Psimet2001 

I didn't see the SRAM thread. I don't head out here that often anymore. I wish I could say it was because I was so busy but really I think the dynamic of my social interactions has changed to the point that the podcast, blogging, facebook, instagram, etc have taken over the time that I used to spend here.

The bad side is all I get now is confirmation bias and not the direct opposition I used to see here. I learn from opposition. I need to find a way to still fill that need.

Psimet2001 

This is true in some industries but not as much in the cycling industry anymore. The agreements are very specific with regard to the use of tooling and molds. The molds are owned stateside and the "knockoffs" are pursued and examined with a fine tooth comb. It used to be this way then the OEM's cracked down. Then it was old tooling that was out of spec that would be scavenged and used with different layups, etc - this too got shut down. Now....these are actual knockoffs baring little to no actual resemblance to the actual article they are knocking off other than the outside look in most cases.

They are like their fashion equivalents. Even back in the 80's when I lived in Taiwan and shopped in markets there and Korea - the knock offs are knock offs. Bearing little to no resemblance to the actual product being produced even though the product is being produced right there.

That is beside the idea of having quality product made in China - in this case. Many factories can and do produce quality product. The burden of due diligence falls unto the buyer in exchange for lower pricing. For those that say they don't mind paying for quality service - the quality service you are buying in this case many times is the due diligence being done buy the re-seller as well as the native English speaking warranty person who is available in your timezone and can be sued by US courts.

99Klein 

I've been tempted on a few sets of Reynolds..... may be what I end up with at some point. I don't consider them top of the line though, as you mentioned, it's relative. The research I've done, these manufactures don't make my "top of the line" list.

WhyFi

I have some Assaults on the way. I wouldn't consider them top o' the top, but they're close enough to the pointy end for me.

What's your list? Enve and Zipp? Lightweight and AX?

Psimet2001 

You lost me right here. If you don't want to throw your money away - better quality frames can be had for enough of a savings that your could have bought nicer wheels and still saved money overall. It's like spending a ton on a nice car and buying the cheapest tires you can. IMHO.

Top of the line sets are NOT $1k. Guys like me still sell for $1k+ and it's barely enough. Top of the line will be laying up their own carbon and most usually in house. Those guys start at $2500+ and go up to $4k+. That pricing has never come down and only headed up over time.

Last time I had a good conversation with someone at one of those guys they admitted they are hurting. The economy isn't minting triathletes that turn and burn gear every season based on marketing literature. To drop pricing on their flagship product though has the effect of telling the marketplace that they are now somehow not as good of a product as a competitor's that is more expensive. It has nothing to do with the product itself. It's how markets function.

They either produce a new unit that is "light years ahead" of the competition and throw a price out there that is more than before - allowing them to keep at the same price point with the rest of the product, or they introduce more budget minded lines - like the old flashpoints with Zipp - product being made overseas instead of in Speedway.

To find trickle down technology at actually lower pricing - that it the domain of guys like me.

Use the car analogy again - cars aren't getting less expensive and it's not like you can find new cars made with old technology for less......

Bike frames haven't gotten cheaper.....

99Klein 

I would consider Enve and Zipp top of the line, Roval may make it there in a couple years. Hard to knock Zipp or Enve.

Assaults are GOOD STUFF for sure and will probably end up my next set of wheels. Like I said, I'm CHEAP. Drives my wife crazy, she's the one who bought me the S-Works frame :-)

99Klein 

Nope, like putting great Michelin tires on decent wheels. Tires are where the rubber meets the road and no place to skimp. I have NO DOUBT these wheels will serve me well over 1/10 the life of Zipps would (the price I paid was 1/10) I hope to get 10,000 miles of of these hoops. We'll see.

fietsbob

To know from not trying it yourself, Send a sample to someone else and ask them again in a few years..

Midwest Ullrich

On a related note......

I came across this unusual carbon wheel melt down video which I think many of us might overlook. I trust the guy because he has been putting a lot of informative cycling videos on Youtube.

noodle soup

https://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycli...ying-sram.html

Psimet2001 

I made it about 2-3 pages in and I'm about to have a heart attack. I can't imagine making it 9 pages.

SRAM has done enough to burn bridges with me in the past but currently I know and love a lot of the people that work there so I just hold the company line.

They are broke right now. eTap and the market drop has destroyed their cash stockpile.

They are doing what they can to mitigate margin loss. They spent a lot of money on lawyers to do it and get it done. While I won't advocate doing it myself....it would be fun to see someone just end run all of this new setup.

noodle soup

When/if FSA ever gets their electric groupset into full production, it will be interesting to see how it effects the sales of eTap.

Psimet2001 

Guessing it won't. eTap is good stuff. It just cost them too much time to develop and then find a way to manufacture for low enough. The pricing now is the best they can come up with and it's even near cost from what I was told a few years back.

After finally getting my hands on the rotor hydraulic.....I am not as excited for off branded groups.

Doge

Some would say carbon wheels are off brand.

But you said groups. It depends.

I think the Extralite stuff is amazing. I think KCNC brakes are half the weight of Shimano for a reason. And if you really think stopping is important, you go brand.

nycphotography

That was my thread, and just to clarify:

I am not protesting the absolute price of eTap thinking I should get something for nothing. Although that's how some people characterized my position, they are wrong.

However I am protesting the price disparity of SRAM across markets.

If eTap was, say, between $1600 and $1700 from all sellers, then I would pay that and be happy.

My bike is already stupid expensive, and stupid expensive group parts is really just part of the price of building a new one. But when cross-market they artificially create a $350-400 (25%-30%) price difference, then my "don't get ***** by the smiling salesman" alarms go off and I automatically set out to spend a little time to defeat that scheme.

cthenn

Nothing to add, but this has been a great thread to read amongst the "which wheelset/bike" threads.

Steve B.

Having twice had to deal with Treks nice, but ultimately useless English speaking warranty rep's, I'd rather not pay for their product and just buy 2 Chinese frames for tons less.

ypsetihw

Interesting, yeah I guess it does. I was talking about going on ebay specifically, and buying from US only sellers whose prices are at or below distributor prices, which is what I do on my own for private clients, giving me a modest markup, and calling it a day.

But I guess you're saying that most shops have agreements that prevent them from doing so, or local tax and other regulations that unnecessarily complicate or bind the transactions.

When you say that SRAM has shopped you directly because of comments, you mean they sent secret shoppers to check up on the 'legitimacy' of your operation? Seedy . . . but unsurprising.

Danny01

You can pick up the eTap mini group and new matching Red crank for around $1400 USD from UK sites. Use Force/Ultegra for brakes, chain and a Team BB should put the total right under $1600.

noodle soup

UK sites no longer sell to U.S. buyers.

Psimet2001 

It's because the laws in different areas are different. They are dealing with different cost basis and distribution channel as well as different laws governing what they can sell/advertise their pricing for.

In the US we have very strict MAP policies. You can't advertise a price the deviates from the OEM's policy. If you do you will lose access to the product. Period. Technically they can't tell you what you can or can not sell for at a legal level on individual sales made to people. So it's this big stupid game.

You call me and ask a price and I have to tow the company line and give you msrp. If you stop in and talk to me and we chit chat, etc and I get to know you and feel like giving you a break on a price well that's my business and SRAM has no business knowing or getting involved. ........but.....

The way they get around that is they illegally shop you. If they hear through the grapevine (btw "tattling" is also against the law and they technically have to ignore it) that you're a discount shop then they basically go in and request a quote, and/or buy from you. If you sell for less than what you are supposed to then you lose access to sell the product. They'll give you a BS reason for why you lost it but....you lost it.

It's all shady as F. It's a big joke.

....but this is part of why things are the way they are.

In the EU/UK SRAM is not able to police pricing the way they do in the US. As a result they spent a TON of money on lawyers and litigation to ensure that if they couldn't control the price then they would make it illegal for any importation/sales of that market's products to the US.

So...if you don't like it and you feel like you're "being taken advantage of" then take it up with SRAM. I can give you Taco Ed's number personally. I am sure he'd love to talk to you.

At the end of the day no one is getting rich - you're not being taken advantage of. eTap is not a gold mine for SRAM. That company has been on a spending and hiring freeze for years now. Shops aren't saving their quarters by selling you an eTap group. It's roughly pass through.

If it's really infuriating that the "same" product is available somewhere else in the world for less well...don't know what to tell you. I can buy lots of things in other places for less. I guess if it's that important then you could always just go there and buy it and bring it back....declare it when you re-enter and pay the customs tariffs on it.

Psimet2001 

Fair enough but you can sue Trek.

Psimet2001 

There aren't US sellers with prices below distributors. The problem is that their pricing is usually at or about 5% above wholesale. Anyone with any kind of overhead - even as little as electricity - goes broke on 5% unless they're doing more volume than Walmart.

As for tax unnecessarily complicating.... take it up with the government. Its the legal thing to do so small garage schemes based on not doing the legal thing will never succeed.

As for the shopping....yes and no. All companies will check on your legitimacy of operation before they do anything with you. You have to be a real business with a real license, insurance - to cover them, and with most you have to have a brick and mortar operation.

For SRAM shopping me? no. Not about the location. Quite simply a team I was sponsoring was receiving a small deal on Quarq units. One of those team members walked into another shop in town and said, "I can get x from PSIMET for price $xxxx. Can you match it or beat it?". At the time Quarq had been bought by SRAM but was still operating on it's own a bit and I had always had a direct account with Quarq.

Out of the blue I received a MAP policy from SRAM for the first time ever. Odd because I had been selling SRAM for years with no communication from them EVER to me directly. If that's not a red flag....

A week or so later I got a direct request off of my site for a quote on a Quarq powermeter from someone I had never done business with before. That doesn't just happen. Pretty easy exercise in looking up the MAP/MSRP and putting it in the email with the following: "The MSRP is $xxxx so that is what I could sell it to you for. If you spend 5 seconds on google though you will find it for much cheaper." That was the end of it.

About 6 months after that I was told point blank by a sales rep that Taco Ed came right up to him and told him that the local shop had called him tattling on what was a confidential team deal so he pursued me with the intention of shopping me and then putting me on a do not sell list. A completely shady way of doing business. I am sure some of their actions are probably illegal but what's a tiny retailer supposed to do? especially when the next day I'll have someone walking in and asking for a rival derail, etc.

So....SRAM...local company with a lot of people I love and some great product. F their sales guys, f taco Ed. Forever. A lot of the people working the tech line in Indy are also complete a holes with chips on their shoulders.

Bottom line is if Shimano actually gave a crap about American shops they could once again take over and squash SRAM.

Steve B.

Well of course. Glad you told me that.

Psimet2001 

....as opposed to a Chinese company that you can not sue. That was my point.