Gladius

I bought an '86 Centurion Elite RS and believe it needs a new headset. Some searching around indicates that there may be two different sizes 1" threaded headsets for this era bike (JIS or ISO, 26.4/27?) and I don't know enough about these parts to know which I need.

The headset says "Tange Falcon Head Parts No.FL250 Japan"

A buddy suggested getting something from Velo Orange. Can I replace this caged bearing headset with a sealed bearing?

Could anyone educate me and point me at the correct replacement?

https://photos.app.goo.gl/5OmrXGl1BFRg7lGH2

Fahrenheit531 

Learn from my mistake (and I'll not go into the horrifying details)... remove the original headset, measure with a caliper, THEN order. Do not research, decide you have the correct answer, and then cram the wrong headset in there. Some things cannot be undone.

RobbieTunes

PM me your address and I'll send you a nice Shimano headset. Welcome to the Centurion cult. Believe the hype.

jamesdak 

^ people like this are why I hang out here. Such a great crowd.

cdmurphy

I second the advice to measure first, but your Centurion probably uses a JIS headset. Earlier ones would have been almost certainly JIS, but at some point in the late 80s, most everyone transitioned to ISO headset dimensions. Just be aware, that there really aren't any true JIS headsets in current production. You can buy some of Tange's models in "JIS", but that is just the 27.0mm crown race. They share the same 30.2mm cup dimensions with ISO headsets. Usually the small difference doesn't matter, but I don't like it. If you want the true 30.0mm JIS cups, you are stuck looking for used or NOS Japanese production from the 70s-90s.

One other possibility: Have a decent LBS ream out your head tube to 30.2mm and maybe and mill your crown race to 26.4mm The tools are pretty common, and shouldn't be more than 45 min. work. It isn't necessary now, but it would open up a lot of possibilities for modern cartridge bearing headsets in the future.

Gladius

Thanks for all the info, and the offer by Robbie.

For my education, what part do I need to measure, and where? Is there a good diagram somewhere?
I don't have an accurate caliper but have a friend who likely has one.

leftthread

Remove the fork and the headset cups.
Then remove the crown race from the fork crown.
Measure the crown race seat on the fork and the interior of the removed race in at least two spots and average.
Measure the outside of the headset cups.
Measure the inside of head tube.

Buy a good tool once and get it over with:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00JPHK2NO...ing=UTF8&psc=1

Cheers.

TugaDude

Love that teal paint! Robbie is a very generous soul. Bet it comes back to him tenfold. You have a sweet ride there.

RobbieTunes

Don't measure. It'll work.




I think.

JohnDThompson 

You won't be certain whether the head tube and fork crown race seat are milled for JIS or ISO until you remove the parts and measure directly (ISO uses 30.2mm ID head tube and 26.4mm ϴ crown race seat; JIS uses 30.0mm ϴ head tube and 27.0mm ϴ race seat). While it's most probable that the frame originally had a JIS headset, a previous owner may have had it milled to take an ISO headset at some point.

You're going to have to remove the headset eventually to replace it, so you may as well get it over with. Or just take your chances and order an ISO headset and accept the possibility that you may have to have the frame and fork milled to use the ISO headset.

RobbieTunes

Shipped a headset I know will fit. I've used the same model on a couple of bikes.

If not, I hear JohnDThompon near Lawrence University has a hammer that will make it fit.

clubman 

Truth??

cdmurphy

As far as I know. Tange is just about the only one that still offers JIS headsets, and they use the same 30.2mm cups as their ISO models.

Here is a link about it from Harris Cyclery: https://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/...eaded-jis.html

clubman 

Great...another couple of parts I need to hoard!

mstateglfr 

What is the brand and model? Curious as I have a late 80s frame needing a headset. Its one of the Novara Trifoso frames that is apparently a rebadged Ironman.

RobbieTunes

Shimano 6500. Tell us about this rebadged Ironman. Uber cool.

mstateglfr 

Thanks, i need to get off my duff and rebuild the frame, so this helps.

As for the frame, i am going off prior threads that show it was made at the same place(s) Ironman frames were made in the last couple years of the 80s. That, combined with it being Tange 1 and having the same lug designs and brake bridge led others to it being a rebadged Ironman.

The paint was in decent condition from 5', but had a ton of spots filled in, so i sanded it down and used a dry paint called SPRAY.BIKE that ive wanted to try out. Its something that wasnt much invested so ill powdercoat if needed.
I did flat black as a base with green flake and clearcoat.
Its not as smooth as wet paint and clearcoat, but its more consistent looking compared to spraypaint and is supposed to be more durable.

Frame hanging before paint



Fork ends in flat black before clearcoat.


Fork finished


Headtube

TugaDude

Mstateglfr, that effect looks very nice! How is durability so far? I have a frame which might be a candidate for that.

RobbieTunes

Wouldn't surprise me at all, as the same factory made the DX Panasonics, too. I believe the DX5000 was Tange 1 while the DX6000 was Prestige. Decades ago, there was a bike magazine article about that plant, featured a red/white Panasonic on the lead page, and listed many model of bikes produced there. If so, it should ride surprisingly well, which is the most common observation people make after riding an Ironman, especially one with properly tensioned wheels.

Of course, then, the aphrodisiac effect would be the only thing missing.

I once answered an ad for a "titanium" bike by Performance. I drove 2.5 hours to the upper coast of NC, only to find a sweet yellow steel frame with splatter effects, extremely similar to an Ironman. I picked it up just in case it was a good frame, and it was built into a very nicely riding bike by junkfoodjunkie, who was here on BF at the time. It was also Tange 1 and lugged identically to an Ironman.

You just never know.

mstateglfr 

Thanks! So far(no actual riding), it has held up perfect and just like every other bike I have(wet and powder coat). The finish feels hard(vs soft and able to dig a fingernail in) and the flake hasnt come off at all, so it appears to sit under the clear coat.

I did rub the paint with a cloth an hour or so after each application which the company says helps compress it and smooth out bumps that are created from dry paint hitting the frame(what happens when you spray from too far away). Not sure if that is something to be concerned about(that gentle swipes will improve the paint) or if its legitimately helpful and will make the paint stronger.

mstateglfr 

Interesting- I always thought Panasonics were all made by Panasonic. So built by National/Matsu****a.
I wonder if Panasonic made Centurion frames? I have read that Tano made some Centurion frames, but it would make sense for Centurion to contract out to different factories depending on yearly bids.
Ill have to look at the serial# and compare it to Tmar's guide. Cool!

RobbieTunes

The Panasonic National plant produced tons, literally, of bikes to spec for various marques. So familiar was I , at one time, I could tell by just handling the frame, that it was either built there or using the same QA specs. Schwinn, Shogun, Panasonic, Nishiki, Centurion, etc...I'm not sure any were rebadged, and have no way of knowing, but many were built on similar specs, I'd imagine. Tubing, lugs, the jigs for geometry, and then add in the QA specs, and you have a quality frame if you want one. The paint layers were similar, the lug filing was to a similar standard, etc. You look at enough C&V frames from the era, the similarities (and differences) start to stand out. For example Tsunoda's Lotus Classique and the 1979-1981 Centurion Semi Pro could be twin sons of a different mother, supporting the same approach, unique enough to know it came from somewhere common to both, with someone willing to spend more time on the Lotus, to make it nearly perfect, more so than the Semi-Pro.

The same can be said for steel high-end forks from Italy after about 1984. Most factories let Chirico make them, as Chirico patented a fork-making process that was adaptable, quicker, and cheaper than some of the frame builders could make their forks. No loss of quality, and made to order, distinctly and to spec.

TugaDude

I love the amount of knowledge shared here. I didn't mean to hijack the thread but am very grateful to hear Mstateglfr's experience with a product I'd heard about but knew zero about. Thanks!

Kikoooo

Need help, trying to figure out what my headset diamter??

trying to purchase a different drop bar which needs a different stem for it to fit. Trying to
purchase cinelli vai Stem 28.6mm (1-18) and pair it with cinelli dropbar

*tried to add photo of bike but wouldn’t let me

thank you!