost 207-208 lbs., that 7 lbs difference is only about 3.3%. Not much. . I estimate that 3.3% slower climbing would only amount to about 12 to 15 minutes of added climbing time on a typical 200K. Probably wouldn't take too many flat and open downhill sections to make up for that amount of lost time.
Last edited by Steamer; 11-26-14 at 02:36 PM.
#56
Senior Member
Thread Starter
This is one reason why Tim Brummer might want to get in touch with his old buddy Don Guichard who since 2008 is with Cervelo doing the RCA composite thing for the climbing bike on the Grand Tours. I mean really, really light.
#57
not according to Wally. He bought the carbon r-84. Didn't make enough difference to make the money spent worthwhile. With comparable strength riders, a nocom is equal to a f-40 in the speed department except that the nocom will still go up the hills quicker.
#59
Senior Member
#60
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Velokraft Models NoCom
https://www.recumbents.com/wisil/misc/nocom.htm
This NoCom (no compromise) is the racing machine.
https://www.recumbents.com/wisil/misc/nocom.htm
This NoCom (no compromise) is the racing machine.
Last edited by Garfield Cat; 11-28-14 at 08:36 AM.
#63
Insane Bicycle Mechanic
#64
The Recumbent Quant
As long as we've gone a bit amiss, I'll point out that I'd love to see a Silvio V1.x get the F40 treatment. That would be a fast bike!
#66
Insane Bicycle Mechanic
Yawn... been there, done that. (OK... more like a 'socked Gold Rush, but...) This is from the 2003 Human Power Challenge in Portland: Road Races
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Jeff Wills
Comcast nuked my web page. It will return soon..
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#67
rebmeM roineS
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Metro Indy, IN
Posts: 16,218
Bikes: Bacchetta Giro A20, RANS V-Rex, RANS Screamer
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Yawn... been there, done that. (OK... more like a 'socked Gold Rush, but...) This is from the 2003 Human Power Challenge in Portland: Road Races
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Bacchetta Giro A20, RANS V-Rex, RANS Screamer
Bacchetta Giro A20, RANS V-Rex, RANS Screamer
#68
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Whenever I see/hear news about cycling accidents, its not about recumbents. Yet, the first thing the safety types say is that recumbents are inherently dangerous because they're too low for drivers to see.
#69
Senior Member
2. if you can see the paint on the pavement, you can see a recumbent
3. the "safety types" are NOT recumbent riders.
Take a pick.
FWIW 4. it's virtually impossible to do an endo on most bents (IIRC the most common type of bike accident)
#70
Insane Bicycle Mechanic
Collision involving FedEx truck kills man riding on Cornell Road in Cedar Mill - BikePortland.org
From all indications, it was the truck driver's fault. I find it hard to believe that anyone would miss seeing him and his bike.
RIP Kirke Johnson:
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Jeff Wills
Comcast nuked my web page. It will return soon..
Jeff Wills
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#71
Senior Member
Thread Starter
A friend up in Oregon as a Metabike Metaphysics. Unique thing is that both front and rear wheel size are the same. This is different than the Lightning P-38.
Is this same size wheel type any better than the smaller front wheel?
Is this same size wheel type any better than the smaller front wheel?
#72
Senior Member
For bumpy roads, a larger wheel is better, and you have the most tire choices in 700c. I think the lower Crr you may get with large wheels is overemphasized though. What is more important is how the bike's ergonomics work with you and what you want to bike to do. Big front wheel = high bottom bracket. Are you comfortable with that for what you want to use the bike for? I have both and it's horses for courses.
#73
Zircon Encrusted Tweezers
That's not particularly unique. There are lots of 'bents with equal sized, large (26" and bigger) wheels. The metabikes have some unique features, but equal sized wheels isn't one of them.
#74
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Ok, I looked up BikeSmith Designs, Mark Stonich. He seems to be the guru of recumbent design , or at least one of them. Now, I have to re-think this whole thing and what the P-38 means to me.
#75
Zircon Encrusted Tweezers
Garfield, you're sort of all over the map, here.
If you've done research into 'bents you've surely realized that there a very large number of different types and designs. Each of these has pros and cons. There is no one magical perfect recumbent for everyone and every use and every situation.
If you are interested in possibly getting a recumbent, and want to make a good choice, then you need to do a few things:
1. Try to understand what the pros and cons generally are with each type of recumbent.
2. Be honest with yourself about what your needs and preferences really are.
3. Test ride. Test ride some more.
4. Go for it. Buy something. Understand that you probably will not buy the perfect bike for you on the first try. Very few people do.
5. If that first bike is not perfect, repeat steps 1 through 3 above.
6. Sell the previous bike bike and buy something that gets you closer to perfect. Bents hold their resale value pretty well.
Each time you go through the process you will get closer and closer to the ONE. And after a few years of owning the ONE, your preferences or needs will change and you'll be back where you started.
It's a journey, not a destination.
If you've done research into 'bents you've surely realized that there a very large number of different types and designs. Each of these has pros and cons. There is no one magical perfect recumbent for everyone and every use and every situation.
If you are interested in possibly getting a recumbent, and want to make a good choice, then you need to do a few things:
1. Try to understand what the pros and cons generally are with each type of recumbent.
2. Be honest with yourself about what your needs and preferences really are.
3. Test ride. Test ride some more.
4. Go for it. Buy something. Understand that you probably will not buy the perfect bike for you on the first try. Very few people do.
5. If that first bike is not perfect, repeat steps 1 through 3 above.
6. Sell the previous bike bike and buy something that gets you closer to perfect. Bents hold their resale value pretty well.
Each time you go through the process you will get closer and closer to the ONE. And after a few years of owning the ONE, your preferences or needs will change and you'll be back where you started.
It's a journey, not a destination.