NoShiftSherlock

Howdy!

Gearing up for a touring trip and curious how the fit looks. To give context, everything feels okay EXCEPT my lower back. When I hit 20ish miles my lower back tends to get a pain in it. Starting with fit here hoping someone can spot something. If fit looks good, I'd be happy to learn of any exercises for core/lower back strength and stretches. Thanks a ton!

10 Wheels

Saddle is too high

NoShiftSherlock

Hm. Wouldn't think that. I ran a ruler with a level from saddle to bars and they're pretty even. I did the heel at the bottom of the pedal stroke method and was able to extend it all the way. I DID notice my hip falling into it though. Should it when doing the heel method or should my hips not rock when heel is at the bottom?

DrIsotope

Hips should definitely not rock. Dropping your hips will definitely give you back pain. So will too long of a reach, but that doesn't look like an issue in the photo.

NoShiftSherlock

Apologies! I don't think I was clear. Hips don't rock when actually pedaling - but only when I do the heel at bottom of pedal stroke fitting technique.

IK_biker

Move the saddle farther aft. At lest 2 cm, more likely 3.
Your would have to lower it adequately as well in order to be comfortable with the change above.
Leave handlebar where it's at for now.

Hips should not rock during the "heel" test either.

NoShiftSherlock

I'll first try lowering my saddle some. The heel test definitely has my hip go down along with my leg so.

berner

You've probably tried lowering the saddle already but I would agree with 10Wheels it seems to be a bit high. I would also ask you to consider that the reach could be a bit longer. Either a slightly longer stem or move the seat back a bit. Knee over the pedal spindle is not altogether an 'old wives tale'. It is instead a good starting point. Basically, if the saddle position is about correct, there will be very little pressure on your hands and the back will feel comfortable.

Plus it never hurts to strengthen the core. Core muscles not only give us our upright posture but also assist in breathing.

NoShiftSherlock

I moved my saddle down about a centimeter or so and FAR less back pain. A VERY slight top knee pain in my left leg and I only noticed it when I pushed a higher gear. I actually think it's a mix of me not being on the hoods correctly and I tend to point my toe down during pedal rotation. Trying to keep it level through the pedal stroke.

Leisesturm

They shouldn't rock there either... but that wasn't why I posted. Back pain... do you plank? How many crunches can you perform before your ab muscles fail? Work your plank up to around 2 min, and be able to perform 200 crunches and you cannot have back pain. FWIW.


two hundred sit-ups

Dave Cutter

If I sit too upright... the bumps, and jolts kill my back. I have to remember to lean forward.

You're close to the basic fit now that you've lowerd your saddle.... start with the pedals and work your way up. Cleats, saddle fore/aft. Then make sure the saddle is level.... or near level if you prefer some slight tilt.

Get the reach correct. It's OK if you like the handlebars level with the saddle... but the bars lower than the saddle will feel better. With you arms in the drops... your view of the (front wheels) axle should be blocked by the handlebars (more-or-less). You don't want your head to be far forward or far behind the bars... even with your hands on the hoods.

Keep your elbows bent... your weight should be on your arms... NOT on your hands or shoulders.

Road Fan

It sounds good. Can you show another picture like the first, but taken after lowering your saddle?

Most advice recommends edging your saddle down a few mm per step. It's easy to go too far, and the resulting problem is too much tension in front of the knee, with kneecap and possibly tendon pain. Those can lead to knee injury, which is certainly bad news. Just a caution that one should be aware of. You might never have this problem.

Also, saddle fore-aft position can be important. If you ride with your hands normally on the bars the way you usually ride, and then lift them up, do you have a lot of effort to keep your torso in the same position? This is a matter of core and back strength, but also a matter of fore-aft balance. Edging the saddle back just a few mm can make a noticeable difference, but be aware of changes in saddle contact pressure as you make this change. This is also in part what KOPS (plumb line from knee to pedal spindle) tests. There are no hard rules, but a lot of touring riders like the knee to be one or two cm behind the pedal axis.

These things should be considered before looking more deeply at saddle - handlebar drop or reach to the levers.

ptempel

Here's a decent page on basic fit: Bike Fit Fitting A Bicycle Seat Adjustment Height Reach Tips by Jim Langley For the saddle height, I just start with 83% on my inseam from floor to chamois (wearing socks). Also try the knee over pedal spindle method for the saddle fore and aft position in the article. If you have the money, then just get a good bike fit from a guy recommended to you. It would make it easier and also use your flexability to help determine stem and bar position.

NoShiftSherlock

Sure! Here's an updated photo (sorry for the tree!)



For this fit my right leg is perfectly comfortable with no pain, discomfort, etc. Arms are good, neck felt great, etc. BUT my left leg had a slight throbbing right above the knee soooo I think it may be a cleat positioning issue. I'm a bit worried to higher the saddle for fear it'll throw it back into back pain city. The good news is I tested this doing about 18ish miles and the back pain was pretty well gone.


Plumb line puts it right on the spindle if not just a TOUCH in front of.
Angle from ankle up to my hip is ~140 degrees on the nose.
Back angle is about ~50-55 degrees

I guess the only thing I can think of is moving from a 80mm to a 90mm stem and seeing if I can stretch out a bit more?

fietsbob

Looks OK to Me , how does it feel?

NoShiftSherlock

So much better on that bottom picture. Moved my cleat just a touch in and it relieved the knee pain! No other real pain to think of currently but may need to test it on a longer ride.

fietsbob

Havent screwed any SPuD type Pedals on my bike in decades , The lack of float and forcing the knees
into an un natural angle may cause issues ..

YMMV of course.

Road Fan

I have zero experience with pedal adjustments. I use platform-type with toe clips and straps, but I never tighten the straps and do not use cleats, so my feet always have float.

It's good that things are feeling better, but I would suggest you try to slide the saddle back. You look too far forward. When you slide it back, try to keep the original tilt - it's easy to lose the tilt. After you do that, look again at heel-on the pedal - you will probably need to lower the saddle a few millimeters. Make sure both of your feet are hanging free when you check if your heel is touching the pedal.

Carbonfiberboy 

I think the saddle could go a bit lower, until your foot is level at the bottom of the stroke.

Stand normally, maybe take a step or two, then look down at your feet. How do they point? Do they point the same way when you're on the bike? Your normal foot position should be in the center of your pedal float. Rotate your cleats on your shoes until that's true.

The real test for saddle height is climbing. When you're powering up a climb, do you have good strength pulling back at the bottom of the stroke? Hamstrings feel good there?

sumgy

Agreed.
Straight away saddle is too high.
Bars may also be too high and reach too short.

Bike fit for dummies:

Get pedal in correct position: BEHIND ball of foot. Often this is cleats slammed all the way back.
Get saddle height in correct position: while pedalling in a slightly bigger gear than needed pedal up a hill. The pedal stroke needs to feel circular rather than up and down and there should be no "snapping"/sudden acceleration of the knee. Keep lowering it until it feels awkward then raise again until it starts snapping.
Get saddle setback right: you should not feel like you are using your quads or hamstrings more than the other.
If you feel your hamstrings then move the saddle forward. If you feel your quads then move the saddle back.

When reaching for the bars you should not feel pressure through your back or neck.

sumgy

Saddle is too high still.

sumgy

Bingo.
You cannot exert power when you have your toe pointed.

NoShiftSherlock

Will lower it another cm and see what that does. Thanks!

sumgy

Cleats first.
Then seat height and then saddle setback.