reppans

You might have missed this:


Reminds of me the pesky woodpeckers and chipmunks around here that just love to burrow into my home - hello .22 air rifle w/ scope. If you have large shoulders to ride in, and just need to get to used to the massive trucks and huge speed differentials of 55mph passes, then that's one thing, but if the OP is forcing regular commuters to cross the double yellow on high-speed through routes, then I can easily see real hostility building up. In an urban/suburban area where the speed limit is ~30 mph, it's no big deal for a car to slow to ~20 to wait for a safe pass over the double yellow, but if traffic on a through route is pushing 50, then a 20mph bicyclist becomes a real PITA speed bump (hopefully not literally).

Technically the OP has the right of way, but from a practical POV the bigger vehicle has the right of way. A bicyclist may ultimately win in a lawsuit against a car driver, assuming he survives the encounter, but is the pain and suffering worth it.... for bicycling? I'm a life-long downhill skier and motorcyclist and a decade-long NYC bicyclist (w/near messenger lunacy) and despite all being arguably more dangerous than the OP's commute, I love it....because I am in control. When you are about the fastest thing on a slope or road, your risks are all in front of you - if you get into an accident, then you can really only blame yourself for not antipating it. The OP's commute.... yuck - turtle in hippo stampede... give me a motorcyle for the commute and MTB for weekend exercise.

AlmostTrick

Exactly how can anyone "force" anyone else to do something illegal and/or reckless?


Why do you assume there will be a (crash) encounter?


Although they may honk and rant at times, motorists don't just run over cyclists simply because they were in the way.

bikiola

I am amazed at how many tacticool-style victim blamers are in this thread. Instead of sympathizing with people who are surrounded by the American wasteland, anti-human transportation system, you suggest something akin to "manning up" and dealing with it, dealing with violent buffoons (who may or may not have guns, since Americans are trigger-happy) and massive SUVs. Its unbelievable on a bike commuting thread.

reppans

Yeah, I don't know how the cross crountry tourers do it, I gotta believe they spend most of their time riding major through routes with a relatively steady diet of traffic just passing, and passing, and passing. As nice as the scenery can be, the constant vehicular parade and uncontrollable risk from behind just destroys the idea of it for me. Now if they created a cross-country rail trail, I'd love to do that.

Sadly, the US is the land of fast food obeseness, large distances, cheap fuel, and pick-up/SUV "truck" culture. Unlike the rest of the world, efficient two-wheeled transport (motorcycle or bicycle) is but a tiny blip to be tolerated, rather than catered to. I think that's really changing in some urban areas, but rural areas? I just don't see it.

It took a folder to get me excited about touring again. I love spontaneous travel, but hate getting stuck in situations like your Rt. 10. Next thing I'm going to try in that situation is hitchhiking - as you may recall my unique touring niche is ultra-compact/portable and I can easily sit in virtually any front passenger seat with my entire rig right on my lap. And based on the few short tours last year, folks seem seem so intrigued by this bike - never had so many folks asking questions/taking picture before - that I think it might be as good as a super model for catching rides .

RubeRad

Most BF members are Americans, so it is not surprising that even in the bike-commuting subforum there is a subset that loves their cars and guns and are very defensive about them. :

bikiola

Yup, agreed! But why on a bike commuting thread on a biking forum? So weird. Take it literally anywhere else...

reppans

When there is small/no shoulder on a two laner (one lane for each direction of travel) a bicyclist either forces the rear-approaching driver over the double yellow to pass, or the bicyclist experiences a punish-pass/buzz-pass, or the bicyclist simply holds up traffic.

Guess I'm just a pessimistic/worst-case scenario type. To me, sticking-it-out/manning-it-up in such an unfavorable cycling environment will eventually lead to encounter/crash - kinda like the OP's experiences, and which I have felt the same, although I stopped before the crash/garbage-tossing part. I don't think it will ever be an intentional run-over-the-bicyclist thing... I think it will more likely be someone trying to pass while keeping to the right of the double yellow (a close/punish/buzz pass to the cyclist), probably due to on-coming traffic, but just when the cyclist may need to veer around a rock or pothole.

Are you suggesting a cyclist bear that risk and abuse? for what, his health? enjoyment? cyclists' rights?... and with zero chance of retribution? I will say that as an NYC urban cyclist, I have seen my fair share of vehicular intimidation, but in the city we can catch them in traffic and at lights, and give it right back to them. As I mentioned earlier, that retribution, combined with quantity of cyclists, keeps urban drivers more respectful of cyclist. Rural drivers can screw with bicyclists with impunity.... and on certain roads we can be a real PITA.

sexy cyclist

Good news! I have the settlement check in my hands! Gonna go deposit it today and put this all behind me.


I've been hit by cars 4 times in 2.5 years. I think that's good reason to believe crashes will continue to happen if I choose to continue bike commuting.

They do more than honk. They throw things, they swing their car doors at me, I've had drivers swerve at me and intentionally run me off the road, countless drivers brake check me etc. You guys are seriously underestimating just how hostile this area is for bike commuters. For example how many times have you had to slam on your brakes and get on the sidewalk because someone gave you the finger then smashed a bottle in the bike lane just a head of you on purpose? Happened to me at least once a month during the summer, it was ridiculous.

sexy cyclist

There is nothing manly about putting yourself in a situation where you could be killed or permanently injured when you have kids to care for. That's the opposite of manliness IMO. 4 crashes with cars in 2.5 years. Yeah cycling is fun but its not worth it at the expense of my health.

sexy cyclist

Hitch-hiking isn't a terrible idea. Whatever you gotta do to get through a rough spot.

I've had pretty good luck on most tours aside from a few things like route 10. Usually I follow numbered state routes, and try to pick ones that will have less traffic. Ones that avoid major cities and larger towns in favor of rural country side and towns with 100-5000 population. Folks in those areas tend to be more patient and respectful on the road, because they're used to the blind twisting corners, narrow roads, and seeing slow moving farm tractors.

I've really been craving another tour. It's weird...since I stopped cycling in December I haven't so much as hopped in the saddle for a spin around my block. I don't really miss bike commuting. In a way it feels like a weight was lifted off my shoulders...less stress in my life now. But man I really want to go on a tour. Sitting here editing the videos from my last one is really tough, makes me want to get back out there.

bikiola

+100. I love riding and ride defensively when necessary, call our drivers when appropriate, and am never shocked by how low drivers will go when they feel their entitlements are being taken away. The hypocrisy is breathtaking (eg in the city they'll patiently go around a double parked car... but honk and throw things at me if god forbid I am in front of them) They are the white supremacists of public space, no question about it.

CrankyOne

Everyone has different tolerances for risk (and at different times of their life) and different knowledge of how risky some activities are. When I was younger I raced cars and motorcycles, taught SCUBA diving and did some commercial diving, hung from arena ceilings to hang lights for concerts (more scary than actually dangerous I think), and all kinds of things. When I got married I sold my motorcycles (though I borrowed one back once a year for a trip) and cut back on many dangerous activities. When my wife got pregnant I cut back a considerable bit more.

The amount of control we have over how risky something is varies quite a bit. I'd seen enough SCUBA events to know the dangers and practiced it very safely (always with a buddy I trusted, both w/ extra reg, conservative on tables, extra tank dropped down in some cases, etc.). I became more cautious in racing, mostly by sticking to events with competitors that I knew I could likely trust.

Riding a motorcycle on the road in the U.S. (112 deaths / 1b km travelled) is statistically about 50% more dangerous than riding a bicycle (77 deaths / 1b km cycled). (This compared to riding in a car in the U.S. w/ 6 deaths per 1b km.) When you look at the crash data in more detail though it may actually be safer to ride a motorcycle. A much higher percent of motorcycle deaths, about 71% IIRC, have rider error as a primary cause and are thus preventable with safer riding. Bicycle riding is much lower, about 20% to 40% depending on whose statistics though the best is likely from LAB that puts it at 27% cyclists fault. IOW, 73% of bicycle fatalities are not preventable by the cyclist (except by choosing not to ride on the roads) and a full 44% of cyclist deaths are hit from behind or sideswipe.

In the end we have very little control over the risk we face when riding bicycles on the road in the U.S. Our fate is in the hands of people driving cars and perhaps talking on the phone, texting, trying to find something, drinking, eating a hamburger or trying to get something going with the cute person sitting next to them.

reppans

Thanks for sharing those statistics - as a life-long rider of both, they are consistent with what I would have expected, and what I tried to relay in my posts above.

roninguy

I quit bike commuting a few years back it just stop being enjoyable. This after observing way too many close calls with careless drivers. I just ride for fun now. Also the winter riding became too hard on me, luckily I live in an area that has great mass transit so it is not a big deal. I must say now days as I walk around where I work it amazes me how more cyclist aren't run over considering every other car I see while Im walking around work seems to be driving lime a maniac.

AlmostTrick

Agreed, and thank you. Motorists everywhere really do try to not hit us.

If a cyclist ever 'veers' into the path of a motorist, then with all due respect I'd say they made a mistake.

I suggest cyclists take steps to mitigate their risks... for all the reasons you list. Not riding some roads (or any) is one valid way, but certainly not the only. Our cycling technique and behavior affects how others treat us. Why is it some cyclists seem to be able to ride almost anywhere and others seem to have lots of problems with other road users? Some can likely be attributed to location I'm sure, but not all.

I took the LAB road course many years ago and found it very helpful. I also find attitude to be important. Riding like you belong beats trying to stay out of the way, in my experience.

reppans

I said "veer around a rock or pothole," if that equates to veering "into the path of a motorist" to you, then I'll can only assume that you are probably comfortable with ~50+mph passing with only 1-2 feet of clearance, the driver staying right of the double yellow (to your earlier question), on small-/no-shouldered roads.

Guess I'm having trouble understanding how a turtle in a hippo stampede can convene much of anything in terms of attitude. On my motorcycle (~leopard in a hippo stampede), oh yeah I can absolutely do all sorts of attitudes, but riding my bicycle on these major through routes, I'm just hunkered down in an aero position (to minimize time riding bicycling hell), staying to the far right, and crossing my fingers that I don't get sideswiped. How exactly does one relay confidence and "ride like they belong" here? Is it an upright, chin-up/chest-out riding position or something?

mcours2006

You are being facetious, of course, but seriously, though, 'riding like I belong' means that I am assertive and decisive in my actions as well as make my intentions known, or at the very least, obvious, to motorists. It means taking the lane when it becomes necessary to do so. Obviously we are all taking a leap of faith in that we trust that perfect strangers, some of whom may be very poor drivers or are distracted, moving past us at a much faster pace aren't going to plow into us.

reppans

I agree with you in an urban/suburban environment where corners, hills, traffic, and numerous side roads, driveways, stop lights/signs creates a dynamic riding environment where this is appropriate. This is also where the posted speed limit tends to be around 25-35mph, where our speed differential to passing vehicles is less of a burden, when they have to wait for a safe passing area - ie, cross the double yellow to give us adequate clearence.

Major through routes (typically posted 45+mph) are a different matter and what I'm talking about.

You no longer have the same dynamics mentioned above - it's just a dead straight ride along the fog line, and in the OPs case, for a long, long time. No taking a lane, or need to signal the intention to ride straight (so actually no, I wasn't being facetious, how do you relay confidence/belonging riding along a straight fog line?). Except now, if there's any opposing traffic, every vehicle behind must slow from 55mph to 15-20mph, until the opposing lane has cleared, so they can cross the double yellow to give safe passing room..... or not, and the cyclist just gets a punish-pass. I've felt that many times on these type of roads, mostly unintentially where the driver simply wants to maintain speed, and not cross the double yellow (due to opposing traffic), but certainly enough that were intentional (close passes with no opposing traffic).

I can easily imagine real malice building up over time when dealing with the same pool of daily commuters. For those drive-commuting on these through routes, you can probably get a pretty good sense of how this wrath builds up - try driving your daily commute just 5mph under the posted speed limit for a few months.

mcours2006

If I have to commute on roads where the posted speed limit is over 70 km/h, likely drivers are cruising at 80+ at this point, I would not do it. I would find an alternate route, even if it added extra miles to the commute.

But yes, I am lucky enough to have my route that is no more than 60 km/h, and most times it's less than 50 km/h through residential streets and secondary arteries with dedicated bike lanes.

I realize that OP does not have a choice, and that's unfortunate. I imagine if I had were in his place I might be contemplating the same thing.

AlmostTrick

If you ride far enough left, you always have room to veer right to avoid hazards, instead of veering into traffic. Usually, this only means keeping at least a foot or two of pavement to your right. If you look far ahead, you could always brake if necessary too. If you use a mirror, you always know what's going on behind you and whether or not you can move left. In my estimation, a good mirror is necessary... especially in situations with lots of faster overtaking traffic.

As mc replied in a previous post, being assertive and communicating with motorists is key. Lane position, hand signals, look backs, etc.

But once the speed differential escalates, a lot of this goes out the window, in my experience. There's just not enough time for fancy communicating. The ONLY thing that communicates anything to motorists in these high speed situations is a solid position well into the lane. This alerts them from a much greater distance, leaving no doubt that they MUST change lanes or slow down. (or run you over, which NONE of them want to do)

Like most cyclists, I'll avoid these roads when I can. But if I do ride them, staying far right has not worked well for me.

In this situation fully taking the lane is how you convey confidence and show that you belong. It also gives drivers more time to react, which means LESS chance of buzz passes or anger.

A good mirror will give you a lot of information, and peace of mind as you watch motorist reaction. Obviously Hi-Vis and reflective gear, along with bright tail lights helps a bunch too.

reppans

I think we are all on the same page where we have lower speed differentials. I keep reiterating this, but I am only referring to major through roads posted 45+ mph where traffic is typically ~55+mph, and usually for me, these are two laners (one lane in each direction), with a decent amount of traffic going both directions, and have no shoulders.

That said, your suggestion to fully take a lane on this type of road is something I have never even considered. This guarantees that the line of cars behind me will just have to wait their turn at 15-20 mph until the opposing lane is clear to pass through - but maybe that's what I want to avoid close passes? I'm curious if others do this on major routes that typically moves ~55+mph, and how it works out for them?

When I drive a car, I make it a point to observe other motorcyclists and bicyclists from a driver's perspective, and I have to say this might piss me off, but not quite sure as I've never seen it before. The first time I would give a wide berth thinking I was passing a crazy person, but repeated encounters on my commuting time slot might yeild a different outcome.

I really don't know... but you certainly have a set of large ones.

Leebo

Far right is sometimes not the best or safest position. Taking the lane, using the right tire track, riding in a strait line, using the mirrors/head check and signaling when needed. Works for me and ride like bikes are traffic and vehicles too. This however is more on secondary roads with a 20-40 mph limit.

reppans

Once again...
Do you take the lane on 2 lane roads (one lane each direction) with no shoulder posted 45, where everyone wants to drive 55? And if so, would you do this on a daily basis for long distance commuting like the OP?

You're North of Boston, I'm North of NYC.... probably pretty similar environments. I couldn't imagine surviving very long doing that around here, but I'll admit that I've never tried it. I'm still looking for those that have seasoned experience with this practice on high speed/no shoulder roads.... I'd love to see a 10min/3 mile video of this with traffic in both directions.

mcours2006

Perhaps that's why there aren't any who are still around.

Quite honestly doing what you describe is just insane. Can you imagine it? Pedaling at 20 mph in the middle of a 45-mph freeway while there's a huge line of cars behind you waiting for a gap in the oncoming traffic, which might be just as busy, to pass you one at a time. Can you imagine being one of the motorists waiting to pass this crazy cyclist riding down the middle of the road. No, I don't imagine anyone would last very long doing this.

reppans

Me??

Well my initial thoughts were the same as yours, but AlmostTrick seems to have had better luck with this method and was the one to recommended it above (post 170 in case you missed it). He also links a thread of this method in practice - HERE.

Maybe there is something to it as there certainly seems to be enough advocates of aggressive lane-taking on high speed roads in both of these threads .