Italian or French mystery from the 50s? Pics inside
12-16-17, 07:26 AM
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Italian or French mystery from the 50s? Pics inside
So I bought this bike today and I was wondering if anyone can identify the head badge. The guy I bough it from swears it was Italian but I`m not so sure...
Some specs: Nervvex BB shell, 25.6 seat pin, looks like nervex legere lugs (the main reason I bought it) and a complete mismatch of newer parts. Only one shifter boss on the down tube, no bottle cage holes and a beautiful home applied paint job..
Thank you
Some specs: Nervvex BB shell, 25.6 seat pin, looks like nervex legere lugs (the main reason I bought it) and a complete mismatch of newer parts. Only one shifter boss on the down tube, no bottle cage holes and a beautiful home applied paint job..
Thank you
12-16-17, 07:56 AM
#2
feros ferio
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Two ways to tell if it's Italian or (more likely) French:
1. Seat tube OD -- 28.0mm (French, also Swiss, I believe); 28.6mm (everyone else).
The relatively narrow seatpost suggests a plain gauge class carbon steel frame, comparable in quality to something like the Peugeot A/UO-8, which of course used its own distinctive lugs.
2. Bottom bracket -- 35x1mm (French or Swiss); 36mm x 24TPI (uniquely Italian)
The dropouts look very familiar, and I am sure someone here can give you a definitive ID of both.
Someone may be able to identify it from the wrap-around seat stays.
1. Seat tube OD -- 28.0mm (French, also Swiss, I believe); 28.6mm (everyone else).
The relatively narrow seatpost suggests a plain gauge class carbon steel frame, comparable in quality to something like the Peugeot A/UO-8, which of course used its own distinctive lugs.
2. Bottom bracket -- 35x1mm (French or Swiss); 36mm x 24TPI (uniquely Italian)
The dropouts look very familiar, and I am sure someone here can give you a definitive ID of both.
Someone may be able to identify it from the wrap-around seat stays.
__________________
"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
Last edited by John E; 12-16-17 at 08:02 AM.
12-16-17, 08:00 AM
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-----
Definitely not Italian.
Certainly looks French.
Appears original blue finish with white lining is there beneath the red.
Careful paint removal may expose some remaining transfers.
Original fittings appear to be headset, front mech, seat binder, bottom bracket cups & possibly saddle pillar.
Headset appears it may be RFG; perhaps an early version of model nr. 15.
Looks to date from later 1950's or very early 1960's. The cycle's Juy Competition front mech exhibits the metal knob which ends in 1959. It we take it to be original, as appears, this is a helpful dating aid.
Frame bits:
constructed with NERVEX Professional lugset & bottom bracket shell nr. 49/152 with lug lips removed.
dropout set is NERVEX nr. 1012.
pump peg may be NERVEX nr. 845.
bottom bracket roller cable guide NERVEX nr. 775
-----
Definitely not Italian.
Certainly looks French.
Appears original blue finish with white lining is there beneath the red.
Careful paint removal may expose some remaining transfers.
Original fittings appear to be headset, front mech, seat binder, bottom bracket cups & possibly saddle pillar.
Headset appears it may be RFG; perhaps an early version of model nr. 15.
Looks to date from later 1950's or very early 1960's. The cycle's Juy Competition front mech exhibits the metal knob which ends in 1959. It we take it to be original, as appears, this is a helpful dating aid.
Frame bits:
constructed with NERVEX Professional lugset & bottom bracket shell nr. 49/152 with lug lips removed.
dropout set is NERVEX nr. 1012.
pump peg may be NERVEX nr. 845.
bottom bracket roller cable guide NERVEX nr. 775
-----
Last edited by juvela; 12-16-17 at 01:33 PM. Reason: addition
12-16-17, 09:15 AM
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-----
Definitely not Italian.
Certainly looks French.
Appears original blue finish with white lining is there beneath the red.
Careful paint removal may expose some remaining transfers.
Original fittings appear to be headset, front mech, seat binder, bottom bracket cups & possibly saddle pillar.
Looks to date from later 1950's or very early 1960's. The cycle's Juy Competition front mech exhibits the metal knob which ends in 1959. It we take it to be original, as appears, this is a helpful dating aid.
Frame bits:
constructed with NERVEX Professional lugset & bottom bracket shell nr. 49/152 with lug lips removed.
dropout set is NERVEX nr. 1012.
pump peg may be NERVEX nr. 845.
bottom bracket roller cable guide NERVEX nr. 775
-----
Definitely not Italian.
Certainly looks French.
Appears original blue finish with white lining is there beneath the red.
Careful paint removal may expose some remaining transfers.
Original fittings appear to be headset, front mech, seat binder, bottom bracket cups & possibly saddle pillar.
Looks to date from later 1950's or very early 1960's. The cycle's Juy Competition front mech exhibits the metal knob which ends in 1959. It we take it to be original, as appears, this is a helpful dating aid.
Frame bits:
constructed with NERVEX Professional lugset & bottom bracket shell nr. 49/152 with lug lips removed.
dropout set is NERVEX nr. 1012.
pump peg may be NERVEX nr. 845.
bottom bracket roller cable guide NERVEX nr. 775
-----
do you have any tips on how to remove the (thick) paint? Shall measure the bb to see if there is any marking. Apparently there was a giro dětalila decal on the frame , at least that`s what the sellelr claims...
12-16-17, 09:26 AM
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-----
Go gentle with the paint removal. Do not begin with "paint remover." I would begin with "non-acetone nail polish remover" available at drug stores and beauty supply stores. It is the least harsh product to try first. If necessary, you could move to acetone next. I would explore the areas likely to exhibit transfers first.
Possible that Giro d'Italia was a model name.
Frame will be quality tubing; at minimum some manner of Durifort/Vitus. You can check pillar size. Best possibility would be 26.6mm; would expect at least 26.2mm. Posted 25.6mm pillar size sounds odd. You might wish to check to see of seat binder ears have been pinched down onto a too small saddle pillar...
The black oxide bottom bracket cups appear to be REWAX/Bardon. They will be metric thread 35 X 1.0 (both right hand thread). Shell will be 68mm width.
One possible manufacturer I thought of is Saint Etienne. Attempted without success to locate a period correct head emblem for this maker. So it is just an idea.
-----
Go gentle with the paint removal. Do not begin with "paint remover." I would begin with "non-acetone nail polish remover" available at drug stores and beauty supply stores. It is the least harsh product to try first. If necessary, you could move to acetone next. I would explore the areas likely to exhibit transfers first.
Possible that Giro d'Italia was a model name.
Frame will be quality tubing; at minimum some manner of Durifort/Vitus. You can check pillar size. Best possibility would be 26.6mm; would expect at least 26.2mm. Posted 25.6mm pillar size sounds odd. You might wish to check to see of seat binder ears have been pinched down onto a too small saddle pillar...
The black oxide bottom bracket cups appear to be REWAX/Bardon. They will be metric thread 35 X 1.0 (both right hand thread). Shell will be 68mm width.
One possible manufacturer I thought of is Saint Etienne. Attempted without success to locate a period correct head emblem for this maker. So it is just an idea.
-----
Last edited by juvela; 12-16-17 at 01:26 PM. Reason: addition
12-16-17, 09:47 AM
#6
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No idea what I am looking at with that multilayered headbadge/decal. But I will guess Urago.
12-16-17, 10:25 AM
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Looks French to me also. I found these in pics of French head badge collections. Did any maker do a model in remembrance of war victims? Don
12-16-17, 01:16 PM
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Agree it's very likely FR, but all the measurements Juvela mentions will be telling: measure it.
I have no reco of that head decal except the 3 roses look more like something used in British heraldry rather than FR, so maybe it's a hint of a Brit connection OR could be a decal added post-market.
I have no reco of that head decal except the 3 roses look more like something used in British heraldry rather than FR, so maybe it's a hint of a Brit connection OR could be a decal added post-market.
12-16-17, 02:43 PM
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Thank you all for the very helpful answers and for taking the time to share! I don`t have access to the bike for a few days but I will certainly measure the bb/tubes. In the meantime I secured some non acetone nail polish remover from my wife The bike feels/looks like a high quality product to me and is surprisingly light (have not measured just a guestiamate) regardless of the 25.6 seat post... If the nail polish remover trick works the decals under the paint will reveal its identity...
The bike feels/looks like a high quality product to me and is surprisingly light (have not measured just a guestiamate) regardless of the 25.6 seat post... If the nail polish remover trick works the decals under the paint will reveal its identity...
12-16-17, 03:09 PM
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Regarding the 63 P A marking on the lefthand dropout -
do not know what to make of this. 63 is too late to be a date for the bicycle and too big to be a size, yet too small one would think to be a serial. wonder if it could have perhaps been put in by a licensing agency...
@big chainring mentioned in post nr. 6 above that he thought bicycle might be a Urago. Urago did indeed place its serial on the lefthand dropout in this era. I have two on hand, one from 1957 and one from 1960. The format is different however as shown in this drawing. There are actually two numbers. The marking above the axle slot is the serial and the one below indicates Urago and the year of manufacture:
Urago machines of this era were supplied with metal headplates affixed with two vertically arranged fasteners 45mm apart:
-----
Regarding the 63 P A marking on the lefthand dropout -
do not know what to make of this. 63 is too late to be a date for the bicycle and too big to be a size, yet too small one would think to be a serial. wonder if it could have perhaps been put in by a licensing agency...
@big chainring mentioned in post nr. 6 above that he thought bicycle might be a Urago. Urago did indeed place its serial on the lefthand dropout in this era. I have two on hand, one from 1957 and one from 1960. The format is different however as shown in this drawing. There are actually two numbers. The marking above the axle slot is the serial and the one below indicates Urago and the year of manufacture:
Urago machines of this era were supplied with metal headplates affixed with two vertically arranged fasteners 45mm apart:
-----
Last edited by juvela; 12-16-17 at 05:36 PM. Reason: punctuation
12-16-17, 03:45 PM
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Regarding the 63 P A marking on the lefthand dropout -
do not know what to make of this. 63 is too late to be a date for the bicycle and too big to be a size, yet too small one would think to be a serial. wonder if it could have perhaps been put in by a licensing agency...
@big chainring mentioned in post nr. 6 above that he thought bicycle might be a Urago. Urago did indeed place its serial on the lefthand dropout in this era. I have two on hand, one from 1957 and one from 1960. The format is different however as shown in this drawing. There are actually two numbers. The marking above the axle slot is the serial and the one below indicates Urago and the year of manufacture:
-----
Regarding the 63 P A marking on the lefthand dropout -
do not know what to make of this. 63 is too late to be a date for the bicycle and too big to be a size, yet too small one would think to be a serial. wonder if it could have perhaps been put in by a licensing agency...
@big chainring mentioned in post nr. 6 above that he thought bicycle might be a Urago. Urago did indeed place its serial on the lefthand dropout in this era. I have two on hand, one from 1957 and one from 1960. The format is different however as shown in this drawing. There are actually two numbers. The marking above the axle slot is the serial and the one below indicates Urago and the year of manufacture:
-----
Thank you again. The picture doesn`t work for me unfortunately... The marking however is 63RA and not PA (I don`t know if it matters). I have a (poor ) pic of the BB which has a long string of numbers, I believe that is the SN.
12-16-17, 04:08 PM
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Thank you for the correction on the number. Was wondering if that character an R or a P and decided in favour of the P.
The number on the underside of the bottom bracket shell is from the manufacturer of the shell - NERVEX. It refers to the shell's specifications. If you license the bicycle at some point down the road do not permit the licensing agent to record it. There are bound to be thousands of registered bicycles where the agent has recorded this number.
NB - in case anyone else is unable to view the illustration it is part of this forum thread:
https://m.bikeforums.net/showthread.p...ighlight=urago
-----
Thank you for the correction on the number. Was wondering if that character an R or a P and decided in favour of the P.
The number on the underside of the bottom bracket shell is from the manufacturer of the shell - NERVEX. It refers to the shell's specifications. If you license the bicycle at some point down the road do not permit the licensing agent to record it. There are bound to be thousands of registered bicycles where the agent has recorded this number.
NB - in case anyone else is unable to view the illustration it is part of this forum thread:
https://m.bikeforums.net/showthread.p...ighlight=urago
-----
Last edited by juvela; 12-16-17 at 04:12 PM. Reason: addition
12-16-17, 07:34 PM
#13
feros ferio
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You may want to check the recent Capo Sieger thread, as well. He had to deal with an even worse DIY paint slop job than you do.
__________________
"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
12-17-17, 05:45 AM
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Brake calipers appear to be CLB Competition. If this is correct they could well be original although the fact that in both cases the pads are at the bottom of the adjustment slot could be a contraindication. If original one answer might be that frame was made for 27" wheel and it is being run with 700's.
---
When you are able to complete the disassembly you will have an opportunity to examine the steerer. There may be some markings there from maker of tube, possibly NERVOR, or serial.
-----
Brake calipers appear to be CLB Competition. If this is correct they could well be original although the fact that in both cases the pads are at the bottom of the adjustment slot could be a contraindication. If original one answer might be that frame was made for 27" wheel and it is being run with 700's.
---
When you are able to complete the disassembly you will have an opportunity to examine the steerer. There may be some markings there from maker of tube, possibly NERVOR, or serial.
-----
12-18-17, 10:54 AM
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Well, thank you all again for the info in this thread. had a quick 2 min with the bike today and measured the BB shell and it`s 68 mm so definitely not Italian...couldn`t see any markings on the cups tho, shall research later this week time permitting.
12-22-17, 04:19 AM
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So had a quick 5 minutes with the bike today and removed the fork. Only one marking on the steerer: AVIATION. the acetone free nail polish remover does zero to the paint btw
Last edited by estebe; 12-22-17 at 04:58 AM.
12-22-17, 12:39 PM
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Time to whip out your credit card.
And use it to gently scrape off the paint. It looks like the frame wasn't properly prepped before painting, so you may be in luck. Try it on an inconspicuous spot, and if the top coat comes off easily, go for the decal areas.
The head tube decal looks to be printed and quite vulnerable, so be careful.
And use it to gently scrape off the paint. It looks like the frame wasn't properly prepped before painting, so you may be in luck. Try it on an inconspicuous spot, and if the top coat comes off easily, go for the decal areas.
The head tube decal looks to be printed and quite vulnerable, so be careful.
12-23-17, 04:22 PM
#19
Disraeli Gears
Jeez, it has a head badge, for pity's sake. Work on that, carefully, and you'll probably have an answer.
I can offer a few things:
1) The Nervex lugs indicate a quality frame, and those combined with the non-forged rear dropouts suggest an early 50s frame.
2) The headbadge appears to be a "heraldic" sort of design; maybe more likely from a country having a fascination with monarchy/feudal glory than a republican one, but who knows?
3) Nervex Professional lugs were absent (or at least very uncommon) in English bikes before the middle 50s.
4) The braze-on for the rear derailleur looks like one for a Cyclo/Benelux changer. You can see a slightly better photo of one in this thread
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...ter-braze.html
disclaimer: I don't know much about these, despite owning the frame pictured. But that sort of mechanism had a shortish heyday in the development of gear changers, again in the early 50s.
5) The fact that it's only got the one braze-on for derailleur also suggests an early 50s frame, when many people/bikes didn't have two yet.
I can offer a few things:
1) The Nervex lugs indicate a quality frame, and those combined with the non-forged rear dropouts suggest an early 50s frame.
2) The headbadge appears to be a "heraldic" sort of design; maybe more likely from a country having a fascination with monarchy/feudal glory than a republican one, but who knows?
3) Nervex Professional lugs were absent (or at least very uncommon) in English bikes before the middle 50s.
4) The braze-on for the rear derailleur looks like one for a Cyclo/Benelux changer. You can see a slightly better photo of one in this thread
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...ter-braze.html
disclaimer: I don't know much about these, despite owning the frame pictured. But that sort of mechanism had a shortish heyday in the development of gear changers, again in the early 50s.
5) The fact that it's only got the one braze-on for derailleur also suggests an early 50s frame, when many people/bikes didn't have two yet.
Last edited by Charles Wahl; 12-23-17 at 04:30 PM.
12-24-17, 06:28 AM
#20
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Speaking about the headbadge. Those white flower or whatever things on red background remind me of motifs on some swiss headbadges (Allegro for example). “veloklassiker.ch” has a big gallery of swiss headbadges (100+) but it’s not complete.
12-24-17, 06:35 AM
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Draveil (south east of Paris) : https://quaranta1.chez-alice.fr/ecuss...e/draveil.html
12-24-17, 06:37 AM
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12-24-17, 06:49 AM
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Jeez, it has a head badge, for pity's sake. Work on that, carefully, and you'll probably have an answer.
I can offer a few things:
1) The Nervex lugs indicate a quality frame, and those combined with the non-forged rear dropouts suggest an early 50s frame.
2) The headbadge appears to be a "heraldic" sort of design; maybe more likely from a country having a fascination with monarchy/feudal glory than a republican one, but who knows?
3) Nervex Professional lugs were absent (or at least very uncommon) in English bikes before the middle 50s.
4) The braze-on for the rear derailleur looks like one for a Cyclo/Benelux changer. You can see a slightly better photo of one in this thread
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...ter-braze.html
disclaimer: I don't know much about these, despite owning the frame pictured. But that sort of mechanism had a shortish heyday in the development of gear changers, again in the early 50s.
5) The fact that it's only got the one braze-on for derailleur also suggests an early 50s frame, when many people/bikes didn't have two yet.
I can offer a few things:
1) The Nervex lugs indicate a quality frame, and those combined with the non-forged rear dropouts suggest an early 50s frame.
2) The headbadge appears to be a "heraldic" sort of design; maybe more likely from a country having a fascination with monarchy/feudal glory than a republican one, but who knows?
3) Nervex Professional lugs were absent (or at least very uncommon) in English bikes before the middle 50s.
4) The braze-on for the rear derailleur looks like one for a Cyclo/Benelux changer. You can see a slightly better photo of one in this thread
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...ter-braze.html
disclaimer: I don't know much about these, despite owning the frame pictured. But that sort of mechanism had a shortish heyday in the development of gear changers, again in the early 50s.
5) The fact that it's only got the one braze-on for derailleur also suggests an early 50s frame, when many people/bikes didn't have two yet.
12-24-17, 08:24 AM
#24
Disraeli Gears
Draveil (south east of Paris) : https://quaranta1.chez-alice.fr/ecuss...e/draveil.html
All that's left is to figure out who was building bikes in Draveil in the 50s . . .
12-24-17, 09:02 AM
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Draveil (south east of Paris) : https://quaranta1.chez-alice.fr/ecuss...e/draveil.html