cooker

Some of those lines date back to the 1890s, so 1944 isn't the beginning of a 45 year life expectancy. They were already that old.

Philadelphia Trolley Tracks - 1974 brochure

TransitBiker

Well i mean ones built today. Things are different now.

- Andy

fietsbob

the removal was intentional as said above Why Richmond, Why?!? Burning of Trolley Cars - Richmond.com: Why Richmond, Why?!?

Politics is run by the interests of Money 1st..

National City Lines - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

General Motors streetcar conspiracy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

as Marhall plan US Money was invested in rebuilding Europe's Public Transportations

Private-Corporate collusions was destroying what was un damaged by Bombing, that worked At Home .

LesterOfPuppets

I hope they're almost done with the streetcar buildout down in Portland. Riding bikes among those rails sucks, especially in the rain.

Zedoo

My recumbent doesn't fit on the racks.

I-Like-To-Bike

The same-old, same-old conspiracy theory peddling gets tiresome.
Be Careful How You Refer to the So-Called 'Great American Streetcar Scandal' - CityLab

https://debunkportland.com/printables/TQOrigin.pdf

Ekdog

We can only hope that sheer stupidity and corporate greed would not once again lead us to do away with something as precious as a streetcar system, but if it happened once it could happen again.

FBinNY 

I can understand the government bias to rail transit. Politicians like to point to major capital improvement projects like new rail systems, and buying s me busses and adding a few routes doesn't make the cut.

For some key corridor routes, rail makes sense, since it has an assured private right of way. It can also be cheaper to operated in terms om manpower because a single driver can haul more people. That compares to buses sharing crowded roadways and moving at a snail's pace because of that. OTOH it is possible in many cases to provide dedicated exclusive bus lanes that address this issue.

IMO and IME, the two most important features of good mass transit are a well branched network that shortens the "last leg" between stops and destinations, and a high frequency of runs, including extended hours. Trains concentrate riders into fewer less frequent quanta, which depending on ridership trades into lower frequency. Lower frequency, and/or longer last miles are a major deterrent to ridership, so, except for various corridors where trains can serve well, money would be better spent on a good bus network. Then if/when ridership increases, rail routes can be added where they make sense.

The sad thing is that busophobia means faster transit in fewer corridors, but it means no or poorer transit for most of then users outside the densest areas.

Artkansas 

Mine does. That was one of my criterion when I was shopping for it.

Dahon.Steve

You can't sell buses for the following reasons:

1. The bus is often the transport of the poor ----- This is not just perception but real as someone how uses both. Long distance commuter coaches is a different story where suburban white residents spend several hundred dollars a month for luxury service. However, local city buses usually transport the poor and lower middle class.

2. Suburban voters will support commuter rail and not bus ---- When a transit authority is making a long term capital investment, they can enough suburban support to make it happen. However, these same voters will not support more transit in general because this means buses for the city. There has been a rebirth of commuter rail in this country as suburban voters want trains but not buses. Yet, new rail lines often mean cuts in bus service which is something suburban voters don't care about.

3. Commuter rail is seen as an investment while bus is an expense --- A new commuter rail stop will increase the value of the neighborhood often creating a miniature mall with shops and jobs. Sure it's going to need massive subsidization but the end result could very well end up with a revitalized mixed use community. We're talking luxury condos, stores and restaurants all along the line.

I can't stress this enough that you're not going to get this with a bus stop. Which is why the bus is seen as an expense.

Machka 

You can't sell buses ... in your immediate area ... for the above reasons. The situation is different in different parts of the world.

I take it you don't have "bus malls" where you live?

marimorimo

I read the article and I still don't support the anti-rail stance. Those who prefer to have more buses instead of trains in a densely populated area such as the city have not ridden a proper train system, period.

I live in Japan, the land of trains galore and it's a dream for getting around. You can get to ANYWHERE in Japan using the interconnected railways. Long commutes by train (1-2 hours) into Tokyo are not uncommon because of the safety and convenience of trains. I come from a country with very limited rail infrastructure and used buses there most of the time. There is no comparison to the comfort and convenience of riding a train compared to being on a bus. Being on a bus for 1 hour makes me feel exhausted even if I'm sitting down, but I still feel fresh after a 1+ hour commute by train standing up. I also like not being under the mercy of rash drivers or Friday-night traffic and can count on arriving at my destination at the set time.

Not to mention that convenient train station locations tend to attract people and business in the area, making trains a wiser investment over buses, barring remote and underpopulated areas.

LesterOfPuppets

.

I LOVE intercity rail, but can't stand streetcars (AKA trams or trolleys). Riding on roads with rails set in them is not fun.

See the cyclist in this pic? Think he's enjoying all that steel in the road?



Lightrail I'm kinda on the fence about. Sometimes it's implemented in an almost streetcar-like way and in other areas it's more like intercity rail.

Machka 

Absolutely!!

I have travelled by train quite a bit in Europe, and it's great ... love it!

As far as commuting goes, Edmonton, Alberta, Canada has a small commuter rail system, and even though it was small, it was far superior to taking the bus. I had a station about 1.5 km from where I lived, and I knew that trains departed from that station every 6 min. So, if I were just a bit late leaving the house ... no problem, there will be another train along in 6 min.

That's compared with buses which might go every 10 min, if you're lucky ... or 20 min ... or 40 min. (where I live now, if I miss the bus, it's a 40 min wait for the next one)

And it was so much faster than the busses. A direct route right to the university, no meandering up and down roads all over the place, no traffic issues ...


They are talking about putting light rail into the city where I live now, and I really hope they go ahead with that. I'll ride it just simply because ... I like trains. But I think it could have some interesting potential depending how far out it goes.

cooker

Perhaps we need to reclaim the "devil strip".


(Not really)

cooker

Japan is way more densely populated than most of the US, and that density supports rail. There aren't many people who would ride a train 2 hours into Minneapolis every day, because the land that far out is pretty empty, so it makes no sense to build a commuter rail network fannng out from the twin cities. It works to some degree in New York because there is a lot more density in the surrounding areas.

I-Like-To-Bike

Maybe so; but not in many (if any) places in the U.S. The reasons Steve D. specified why selling (either to taxpayers or private business) any local transit without a right of way for express service and/or that services inner city/lower income residents is a difficult sell hold true in almost all U. S. metropolitan areas.

Those people enamored of riding local buses may find ranting about the injustice and political incorrectness of such a situation may make them feel better but it won't sell anybody else on either taking a bus or supporting funding for expanding local bus systems into their own area.

cooker

Actually you were proven wrong before the fact, as we learned earlier in the thread about people in Seattle "resorting" to riding the bus because it turns out to be better than driving.

https://grist.org/living/traffic-is-s...m=social&utm_s

"A new survey conducted by the Downtown Seattle Association finds that nearly 70 percent of commuters are now choosing to get to work in ways other than driving their own cars. That’s up from just 50 percent in 2000..."

This page has a link to public transit quarterly and annual ridership reports. At first glance, it looks like bus usage has been flat for years but the notes explian that this is due to a change in reporting. Some bus use is now reported in the "demand response" category, which has more than doubled since 1990.
https://www.apta.com/resources/statis...hipreport.aspx

enigmaT120

How are you getting all the way to Salem? Changing buses in Wilsonville?

I also love buses with bike racks. But for any bus that fills up like the ones that Machka was talking about, you have to figure the rack would probably fill up with bikes before you could get on.

I-Like-To-Bike

Hmmm, a survey conducted by an organization dedicated to looking for more funding for buses and other publicly funded transit. No wonder it specified "driving alone to work" as its only metric for measuring use of private auto vice public transit by the people of Seattle. As if 45% of Seattle metro area have rejected the use of automobiles in favor of using buses for all their transit needs.

Perhaps you can clarify as to who was included in the survey. It appears that only people who work in downtown office buildings were surveyed, it is unclear if any other destination is included or what the limits were on the commuters residence

Robert C

This is the reason I added my Novara Gotham to the stable. I purchased it almost entirely for mixed mode riding in SLC.

LesterOfPuppets

Yeah, Wilsonville Transit Center. Or if you don't mind a little more riding you can catch a Canby Area Transit from Oregon City to Woodburn and ride down to Salem from there. Seems like there should be Woodburn to Salem buses but I've never looked.

Filled bike racks can be a problem. I remember one Trimet bus I would catch on the east side would often have two bikes on it already, so I started riding across the river to catch it before it hit the bus mall. That way I'd have a guaranteed bike spot.

TransitBiker

In this country transit is operated by the government agency, or by a government funded public benefit corporation. The problem is that unlike other countries, we let bad policy undermine common sense. If all of the interurban and tramway lines were still operating today, you would not recognize the US, as our highways and other projects would be totally different and way less automobile centric. What i think people fail to realize is that automobiles not only cost more to own and operate than living car free, but they contribute to health issues, air quality problems and climate change.

- Andy

bragi

[QUOTE=B. Carfree;17595124]As the ORCA Lift program gets going, a program that allows Seattle-area households with incomes below 200% poverty to ride public transit for half-cost, do you think this will change public perception of Seattle's fine public transit from an essential urban amenity to something only poor people use? That would be a shame since it would likely lead to the system becoming underfunded and less effective. (I really enjoy the buses in Seattle when I'm there. I've met some wonderful people while riding them, many of whom have shared their interesting biographies with me as though we were old friends.)

I don't think it will change anything, other than to give people with limited incomes a much-needed break. It's not like our buses have been exclusively full of upper-middle class tech employees who will now have to face the horror of sharing their bus with hotel maids and retail workers. The bus is, and has been, one of the few places remaining where people of different classes actually have to look at one another when they're not working.

cooker

You said "not in many (if any) places in the US" so don't complain now that my first link only applies to one place.

You can easily click the links yourself to read the methodology, but basically they hired an independent survey firm to send questionaires to downtown Seattle office workers about their mode of transportation. The two largest responses were driving alone, and taking the bus; and carpooling etc. was included in the survey, but accounted for a tiny share, which is why it isn't mentioned in the coverage. So despite your claim that busses are a hard sell pretty well everywhere in the US, they seem to be doing well in downtown Seattle.

The second link I provided was aggregate statistics from multiple sites.