kevrider

if i may, i'd like to pose another newbie question... everything i read about tandeming speaks of the patience required of captain and stoker in oder to be a successful team. i have been accused of impatience and i will admit that slow learning is frustrating, be it in myself or in others. but it seems to me that the tandem would actually eliminate some of the frustrations found with riding singles. she is willing but not as excited about it as i am, she seems to think i lack the patience as above.

background info...
we are in a long-distance relationship and she lives in a world without hills. she was not a rider when we met, but was interested, so i bought her a roadie machine, which she does ride fairly regularly. she is a borderline beginner/intermediate rider and still learning how to shift, among other things. but due to her local geography, whenever she is confronted with my local hills, she is not very good at knowing when to shift or which shifter to use or how may gears to shift, etc. we have been working on this but it's a slow process, since there is also an elevation difference. she lives at appx sea level, i'm at ~4500 ft, so her rides are short and difficult when she comes to my town. this limits her 'training' time, and those hill training rides are infrequent, as well. if we are on a tandem, this problem just goes away.

speaking of fitness, there is another issue. this year, if the current trend continues, i will finish with year with nearly 3x the mileage that she has ridden. she is competitive and threatens that she will spank me climbing a hill one day, but we will never be on level terms with that sort of mileage disparity. i hound/encourage her to ride more all of the time, but she does have other priorities. so, when we ride "together" on singles, it can go one of two ways: 1) i lead, ride away and wait up the road, or 2) i follow, she feels pressure to go faster and bonks. with the latter case, i always ask her to ride her own pace and i'll match it, but she never does. hence the former, which i don't mind, nor does she, but sometimes i'd like to actually ride *with* her, not just at the same time. besides, i cannot give her tips if i can't see what she is doing. anyway, a tandem allows us to ride together despite a fitness disparity.

the complications that i can see which would require some learning/adjustments... calling out bumps, etc... calling out stand up climbs/sprints... calling out stops... coordinating starts... her telling me when to stop for rest/comfort/nature breaks/food/whatever else... telling me if we're blitzing the descents too fast...

these don't seem like difficult adjustments. am i deceiving myself? i don't see how this can go wrong!

as for tandem kayaking... we were on the honeymoon in july and rented a low end boat. she had never before been in a tandem kayak, i had done it once before, but in a sea kayak. that one had a rudder and maybe a keel, not sure, but it tracked well. this boat was rudderless with a wide hull with a flat bottom and it was difficult to maintain course. i disliked this boat. i did ask her to stop paddling a couple of times while i tried to make some maneuvers, but mostly we worked together to get down and up the river and did it without threats of harm to one another. it was not poetry in motion, but we did it and there was even smiling and laughing.

i had this posted in the riceowls thread, but i don't want to threadjack...

Ramona_W

You say that you find "slow learning" frustrating. What's her patience level when it comes to this whether it's her or someone else?

zonatandem

Slow learner or not, it takes lots of communication/co-operation/distance to become a good tandem team.
Over 42 years of tandeming TWOgether and over a quarter million miles riding as a duo I guess we may have some experience.
Keep at it. Oh, and with your attitude/outlook, don't be surprised if she'll beat you going up a big hill one of these days!
My stoker Kay (under 100 lbs!) has put many a big dude to shame (including some big-mouth male tandem teams) in either hill or distance events and she has the trophies to prove it!
At age 82 she still rides tandem with me although our go-fast/hard days are now behind us.
So give you stoker some leeway and credit!

kevrider

believe me, i'm dying for the day she makes a race of it. she will eventually leave the flatlands and move to my town, and that will help. but she is frankly, a more well-rounded person than i am, so i'm not sure she will ever log the miles that i do. i am also not sure how much 'suffering' she will bear to get faster. otoh, she is more competitive than i am, so we shall see.

kevrider

interesting question. i think mine wears before hers, but i'll ask her what she thinks of this.

alias5000

What does she think of the tandem thought? Is this something she's open, interested or enthusiastic about?
If you can, rent a tandem and try it out. Don't set yourself big goals for that day, just go for a nice extended 'smell the flowers'-style ride and enjoy the day together. That should answer your questions or send you on the trajectory of further exploration.

Competition can work very well, if you are a team. As soon as you are two individuals on the same bike where one doesn't like the style of riding of the other person, things can get more complicated.

Edit: I'm in year 3 of tandeming. I do not find it hard, but I would credit 98% of that to my GF who is an amazing tandem partner. I have tandem'd with other people as stokers (or captain) before and every person was different to ride with. For some, the issues you reported would be a bit more in-your-face, for some less - but we always managed well and the initial learning curve is quite fast. Leave perfectionism at home, enjoy the ride and things will be fine. Perfection comes over time (we still haven't fully mastered the standing thing), but I do not think that that is a big hindrance to enjoying the tandem experience.

jethro00

Some people love riding a tandem and some don't. She people just can't get comfortable riding on the back. Some couples do great on tandems and some just can't work together well enough to enjoy it. The differential in your riding abilities might make a daVinci tandem with ICS a good fit. But, that is a bit of an investment if you are unsure of whether a tandem will work well for you. We have ridden tandems for decades and ride every day. We love it. But, we are not competitive with each other.

kevrider

i would say that she is open and curious, but definitely less than enthusiastic. she questions my ability to be patient as we learn how to ride together. i think riding together on our singles is more of a test for me than would be riding together on a tandem.

i doubt being competitive vs each other would be an issue on a tandem. i suspect it'll be more like the kayak, Us vs The World. we enjoyed catching and passing people or holding them off. we are the same way on solo bike rides. i imagine this is child's play on a tandem, except for those climbs.


i think she would be a great stoker and i'm confident i'll figure out how to captain. also, she trusts me well enough to enjoy riding on the motorcycle. i can't see how the tandem would be any different, as long as i work on my communications and avoid doing anything stupid.

you know that axiom about tandems and marriage and getting there quicker... for better or for worse, why not accelerate?! we are newlyweds, but we might as well find out where we're going now, eh?

B. Carfree

I probably have a bias here, since our first tandem came our way while we were living in pancake-flat Davis, CA thirty years ago, but do you ever go to her place to ride? If she can hold a wheel, you can ride as hard as you like and she should be able to stay with you. Of course you'll have to be a good wheel and not do anything that crashes her.

The flats are also a good place to learn to ride a tandem as a team, imo. There's less shifting, and far less shifting under load, so things don't go wrong as often. Also bikes, including tandems, are more stable at higher speeds. On the flats, you are never crawling along fighting for stability.

About whether it is hard to become a tandem team: Nope, not at all as long as you can communicate and not blame your team mate for things going wrong. In our case, that communication led us to buck the trend and have my wife ride captain while I ride stoker and control shifting and the drag brake. That does mean that she gets to the top of every hill slightly ahead of me, but that's okay by me.

marciero

All that about learning curve-you'll figure it out. You can take tips from here-there are lots of threads addressing specific things like climbing out of the saddle, but you have to just get out and try it. One thing you might look up first though is starting and stopping, which you can do various ways.

jethro00

One thing you can do to improve the experience for your stoker is to give her some responsibilities. For example, if you do not use a mirror, she can be the one to look back and announce whether it is clear for turns, stopping, etc. She can give all hand signals. Be conservative for a long time with speed and moves to help her gain confidence that she is reasonably safe back there. Plus one on not blaming each other when things go less than optimal. Give her positive reinforcement on what goes well and hold off commenting on what doesn't that isn't likely to be fatal until you have some duration on the tandem. If you find you can work together on a tandem, IT'S A BLAST! If you can't, it's not the end of the world. There is an active market for used tandems and you can go back to riding half bikes.

Carbonfiberboy 

Really, LOL! Everything you say is so familiar and . . . comfortable. You'll have a blast. Go for it. You're in a perfect starter team position. You'll probably have some questions after your first couple rides together, but we can't anticipate what those might be. Remember: it's a relationship accelerator. Life is short.

Fit-wise, captain's fit is straight-forward. Same as single bike. Stoker is more complicated because the distance between bottom brackets does not vary on stock tandems. Still, there are the usual saddle and stem adjustments, and stoker position is a little less fraught since stoker doesn't need the same ability to get aero.

waynesulak

My approach would be to make sure and be ultra patient starting out. The best way to change her opinion is to consistently be patient knowing that each slip is what she most likely will remember. It can be hard but I don't see any other way.

My guess is that the best teams are those with like workout goals. Riding a bike is hard but fun work. To paraphrase a former president, we choose to ride not because it is easy, but because it is hard, because riding will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, and because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept.

I think that for the best results both team members must accept it and make it her own, not doing it for the other. Selflessness is admirable but tends to evaporate as the heart rate rises.

chris ss

I think the core of it is that each person - - - that is, both people - - - on the bike need(s) to subordinate their own self to the combined unit. Said another way, you both / each gotta want to ride a tandem more than you 'want' to do things individually on a bike. Cuz you're not on your own bike, you're now physically sharing a single unit. So balance, shifting, cadence, coasting, braking, moves in / among traffic, when you leave, when you stop, when you get come home, etc - everything is now both of you cranking on a single piece of metal. The only exception is power into the cranks while the pedals are spinning - each of you can PUSH as hard as you want (tho at the same cadence).

Simply, for it to work, you each gotta be alert + accommodating to the other person's concerns for the whole ride, and make your decisions (especially as capt cuz you're making more decisions than the stoker) for the good of the UNIT, rather than for the good of the individual.

In my mind, it's less an issue of patience per se; and more an issue of selfishness / selflessness - meaning your desire, ability, and comfort level with subordinating your self to the now-combined single unit. Each of you, both of you, have a veto, cuz when 1 of you bows out, you're both back on single bikes.

Might be for you, might not. All the best with it either way.

kevrider

so many wise words here, many thanks for the replies. i have sent to wifey a link for this thread, we will discuss and proceed from there. if she gives the go-ahead, and we can secure the bike we have in mind, we may soon join the club.

cavediver

We're fairly new to the tandem world. I blamed my wife for my bloody legs from her moving the pedals. yesterday I read a post that stated that the stroker is never at fault. Having read it I realized that it's true. You have to talk things over before hand.

Brian25

A different perspective; A few things that may (or may not) help with your patience/ impatience.

Women are about 20% weaker than men, if you want someone with equip strength you may have to look elsewhere for a stoker.

You are breaking recycling's 1st rule; Expecting yourself/ her to get stronger on the bike. The R.P.M.s while cycling are high, its an aerobic sport. Much better leg strengthening can be found through doing the leg press at a gym. Have her/ you try it three times a week for 3 months (only move the weight up 5% per week.) You will be amazed how you can turn gears with greater ease.

This will relegate the fact that she lives where it's flat.

There is this thing called "pedal counting" with both feet on the pedals. Use drive force with one foot, while the other is resting. You always have a fresh foot coming on in 10 pedals. This works really well on a tandem.

jethro00

We now ride with metal pedals with studs for grip. They look sharp (red like the bike) and really help with grip. But, starting out, pedals with a rubber surface are safer. If our metal pedals hit you, the studs will inflict some damage.

Darth Lefty 

Launching. Stroke. When to start pedaling again. Whether the stoker touches down. If the stoker pedals without you it tosses you like a fixie or a spin bike. My wife likes to spin up to where she meets resistance, I like to shift up until the resistance matches my meter, so she sometimes bucks me. I had a blind stoker a few weeks back who would basically stop at the top of each stroke.

cavediver

Ours is 91 Cannondale which had toe clips and straps, I removed them. Still have the metal pedals yes they will inflect damage, still my fault. We now verbalize everything.

kevrider

as I've mentioned, wifey is relatively new to the game. happily has good experiences when meeting other roadies and mtn bikers on rides and in shops and even online. case in point, after reviewing this and another thread, she texted me "... the biking community is so supportive, you can ask anything and people will provide thoughtful insight and very helpful tips, and all this without judgment. That's just great...."

so thanks again for the reception!

after reading the comments, she concluded that we'll make a good team, but she'd like a long test ride before diving in.

WIN!!!

so we will figure out how to proceed, but it looks like we are moving forward. i'll provide an update when we have one.

cheers!

dougdunn

Seems to me that a tandem would be perfect for you two. You are both physically fit if she rides as much as you say, and the tandem will level out your biking skills. From my experience in much the same situation (except for the long-distance part) the learning curve is not steep, just common sense and courtesy. Biggest deal is learning to mount and stop. Don't try the out of the saddle until you have lots of miles in - that means you will have to walk up a few hills. and moderate your speed downhill until she is comfortable with your piloting - again, common sense should prevail. Rent a cross-bike and try it!

djedgar

Speaking as a stoker, make sure she has clip-in pedals and riding shoes. No problem for Stoker to keep feet on the pedals that way, and it is easier to match the pedal position for the Captain's preference on the start. You two sound perfect for tandem riding. Enjoy social rides where the two of you can enjoy each other's company when you are together. If you ride off and leave her, you might as well be on individual rides in the distant locations.
If you are riding singles and serious about helping her learn to shift, ride with her so she can follow your shift patterns. With a tandem this is a moot issue.
Biggest issue for most stokers is the ability to trust the Captain. I couldn't give up "control" until suffering an injury. Tandem bikes allowed us to continue riding & it's been 20 years on tandems for us.

OneIsAllYouNeed

Be patient with each other while you're getting started... and as you gain more experience.

Getting started is the hardest part of tandem riding. There are plenty of good tips here on how to do that.

Sort out all the basic fit issues on a trainer before your first ride. The stoker's saddle is the most important part of the bike.

Start riding with a (sunglass or helmet) mirror so you're comfortable with it before captaining the tandem. On the tandem it's harder to look over your shoulder for traffic. My stoker especially likes that we can confidently and safely take the full lane for smoothest pavement, then get over for cars to pass as needed.
A mirror would be handy for your single-bike rides together, too. You can tell from her facial expression whether she's working too hard or not hard enough.

alias5000

...and you can tell from any side-ways shift of balance when your driving style in traffic is too aggressive for your stoker to still trust you without being able to look ahead