carleton

Euro Asia Imports made some starting back in 2009 or 2010: https://www.benscycle.com/p-1250-nit...lhorn-bar.aspx

EDIT: I actually purchased them from a local hipster bike shop.

carleton

They aren't the lightest...but I love 'em. I tried literally like 15 other aerobars before this (even some custom kilo bars from Naked Bikes) and these are my absolute favorites.

Baby Puke

Ah, are those the stainless ones? Sweet. Bet they are hefty!

Velocirapture

Agree on borrowing bars to try out. Especially see if you can go with different shape extensions. A lot of riders use s-bend skis, but they hurt my wrists and i feel less in control. Good to figure these things out before committing.

In terms of budget options, have a look at these Token Alloy Aero Clip-on Bars | Chain Reaction Cycles.

Velocirapture

A question on TP change-overs:

I've been taught and have always done changeovers that start just as you've gone through eg turn 1, swing up hard and fairly high, and quick back down again, in basically a parabolic shape. Works well for me. My pursuit team for our upcoming Nats has decided on a changeover where rider 1 starts to move up to the red line/ sprinters line as they approach the turn. Just before the turn rider 1 moves above the red line while rider 2 starts to move through underneath essentially through the turn. Rider 1 continues up in a much shallower, longer curve, not as high, coming back down just before or around about turn 2.

Anyone have experience with this type of changeover, and can talk about pros and cons? At the moment i'm not loving it, but perhaps that's just lack of familiarity. Feels like i'm hanging out in the wind longer :-/

dunderhi

I've only done the latter technique, but as far as staying tight or swinging up I think it depends on a couple of factors: Indoor vs. outdoor and rider style/ability. For indoor, I think staying tight is the most energy efficient and consistent level of effort around the track. On a outdoor track, staying tight may help shelter your teammates from the head/cross winds - that is if you position your changeovers with the wind in mind. The other major factor is if you are at the limit, which at that point a high swing uptrack offers a couple of seconds of reprieve from the all-out effort. A points racer would probably prefer to swing up while a pursuiter would probably prefer to stay tight.

Which method did you use yesterday?

Velocirapture

Yesterday we used the staying tight method (indoor 250m track, 42 deg and shortish turns). i was on my limit, and had to fight a gap a few times... I'm a points racer though, and your comment on that makes a lot of sense to me - the changes definitely felt harder to me than swinging up.
We'll be racing on an outdoor, 457m track with fairly shallow banking. (1600m above sea level though, so its a fast track). Sounds like staying tight might be better on that track.

queerpunk

I do a fierce pull-off. I see some people pull off right at the apex of the turn, evenly between turn 1 and 2. I think this is often too late, and they come back down with difficulty. I pull off earlier, still solidly in turn 1.

However, there's something to a shallower pull-off - but it's less about what happens to the pulling-off rider and his/her path, and more about what happens right at the moment of the pull off.

In team pursuits, I start a pull-off by drifting from the pursuit line to the sprint line. This lets the rider behind me get his power output up to eating-wind level a bit more gradually. This is good. It makes sure that somebody ramps up their power to keep the speed steady, and it ensures that they don't really punch it and cause groans to come from behind. I think it's a really helpful technique.

Once I've hovered at the red line for a second I do a fierce up-track-and-down, because that's better for my legs, faster for me to get back on, and uses the banking to accomplish that.

rndstr

I have to buy a new frame (finally managed to crack the seat clamp) and will likely get the same. I considered going one size smaller (52cm) but now I'm back at thinking that 54cm was a good fit.

Any input on frame size is appreciated: (sorry for crappy angles but that's all I found)


Another one with even worse angle: https://i.imgur.com/uncpumQ.jpg

Bonus question - How do I make these aero clip-on bars work with this frame size? https://i.imgur.com/V2VWbV7.jpg
I presume that the padding should be further back, almost snug with my elbows. Should I just move the aero bars further back? Increase my elbow angle (from currently ~100°)? I've read 2cm shorter stem? Move saddle forward (it's already full forward on setback post, I have an inline post now, though)? Lower torso?

carleton

The frame definitely shouldn't be smaller. Your knees are already touching your elbows. I don't think that one's hands should be under the head. That seems to be a roadie thing. But, that's just me. I think they should be further out. If your hands are in close to start with, when you stand up your body will be way over the front wheel.

Regarding aerobars: The rule of thumb is to have your elbows under your ear as a common check. Also, your forearms should be on the pads, not your elbows. So, just like you are in the photo.

Generally, people use a stem that is around 2cm shorter when using aerobars because your hands will be much further forward. From that photo, it looks like your bar extensions are really far forward of the front axle, which may violate bike dimension rules (if you plan on racing events where that is relevant).

What is your height and pant inseam length?

rndstr

Great, thanks for the concise feedback carleton.
174cm and 82cm.

I did use the competitivecyclist.com calculator yesterday and I realized that on my previous measure a few months back I had some numbers wrong. So I went from a suggested 52cm to 55cm. That threw me off a bit. My beater bike is a 55cm with short stem and it feels too big

Velocirapture

Thanks. Sounds like a best-of-both. Think i'll give it a try

carleton

The competitive cyclist calculator is:

1) For people who cannot get to a bike shop to try on bikes for size.
2) For roadies.
3) A way for an online shop to sell bikes online without having to make a brick and mortar store

Your profile states that you are located in Zurich, Switzerland. Just go to a bike shop and sit on bikes of various sizes and see what works. Take photos. Refer to the geometry charts on the manufacturer's website. The listed Top Tube length may be different than the bikes "size" label. For example, a Trek "60cm" may actually have a 58cm top tube. The Reach value is great for comparing frames. Much more independent than Top Tube length.

Can you take a photo of yourself on your beater bike directly from the side while in the drops? Lean against a wall or something?

Remember, feel may not be the best indicator of the best fit. Our comfort can and will adjust to most positions. That's why it is advised to give a new bike fitting, bars, crank length, etc... a week or two before abandoning them if they feel wrong. Your supporting muscles simply may not be ready for a new position immediately. A photo is a much better way to determine this. A video is even better.

rndstr

Interesting, Reach makes more sense indeed, since the BB is a fix point on a frame. Seems like finding that spec isn't too easy on some frames, though.

I'm pretty sure my beater fitting has a handful of issues. It starts with having a saddle I'm not happy with. This makes me move forward so it doesn't crush my balls which leads to moving it higher than it's supposed to be. I have yet to install the inline seat post I just got which might improves things. It's not really a priority I'm pursuing right now, though.

I will get the cracked seat post fixed by dolan and buy a planet x pro frame. I'll just get the recommended one for my height and see how that fits once it's here.

carleton

You are exactly right. The bottom bracket is the zero point from which the entire bike is measured, designed, and built. There is a school of thought that thinks that Stack and Reach should be included in all geometry diagrams as they are centered on the BB. Here is why:



Also, bikes used to be designed "square", meaning that a "55cm square" frame has a 55cm seat tube length and 55cm top tube length. Now with compact geometries and whatnot, "55cm" could refer to the seat tube length OR the top tube length. For example, the "60cm" Trek T1 has a 58cm top tube.

I believe that Japanese keirin frames are measured based on seat tube.

Also, when you adjust your saddle/seatpost you are adding or removing seat top effective tube length and changing your effective seat tube angle...but the reach forward of the bottom bracket stays the same

Reach is reach.

It seems that over the past 2-3 years, bike manufacturers have been adding Stack and Reach to their geo charts.

OK. Just remember, a little research and trying bikes on for size can save you hundreds of dollars/pounds. Of all the components of a bicycle, the frame is the most difficult and often the most expensive to swap out.

taras0000

Don't order based on your height! You already mentioned/learned that Reach is the most important aspect in determining frame size, but you go against that information when you order based on height. Your measurements that matter are inseam (measured from floor to crotch), torso length (measured from crotch to clavicular notch), and arm length (measured from the bony protruberence on your shoulder to a pencil grasped in your outstretched wrist). It is best to order based on your torso/arm length. The top tube/stem has less availability/adjustability for length changes than the seat tube/seat post. Order by top tube length/reach.

You might want to re-read what carleton mentioned. The reach is more important than the "frame size". There are certain frames that I would never ride because of my build. I have a long torso that makes up my 6' height. Short seat tubes and long top tubes are what I need. I may ride a "smaller" frame, but it's longer than most.

rndstr

I have been aware for a while that effective tt matters and that frame size numbers are arbitrary.

I'm starting off with the assumption that my TC fit is good. Here another photo from the side but which has z-axis skew since I was riding in the banking. But I think it's less misleading than the one I wore the yellow shirt. And a closeup of the setup I've been riding for more than 1000km.

EDIT: I re-measured the reach and posted findings in next post.
[I did check the efftt, it is 1cm shorter on the recommended PX (Size small) than my TC (Size 54). I measured the reach on the TC manually and it came out about the same as the PX (+-1cm measuring error).]

How do I get from these measurements to numbers I can read off a geometry chart?
[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]actual inseam[/TD]
[TD]82cm[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]trunk[/TD]
[TD]65cm[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]forearm[/TD]
[TD]36cm[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]arm[/TD]
[TD]60cm[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]thigh[/TD]
[TD]59cm[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]lower leg[/TD]
[TD]57cm[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]sternal notch[/TD]
[TD]142cm[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]height[/TD]
[TD]174cm[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


I might be either a PX small or a medium but the differences are too small for me to make an educated guess. It's either -1cm efftt (small) or +1cm efftt (medium).

Maybe figuring out whether my torso+arm is over or under average would help deciding since I presume PX is recommending according to averages.

Velocirapture

The photo of you on the banking is not ideal, as you are on the top of the bar, making it difficult to get a proper idea of the fit. That said, to me it looks like that bike might even be on the slightly-to-small side. I definitely wouldn't go smaller. You'll be all crunched up and over the front.

Any reason you're spending all this time on online calculators and frame geo drawings, and not just going to try 'em out? If its not easy for you to try track bikes out (even those of your buddies), maybe use the dimensions you've found, and try a few road bikes with the equivalent reaches so you get an idea of the feel, if not the full deal?

rndstr

I re-measured reach on both the Leader and Dolan. I also installed the inline seat post on the leader, allowing the saddle (which I switched to a flat saddle) to move more forward which resulted into a much much more comfortable ride. That 'too big frame' feeling was gone.

So, the setups are now as following:
Leader: reach=~44cm, stem=8cm
Dolan: reach=~42cm, stem=10cm

Which would mean if I get the PX small (39.8cm reach), I need a 12cm stem. And if I get the medium (41.2cm reach) I will have approximately the same setup as the Dolan. Assuming the saddle-to-bar drop is the same (which is not the case for the leader which has a less aggressive drop).

So these numbers point more to a medium I assume?


(Maybe I should've created a separate thread in the first place. Any mod, feel free to do so if the forum software allows it )

We don't really have any shops with (proper) track bikes around here. And as I've learned it's not essentially about comfort in the first place so if I go sit on road bikes with certain reach I still don't know afterwards what's right for me. And I will have trust issues with bike mechanics that give me fit recommendations when they don't sell track bikes.
The Dolan fit felt right.

Velocirapture

Cool cool. Makes sense. Send a photo in the drops.

carleton

rndstr,

You wrote asking for advice.

ADVICE:
Your bike is on the small side but rideable. You should probably go up one size (+2cm Top Tube). Going up 1cm is pointless.

Most people can ride 2 frame sizes (i.e. 56 or 58cm, OR 54 or 56cm) with one size being optimal and the other usable. It seems like you are at the bottom of your range with your current frame. Optimal seems to be one increment up.

PRus

Heading to Florida for a few days and if timing works out visiting Brian Piccolo Park & Velodrome for Novice night.
First time on a track bike.
Use just sneakers with the rental bike or bring my bike shoes and Keogh pedals?
Thanks for your input.

Brian Ratliff

Bring your shoes, pedals and helmet.

PRus

Thanks Brian, looking forward to try the "track adventure".

carleton

Is novice night a race night or a intro class?

Usually Novice/Beginner/Rookie nights are for people who have completed the beginner class and they all race with each other for a few weeks or months.

If this is your first time on a track bike, that implies that you haven't done the beginner's course. If that's the case, you certainly shouldn't be racing. Nothing personal.