Stucky

Hah! I used to sell police Interceptors online for a client- Thought about driving one myself, but was repulsed by the idea of looking like a cop [I hate cops!]. The PI's are awesome cars- better in many ways than many sports/performance cars. When getting one, it's often just the luck of the draw though as to whether or not they've been driven hard, and how scrupulously they were maintained.

One of my current vehicles is a '98 full-size Ford van with almost 300K miles on it- I've had it for 15 years. Had over 200K on it when I got it. It was owned by a worker transport company, who must have been OCD asbout maintenance, 'cause it's been the most reliable vehicle I've ever owned. I've replaced the fuel pump and heater core on it...that's it! It still runs like new- I'd like to see how long it'd go, but I think I'm finally going to sell it, as it's getting pretty ratty. Sounds like your E320 is just getting broken-in! [Topslop rushes to window, yelling "Hey! Get away from my car!!!" ]

vinfix

If a bike had a motor, like a boat, motorcycle, or snowmobile, people wouldn't think twice about the price. It's just that bicycles are considered not much more than kid's toys (or middle aged men!).

But road bikes HAVE gotten a lot more expensive, and are obsolete much faster, than they used to be. The Campy equipped Italian race bike I bought for $900 in 1979, adjusted for inflation, would be $3145 now. But now that will only get you an Ultegra equipped mid-level carbon bike. And a bike bought 10 years ago would likely be only 8-9 speeds, and not full carbon.

jefnvk

Not so much that I think of it as a toy, rather that if one can manufacture and assemble far more complex motorized vehicles requiring far more resources for cheaper, I question if I truly am paying for value or hype, and question why exactly the bike company can't (or won't) price their products cheaper.

Crewchief911

Just ride it. I'm not fond of people who think I should have spent a fortune for a bike because it isn't as good as the new hi-tech bikes, but I see nothing wrong with spending 7000 for one if that's what you wanted and had the means to afford it. Enjoy riding!

maartendc

You could get hit by a cement truck tomorrow, so why not spend your money now? SPEND IT!!

topslop1

^full disclosure this guy owns multiple LBS.

Or worse you get hit by the cement truck, live, and have $XXX,XXX medical bills accrued that you'll never be able to pay back.

You could also not save nearly enough money for retirement and end up:

1. living off of your children (if you have any)
2. having to take work or part time work that could be incredibly painful to deal with if you had any sort of ailments at old age.
3. End up on the state's resources at end of life (not a personal goal of mine).

SAVE IT!

(this concludes the most unpopular and non-fun-spirited post I've done yet).

maartendc

Sjeesh, you're no fun!

Seriously though, many middle-class people spend a lot of money on hobbies, whether it be a sport, fixing old-timer cars, Collecting action figures, etc. Yes, $7000 is a lot of money for a bicycle, but it will last for years. So if you have the money to spare after providing you and you're families' basic needs: why not?

I saw some people on a thread once debate getting a $5000 bike on a down payment plan. Now that is absolute lunacy to me. If you can't afford to pay for it in full, don't get a $5000 bike, get a nice second-hand older bike that will do just fine! It just depends on your financial situation I guess, whether or not that is a good idea.

topslop1

We just beat to death financing and leasing cars etc. Don't start up the financing of a bicycle now....

dr_lha

Sorry but I don't buy this argument. There's nothing wrong with credit, the world runs on it. I can't afford to buy a house or my car outright too, but I can afford payments, because I get paid monthly, not it a lump sum that covers the rest of my working life. Why not pay for things like bikes this way too? I grew up poor and the only way we could have anything was through credit, TVs, washing machines. I guess we should have just not had those things because "credit is bad, mmkay?"

jefnvk

It is a difference between "need" and "want". Few people can buy a house outright, and there is something to be said about building equity in your property over paying to rent. For most of America, a car is an inevitable necessity. I know there are ways one can get around it, but it is a simple reality of society that we have setup a system where a car is required for the vast majority of people. Again, a large portion of the population can't go out and plop down cash for a decently functional vehicle. Now, there is certainly something to be said about not going out and spending extraordinary amounts of money on a vehicle, even if you are approved for a much higher line of credit than you need to get a decent vehicle.

Unless your occupation requires you to ride a bike, for most people a bike purchase falls in the category of "wants". Credit in and of itself is not necessarily bad, but using it to buy wants that you could not otherwise afford tends to point towards a lifestyle that is not financially balanced. I bought an engagement ring on credit. I had the cash sitting in savings, saved for the purpose of buying it, but I was offered one year 0% financing, and chose to leave that money sitting in savings. In that case, credit was not a bad thing. How it would have been bad is if the salesman convinced me I needed much more ring than the (hopefully) fiancee-to-be liked, I spent more than I could afford buying on credit, and was now facing four years of minimum payments at 20% APR.

maartendc

Well, I agree with you on a certain level. You can buy things on credit that's fine. Most people buy a house on credit, a lot of people buy a car on credit. But let's be real, a house and a car are objectively things most people NEED to live their lives. If you can't buy a car or a washing machine outright, that's fine, most people would agree those are not "frivolous expenses" but things that you NEED to have a certain basic life quality.

Nobody really NEEDS a $7000 bike. You can ride just fine on a $500 bike, or $1000 bike. So for me whether it is "a good idea" to get a $7000 bike depends on whether you can afford it easily or not. Just my opinion.

Everybody deals with money the way they see fit, so this is really a silly discussion.

dr_lha

Right, and most people don't need more than a 4-door sedan, but that doesn't stop them buying a Suburban does it?

My main point is that buying something on credit does not mean you can't afford it. If you can afford to make the payments, you can afford it, and there's nothing wrong with that.

wphamilton

Nothing against how you managed your money (none of my business) but this is not a true statement. If I or anyone could afford the credit card payments, I could also afford to put that same amount aside and purchase that item when a sufficient sum as accumulated. It has the drawback of delaying gratification, but is a superior method in almost every other respect. Including more affordable.

jefnvk

Just because a lot of people do it, does not make it intelligent. I regularly get pre-approvals from local dealerships for up to $40k in a car, doesn't mean I'm not doing just fine with my $5k 7 year old Fusion. Just because you can afford the payments now, does not mean you will continue to be able to do so.

In the end, your finances are your own. You won't convince me that spending more than you could pay in cash for anything but an emergency situation on anything that is a want is an intelligent decision, just like I won't convince you that buying wants you can't outright afford on a payment plan is a silly idea.

dr_lha

Yes, you can save up for things. However, saving plans have sh*tty interest rates right now, lower than the rate of inflation, so are generally a bad idea as you're essentially just losing money by putting it in a savings account. Saving right now is a mugs game.

Also are you saying that my parents should have delayed gratification on buying a washing machine? So in that case they would have been saving money while also spending money at a local laudromat?

wphamilton

House, car, washing machine, bike all boil down to how the individual's resources match up with his priorities. Whether anyone needs any of those things, as if a binary choice, isn't really determinant. He may prioritize having a house over a fancier car, for example, or over a washing machine, if his resources cannot accommodate both. He could likely get along without any of them, there being alternatives belying the absolute necessity.

What makes it silly is if we start constraining choices by "need" when what we're really talking about is other people's priorities.

dr_lha

Right I agree, but I'm not talking about irresponsible use of credit. I'm talking about using credit that you can afford. I have a secure job that pays me a set amount every month. I know what I can afford to pay monthly.

My point is that there is nothing wrong with the responsible use of credit. People do it all the time, but for some reason they draw a line at things they think aren't important. So it's OK to buy a fancy car and big house on credit, but not a bike because that's not important. Essentially it's the same argument that started this thread about people being able to justify paying $7000 on a bike to others.

For the record, BTW, I have never bought a bike on credit. I just don't choose to judge those who do poorly, as long as they can afford it in the end, just like I can afford my mortgage and car payment.

jefnvk

You are losing far more money on the promotional 10% APR that Trek is offering right now, and a gross deal more on the 25.24% regular rate, than you are on having money in savings.

I don't either, so long as they don't come out and insist on convincing others that their way is the right way. Once you put your financial decisions out in the public, you are welcoming scrutiny and disagreement.

dr_lha

OK, but you get the bike today, not in 5 years time. For some the extra cost will be worth that. 10% APR is clearly a lot more than you'd pay for a car loan. 25.24% seems excessive to me, I pay much less than that on my credit card. I guess bike loans suck.

jefnvk

Then again, in five years when you have the thing paid off it'll no longer be the latest and greatest, and you'll have to upgrade, starting the whole process again

dr_lha

5 years of biking, making you healthier and cutting your medical bills!

wphamilton

Does credit have better interest rates than savings? I seriously doubt it, not until you get into the kinds of financial instruments which would moot the question.

Yes, if it was a matter of affordability, they'd have been better off delaying the purchase and spending money at a laundromat in the interim. I can't speak of other considerations (since I know nothing of them) which may have made the purchases on credit more attractive.

One thing that most people seem to miss, is that you're not delaying the purchase on everything. Just up to a point. If I put one years worth of anticipated credit card payments into an account instead, it cost me one year of not buying stuff. Subsequently spending from that account for a washing machine, TV and so on, while repaying into that account (instead of to Visa) no longer constitutes any delay. But there are no interest charges, no fees, no costly mistakes, and from there on out it's functionally the same as a credit card with a limit equal to whatever level the account was funded to.

I had a self-funded visa card with my bank which I used this way. The bank eventually "upgraded" it to a credit card (without asking me), because they wanted eventual interest, fees and other revenue from it. I am the one who will ultimately provide that revenue - a good deal for the bank, not financially wise for me.

jefnvk

Regularly riding my $27, 38 year old Le Tour tank will strengthen me far more than that that lightweight $7k wonderbike!

Hmm, that'd be a helluva thread: The futility of convincing bikers I can have as much fun on my $27 thrift shop find as they do on their space-age carbon tech!

I-Like-To-Bike

Is your "self-funded visa card" just another name for a bank issued debit card that is connected to your own checking and savings account?

wphamilton

No, it is (or was) actually a secured credit card. You fund it ahead of time to the "credit limit" that you select, and now it's no different than any other credit card except that you're out the initial security. And you get it back if you close the card. There is a fee involved, and it is usually utilized to repair poor credit ratings which is the main advantage (if it IS an advantage) over using a debit card to an account set aside for that purpose.