Small cracks in rim along spokes, proper course of action
01-09-15, 01:57 PM
#101
Calamari Marionette Ph.D
So where is your problem?
I agree that the torque is of the driving force is applied through the hub to the rim and then to the tire and then to the ground. Braking force of a rim brake, on the other hand, takes a slightly more convoluted route of from the brake pads through the hub to the rim, tire and ground.
01-09-15, 08:33 PM
#102
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Nope. For a couple of reasons. While the holes can theoretically decrease in diameter as the corrosion salts fill the hole, the salts have little to no strength and are very brittle. Any movement of the rim...and there is always movement of the rim...would break the salts free and move them out of the hole. Aluminum corrosion salts can easily be flaked off by hand.
Additionally, if the salts were strong enough to hold up to any mechanical movement, you'd expect the cracks to form radially outward from the holes in all directions. The cracks would be star cracks not linear cracks in line with the center line of the rim.
Further, the holes for the nipples in the rim aren't that tight. There is a significant amount of room in the holes for the spokes to turn during the building process. You'd need a lot more corrosion to fill the hole than is evident in ehilge's pictures.
A much more likely cause of the cracks is either spokes that are too tight or too loose. Both can cause the same pattern of cracking. Either way the rim is toast.
Additionally, if the salts were strong enough to hold up to any mechanical movement, you'd expect the cracks to form radially outward from the holes in all directions. The cracks would be star cracks not linear cracks in line with the center line of the rim.
Further, the holes for the nipples in the rim aren't that tight. There is a significant amount of room in the holes for the spokes to turn during the building process. You'd need a lot more corrosion to fill the hole than is evident in ehilge's pictures.
A much more likely cause of the cracks is either spokes that are too tight or too loose. Both can cause the same pattern of cracking. Either way the rim is toast.
I'd check the warranty with the shop where you purchased it first. Your mileage is way too low to justify a failure so definitely have to do something different than OEM. I love Velocity Dyads and have many thousands on mine. With the Dyads you are fine with 32 hole.
01-09-15, 09:54 PM
#103
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As the OP, I feel a need to chime in on the great torque debate. I had trouble following all the arguments being put forth throughout the thread, so I'm going to make my own claim concerning braking forces but actually cite my source.
From pages 20-22, "The Bicycle Wheel" by Joseph Brandt:
Concerning forces applied by rim mounted brakes
Concerning torsional loads (torque):
In summary, rim brakes DO NOT result in a large net torque being applied to the wheel. This is because the braking force of the brake on the rim, and the friction force between the ground in the tire act in the same direction, opposite the direction of travel. These forces are reacted by the force of the rest of bike pushing forward on the axle. Thus, there is NO NET MOMENT about the axle. The effect on the wheel is the same as if I grabbed the axle, and you grabbed opposing sides if the rim and pulled. Either force by itself would cause a torque, but they cancel each other out.
Accelerating or braking using rim brakes DOES result in a torque applied to the wheel. In this case a torque is generated at the hub by the cassette or brake which results in a force acting tangentially along the rim at the ground contact point.
Think of it if you were parked on a steep hill and holding your brakes shut, I think that helps. Also, I recommend reading the book, there are some good diagrams in there. And that's all I have to say on that topic.
Regarding the broken wheel that started all this, no updates, its been a busy week with school starting and all.
From pages 20-22, "The Bicycle Wheel" by Joseph Brandt:
Concerning forces applied by rim mounted brakes
Braking with a caliper brake causes a small but significant radial load that affects
spoke tension. Under hard braking, the brake shoes grab the rim with a force
of up to 500 N by pushing rearward with 250 N force and pulling on the front
half of the rim equally. This increases compression in the rear half of the rim
and decreases compression in the front half about the same as the increase from
tire pressure.
Spokes in the forward half of the wheel become about 5 % looser and ones in the
rear, 5 % tighter. At the caliper and the ground contact point, where forces act
on the wheel, there is little effect so tension remains unchanged. The bending
stiffness of the rim and the direction of the braking force cause a smooth
transition in spoke tension as the rim passes through the brake caliper. Of all the
loads on a wheel, braking is the only one that causes an significant increase in
rim compression, and severe braking can cause an overtensioned wheel to
collapse into a saddle shape (pretzel).
spoke tension. Under hard braking, the brake shoes grab the rim with a force
of up to 500 N by pushing rearward with 250 N force and pulling on the front
half of the rim equally. This increases compression in the rear half of the rim
and decreases compression in the front half about the same as the increase from
tire pressure.
Spokes in the forward half of the wheel become about 5 % looser and ones in the
rear, 5 % tighter. At the caliper and the ground contact point, where forces act
on the wheel, there is little effect so tension remains unchanged. The bending
stiffness of the rim and the direction of the braking force cause a smooth
transition in spoke tension as the rim passes through the brake caliper. Of all the
loads on a wheel, braking is the only one that causes an significant increase in
rim compression, and severe braking can cause an overtensioned wheel to
collapse into a saddle shape (pretzel).
Torque is a dynamic load caused by pedaling or by a hub brake. Torque is a
twisting force in the hub that produces or slows wheel rotation. As the chain
turns the rear wheel sprocket it exerts torque on the hub. Torque is expressed
in terms of a force and the length of the lever on which it acts. In the bicycle the
force and lever are the tension in the chain and the radius of the sprocket. Spokes
are flexible and cannot transmit torque by acting as levers, so they transmit
torque from the hub to the rim by becoming tighter and looser. The lever arm
is the distance by which the line of the spoke misses intersecting the centerline
of the rear axle. The force is the total change in tension among the spokes, some
of which become tighter, and some looser.
twisting force in the hub that produces or slows wheel rotation. As the chain
turns the rear wheel sprocket it exerts torque on the hub. Torque is expressed
in terms of a force and the length of the lever on which it acts. In the bicycle the
force and lever are the tension in the chain and the radius of the sprocket. Spokes
are flexible and cannot transmit torque by acting as levers, so they transmit
torque from the hub to the rim by becoming tighter and looser. The lever arm
is the distance by which the line of the spoke misses intersecting the centerline
of the rear axle. The force is the total change in tension among the spokes, some
of which become tighter, and some looser.
Accelerating or braking using rim brakes DOES result in a torque applied to the wheel. In this case a torque is generated at the hub by the cassette or brake which results in a force acting tangentially along the rim at the ground contact point.
Think of it if you were parked on a steep hill and holding your brakes shut, I think that helps. Also, I recommend reading the book, there are some good diagrams in there. And that's all I have to say on that topic.
Regarding the broken wheel that started all this, no updates, its been a busy week with school starting and all.
01-10-15, 09:08 AM
#104
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As the OP, I feel a need to chime in on the great torque debate. I had trouble following all the arguments being put forth throughout the thread, so I'm going to make my own claim concerning braking forces but actually cite my source.
From pages 20-22, "The Bicycle Wheel" by Joseph Brandt:
From pages 20-22, "The Bicycle Wheel" by Joseph Brandt:
Spokes
are flexible and cannot transmit torque by acting as levers, so they transmit
torque from the hub to the rim by becoming tighter and looser.
are flexible and cannot transmit torque by acting as levers, so they transmit
torque from the hub to the rim by becoming tighter and looser.
In summary, rim brakes DO NOT result in a large net torque being applied to the wheel. This is because the braking force of the brake on the rim, and the friction force between the ground in the tire act in the same direction, opposite the direction of travel. These forces are reacted by the force of the rest of bike pushing forward on the axle. Thus, there is NO NET MOMENT about the axle. The effect on the wheel is the same as if I grabbed the axle, and you grabbed opposing sides if the rim and pulled. Either force by itself would cause a torque, but they cancel each other out.
Accelerating or braking using rim brakes DOES result in a torque applied to the wheel. In this case a torque is generated at the hub by the cassette or brake which results in a force acting tangentially along the rim at the ground contact point.
Accelerating or braking using rim brakes DOES result in a torque applied to the wheel. In this case a torque is generated at the hub by the cassette or brake which results in a force acting tangentially along the rim at the ground contact point.
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01-10-15, 09:21 AM
#105
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The hub is a conduit. The forces pass through the hub because the hub is part of the whole wheel. Braking force doesn't get applied to the rim and then magically appear at the ground. Brake force applied to the rim has an effect on the entire wheel of which the hub is a part. FB is fond of freebody diagrams and this one could be reduced to a relatively simple one like this one from Wikipedia. The rim, spokes and hub can be reduced to a single point because they are part of an entire unit.
That doesn't change, by the way, if you go to a hub mounted disc brake. The diagram is still the same. There is one caveat when disc brakes are used, however. They put a significant twisting load on the axle that rim brakes don't. That twisting load can result in the wheel camming out of the fork dropouts if the wheel isn't sufficiently bound to the fork.
That doesn't change, by the way, if you go to a hub mounted disc brake. The diagram is still the same. There is one caveat when disc brakes are used, however. They put a significant twisting load on the axle that rim brakes don't. That twisting load can result in the wheel camming out of the fork dropouts if the wheel isn't sufficiently bound to the fork.
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Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
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Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
01-10-15, 02:05 PM
#106
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Just curious.
Is there ANYONE reading this who is swayed by Cycommute's arguments or feel he's raising valid points?
If not, then there's no point in going further, because he can believe what he does, and the rest of the world can believe otherwise.
Is there ANYONE reading this who is swayed by Cycommute's arguments or feel he's raising valid points?
If not, then there's no point in going further, because he can believe what he does, and the rest of the world can believe otherwise.
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01-10-15, 03:06 PM
#107
Certified Bike Brat
As far as I understand things - the only torque forces on bicycle wheels are on the drive side of the rear wheel and on wheels equipped with disc brakes. Otherwise radial spoking for front wheels and half radial for rear wheels just wouldn't be safe.
This post sure managed to get derailed, but the conclusion that the rim needs to be replaced and that the damage was caused by improper tensioning and possible corrosion damage I'll agree completely with.
This post sure managed to get derailed, but the conclusion that the rim needs to be replaced and that the damage was caused by improper tensioning and possible corrosion damage I'll agree completely with.
01-11-15, 11:39 AM
#108
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A couple of updates:
- I checked with the shop I bought the bike from and no luck on the warranty
- I was doing some google searching on touring rims, and it seems like the Mavic A719 is rather highly recommended. Then I realized someone recommended it on this thread as well so I'm leaning towards that option. Right now I intend to stick with 32H. I'd like to keep my hub, and no one has given a particularly strong argument for upgrading to 36H. Lastly, is there a disc brake rim equivalent of the 719, or if not, any thoughts, on a similar disc specific rim? I realize I could use the A719 with discs just fine, but it would be nice to know of any disc specific options.
- I checked with the shop I bought the bike from and no luck on the warranty
- I was doing some google searching on touring rims, and it seems like the Mavic A719 is rather highly recommended. Then I realized someone recommended it on this thread as well so I'm leaning towards that option. Right now I intend to stick with 32H. I'd like to keep my hub, and no one has given a particularly strong argument for upgrading to 36H. Lastly, is there a disc brake rim equivalent of the 719, or if not, any thoughts, on a similar disc specific rim? I realize I could use the A719 with discs just fine, but it would be nice to know of any disc specific options.
01-11-15, 11:54 AM
#109
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Otherwise, I've with you on staying with 32h.
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WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FB
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An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
01-11-15, 12:01 PM
#110
Senior Member
Well, there are a couple of disc specific rims which haven't got much of a brake track. They tend to be at the high cost, low weight end of the scale. Stans and FRM are brands that come to mind.
01-11-15, 12:22 PM
#111
Certified Bike Brat
A couple of updates:
- I checked with the shop I bought the bike from and no luck on the warranty
- I was doing some google searching on touring rims, and it seems like the Mavic A719 is rather highly recommended. Then I realized someone recommended it on this thread as well so I'm leaning towards that option. Right now I intend to stick with 32H. I'd like to keep my hub, and no one has given a particularly strong argument for upgrading to 36H. Lastly, is there a disc brake rim equivalent of the 719, or if not, any thoughts, on a similar disc specific rim? I realize I could use the A719 with discs just fine, but it would be nice to know of any disc specific options.
- I checked with the shop I bought the bike from and no luck on the warranty
- I was doing some google searching on touring rims, and it seems like the Mavic A719 is rather highly recommended. Then I realized someone recommended it on this thread as well so I'm leaning towards that option. Right now I intend to stick with 32H. I'd like to keep my hub, and no one has given a particularly strong argument for upgrading to 36H. Lastly, is there a disc brake rim equivalent of the 719, or if not, any thoughts, on a similar disc specific rim? I realize I could use the A719 with discs just fine, but it would be nice to know of any disc specific options.
Equivalent disc specific models would be the XM719 or the XM819. The XM 819 is a tubeless type rim. Both are slightly lighter than the A719 because since a braking surface is not required - there is no need for extra material on the sidewall area.
None of the rims mentioned would be a bad choice. Just choose quality spokes, have them built by someone that knows what he's doing and you'll be set for years.
01-11-15, 02:11 PM
#113
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OK. so the "so far" is dated. But it doesn't change the gist of the post where I say that the benefits of disc only rims are limited.
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01-11-15, 02:29 PM
#114
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I'm a couple sets of Mavic A719's myself. They use a double eyelet design where the a A319 and A119 use a single eyelet design. The alloy is also different being more resistant on the braking surface.
Equivalent disc specific models would be the XM719 or the XM819. The XM 819 is a tubeless type rim. Both are slightly lighter than the A719 because since a braking surface is not required - there is no need for extra material on the sidewall area.
None of the rims mentioned would be a bad choice. Just choose quality spokes, have them built by someone that knows what he's doing and you'll be set for years.
Equivalent disc specific models would be the XM719 or the XM819. The XM 819 is a tubeless type rim. Both are slightly lighter than the A719 because since a braking surface is not required - there is no need for extra material on the sidewall area.
None of the rims mentioned would be a bad choice. Just choose quality spokes, have them built by someone that knows what he's doing and you'll be set for years.
01-11-15, 03:05 PM
#116
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Good day to you.
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Last edited by FBinNY; 01-11-15 at 03:13 PM.
01-11-15, 07:58 PM
#118
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I saw the XM719 but its made for mountain bikes so requires a much wider tire than what I would want. Any experience using Velocity rims and/or thoughts on my best options? They seem to be coming up a fair bit in my google searching along with the Mavics. The Dyad is quite a bit lighter, is it durable enough? It doesn't appear to have eyelets which, by gut instinct, seems undesirable. But from what I've read up on that topic eyelets are probably not as big of a deal as I think they should be.
I have 28mm semi slicks mounted on them. Im a big guy. My bike, me and all my gear is always between 310-335 lbs. My wheels are straight, and brake surface looks awesome. I bought my set from tree fort bikes website, and was built by Handspun. Best set if you need a strong wheel, and on a tight budget. My wheel set is build to last, with Shimano LX hub with steel axle, and DT spokes. All my issues with rims cracking near the nipples, and broken spokes are the thing of the past.
01-11-15, 11:22 PM
#119
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I saw the XM719 but its made for mountain bikes so requires a much wider tire than what I would want. Any experience using Velocity rims and/or thoughts on my best options? They seem to be coming up a fair bit in my google searching along with the Mavics. The Dyad is quite a bit lighter, is it durable enough? It doesn't appear to have eyelets which, by gut instinct, seems undesirable. But from what I've read up on that topic eyelets are probably not as big of a deal as I think they should be.
Mavic A719 ETRTO size 29": 622 x 19
Mavic A819 ETRTO size 29": 622 x 19
Recommended tyre widths: 1.50 to 2.30
Last edited by Burton; 01-11-15 at 11:28 PM.
01-12-15, 04:06 AM
#120
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Whether that's actually merited or not, or the degree of relation to the "disc only" design I can't say.
01-12-15, 07:23 AM
#121
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I saw the XM719 but its made for mountain bikes so requires a much wider tire than what I would want. Any experience using Velocity rims and/or thoughts on my best options? They seem to be coming up a fair bit in my google searching along with the Mavics. The Dyad is quite a bit lighter, is it durable enough? It doesn't appear to have eyelets which, by gut instinct, seems undesirable. But from what I've read up on that topic eyelets are probably not as big of a deal as I think they should be.
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01-12-15, 08:07 AM
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Ahhh, yes, I obviously didn't look closely enough at the actual size of the rime. The page for the A719 listed recommended tires size 28-47mm which is smaller that the 1.5-2.3 inches quoted for the XM719. But I suppose that's just because one rim is marketed for road use and the other for mountain.
01-12-15, 08:12 AM
#123
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Then describe a force that can be applied to a rotating object that causes a change in the rate of rotation that isn't called a "torque". While you are at it, explain how a force that changes the rate of rotation can drive a rotating object in one direct is torque but a force that acts on a the rotating object in the opposite direction isn't a torque.
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Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
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Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
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Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
01-13-15, 01:16 PM
#124
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Then describe a force that can be applied to a rotating object that causes a change in the rate of rotation that isn't called a "torque". While you are at it, explain how a force that changes the rate of rotation can drive a rotating object in one direct is torque but a force that acts on a the rotating object in the opposite direction isn't a torque.
The facts can often mask the truth and its pretty easy to look up things on the Internet and present them as 'facts'. The truth in this case is - you don't have a clue what you're talking about.
01-13-15, 01:19 PM
#125
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Call PETA, this horse is well and truly dead. It's time for a decent burial before it gets down to personalities.
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An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
