Will 31mm super wide wheels become the new standard?
10-09-16, 11:47 AM
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 794
Bikes: '11 Merlin Extralight, '98 Dean Castanza, '89 Schwinn Prologue
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Will 31mm super wide wheels become the new standard?
Thoughts? I suspect wider tires/wheels is far more beneficial than a stiffer frame for efficiency.
The new Enve wheels are 31mm outer width, incredible.
The new Enve wheels are 31mm outer width, incredible.
10-09-16, 11:56 AM
#2
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 39,100
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Mentioned: 141 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5998 Post(s)
Liked 2,939 Times
in
1,629 Posts
IMO it's just another fad and will pass after enough consumers spend big bucks.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
10-09-16, 12:38 PM
#6
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 28,682
Bikes: 1990 Romic Reynolds 531 custom build, Merlin Works CR Ti custom build, super light Workswell 066 custom build
Mentioned: 110 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6556 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 58 Times
in
36 Posts
10-09-16, 12:52 PM
#7
On Your Left
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Long Island, New York, USA
Posts: 8,373
Bikes: Trek Emonda SLR, Sram eTap, Zipp 303
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3004 Post(s)
Liked 2,434 Times
in
1,187 Posts
I have 25mm on my road bike and 32mm on my CX. Each serves a purpose and I see no reason a 32 will work on a road bike.
10-09-16, 12:58 PM
#8
Banned
It is Not standard, you can make your own choices..
Im guessing some could say at the high end trend followers have, because of disc brakes, blurred the line between
a disc road bike with the capacity to accept wider tires and a cyclo cross/gravel bike that already had such tire width option, and then some.
'/,
Im guessing some could say at the high end trend followers have, because of disc brakes, blurred the line between
a disc road bike with the capacity to accept wider tires and a cyclo cross/gravel bike that already had such tire width option, and then some.
'/,
Last edited by fietsbob; 10-09-16 at 01:07 PM.
10-09-16, 01:21 PM
#9
Senior Member
10-09-16, 01:38 PM
#10
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Wherever I am
Posts: 8,723
Bikes: Merlin Cyrene, Nashbar steel CX
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4823 Post(s)
Liked 1,557 Times
in
1,021 Posts
What I don't comprehend is why, even 10yrs+ ago, all of this couldn't easily be scientifically figured out, what with power meters, wind tunnels, etc.. etc... exactly what works best?
10-09-16, 01:55 PM
#12
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Northern California
Posts: 10,879
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 104 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times
in
5 Posts
We're not going to have any new road bike wheel standards (even for recreational road bikes) until the UCI makes a final decision about disk brakes
10-09-16, 01:55 PM
#13
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 28,682
Bikes: 1990 Romic Reynolds 531 custom build, Merlin Works CR Ti custom build, super light Workswell 066 custom build
Mentioned: 110 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6556 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 58 Times
in
36 Posts
10-09-16, 01:59 PM
#14
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 28,682
Bikes: 1990 Romic Reynolds 531 custom build, Merlin Works CR Ti custom build, super light Workswell 066 custom build
Mentioned: 110 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6556 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 58 Times
in
36 Posts
Agreed. Put a motor with an ammeter on the crank and place the bike on a dynamometer. Two drums, one smooth and one rough. Vary tire width and inflation to optimize speed at a fixed amperage (which corresponds to power) or optimize amperage st a fixed speed. What could be easier?
Last edited by rpenmanparker; 10-09-16 at 02:06 PM.
10-09-16, 02:04 PM
#15
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 28,682
Bikes: 1990 Romic Reynolds 531 custom build, Merlin Works CR Ti custom build, super light Workswell 066 custom build
Mentioned: 110 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6556 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 58 Times
in
36 Posts
Doesn't matter. On a dynamometer you don't need brakes. Yes, the optimum tire width might not be accessable on a given frame with the brakes provided, but that doesn't mean you cannot find out what would be best and moreover what is the absolute relationship between tire width/inflation and efficiency . Then folks could equip their bikes with the best tires that would fit. Maybe not the absolute best, but the best that would work on that bike.
10-09-16, 02:18 PM
#16
Senior Member
Wide tires. Even after the last ten years, a lot of roadies will look at you like you're crazy if you talk about getting decent performance on a road bike with wide tires. It seems like there's still a knee-jerk reaction against it throughout a large portion of the market.
What makes it tricky is that you need the bike to be mostly free-floating. If it's rigidly locked in place, the suspension will drive flexed power back into forward motion better than it does in reality. Lots of steel drum tests use rough drums and fail to reproduce the BQ or Silca real-world results.
If you have a bike on some rollers with a rider balancing things, and you measure the motor wattage needed to roll the drums at a certain rate, this might be an okay approximation. I'd want to see it reproduce the real-world road data before standing by that statement, though.
Also, this method still wouldn't work as an end-all perfect optimization, since it doesn't take other effects like aero into account.
If you have a bike on some rollers with a rider balancing things, and you measure the motor wattage needed to roll the drums at a certain rate, this might be an okay approximation. I'd want to see it reproduce the real-world road data before standing by that statement, though.
Also, this method still wouldn't work as an end-all perfect optimization, since it doesn't take other effects like aero into account.
10-09-16, 02:18 PM
#17
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 18,138
Bikes: 2 many
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1266 Post(s)
Liked 323 Times
in
169 Posts
Part of the reason may be that you need disk brakes to fit the tires when they get wide enough. None of my road bikes would fit a 28 mm tire. Easy to fix but....must be sold to the public before making a lot of bikes this way.
Maybe this has already been tested and the results were not accepted or were not believed, or just not published in the right places. Some manufacturers don't want to change tooling on what they are already selling a lot of..
10-09-16, 02:27 PM
#18
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 28,682
Bikes: 1990 Romic Reynolds 531 custom build, Merlin Works CR Ti custom build, super light Workswell 066 custom build
Mentioned: 110 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6556 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 58 Times
in
36 Posts
Wide tires. Even after the last ten years, a lot of roadies will look at you like you're crazy if you talk about getting decent performance on a road bike with wide tires. It seems like there's still a knee-jerk reaction against it throughout a large portion of the market.
What makes it tricky is that you need the bike to be mostly free-floating. If it's rigidly locked in place, the suspension will drive flexed power back into forward motion better than it does in reality. Lots of steel drum tests use rough drums and fail to reproduce the BQ or Silca real-world results.
If you have a bike on some rollers with a rider balancing things, and you measure the motor wattage needed to roll the drums at a certain rate, this might be an okay approximation. I'd want to see it reproduce the real-world road data before standing by that statement, though.
Also, this method still wouldn't work as an end-all perfect optimization, since it doesn't take other effects like aero into account.
What makes it tricky is that you need the bike to be mostly free-floating. If it's rigidly locked in place, the suspension will drive flexed power back into forward motion better than it does in reality. Lots of steel drum tests use rough drums and fail to reproduce the BQ or Silca real-world results.
If you have a bike on some rollers with a rider balancing things, and you measure the motor wattage needed to roll the drums at a certain rate, this might be an okay approximation. I'd want to see it reproduce the real-world road data before standing by that statement, though.
Also, this method still wouldn't work as an end-all perfect optimization, since it doesn't take other effects like aero into account.
Last edited by rpenmanparker; 10-09-16 at 02:39 PM.
10-09-16, 02:38 PM
#19
Senior Member
If we're willing to use seat stay brake mounts, there are quality centerpulls out there that can comfortably handle 40mm tires with full-length fenders, and if we're going to completely throw away our sanity, v-brakes and centerpull cantis allow you to get away with basically anything.
53mm tires with fenders and tons and tons of clearance:
But, discs certainly simplify the matter.
10-09-16, 02:40 PM
#20
Senior Member
Data does exist btw, just need to go look for it.
10-09-16, 02:46 PM
#21
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 39,100
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Mentioned: 141 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5998 Post(s)
Liked 2,939 Times
in
1,629 Posts
Because 'exactly what works best' depends on conditions. On smooth surfaces narrow tires at high pressures offer the least resistance. Lower pressures are better at absorbing energy from small obstacles and thus avoiding vertical accelerations on the bicycle. If there are a lot of these small obstacles, then it will be better to minimize these energy losses over minimizing the rolling resistance. If the road is perfectly smooth, stick to narrow and high pressure.
Data does exist btw, just need to go look for it.
Data does exist btw, just need to go look for it.
There's plenty of science, but for questions like this we have to look to the art of applying that science most effectively.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
10-09-16, 02:52 PM
#22
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 28,682
Bikes: 1990 Romic Reynolds 531 custom build, Merlin Works CR Ti custom build, super light Workswell 066 custom build
Mentioned: 110 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6556 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 58 Times
in
36 Posts
Because 'exactly what works best' depends on conditions. On smooth surfaces narrow tires at high pressures offer the least resistance. Lower pressures are better at absorbing energy from small obstacles and thus avoiding vertical accelerations on the bicycle. If there are a lot of these small obstacles, then it will be better to minimize these energy losses over minimizing the rolling resistance. If the road is perfectly smooth, stick to narrow and high pressure.
Data does exist btw, just need to go look for it.
Data does exist btw, just need to go look for it.
10-09-16, 02:53 PM
#23
Senior Member
Add to that even under the identical conditions the results will vary with tires. Supple tires with thin treads don't suffer as much in flex loss as tires with thicker walls, belts under the tread or simply thicker treads. So a tire type and width best suited for racing may be very different than one best suited for touring or general purpose.
There's plenty of science, but for questions like this we have to look to the art of applying that science most effectively.
There's plenty of science, but for questions like this we have to look to the art of applying that science most effectively.
10-09-16, 02:54 PM
#24
Senior Member
Interestingly, rolling resistance actually incorporates the effects of road imperfections. Rolling resistance is not just friction but includes every source of power loss at the wheel-road interface. So there are frictional contributions to Crr as well as disconnections between the wheel and the road causing an increase in Crr.
10-09-16, 02:58 PM
#25
Senior Member
It's also hard to completely include the effects of road imperfections when using a rough drum. Tests like bicyclerollingresistance don't see the kinds of results that Silca or Bicycle Quarterly got even though they use a surface made from diamond-plate steel.