Scimber

Hey all,

I did a search of the forums but didn't find all the info I was looking for so feel free to post a link to a thread that might answer my questions if there is one I missed.

First off, an intro since I am obviously a new member: I have been riding for years but never seem to cross the 3500 miles per year threshold. The last few years I moved states twice and started new jobs and slacked on riding far too much. I am back and riding a couple of times a week. Mainly short rides of 25 miles but my reference loop has a couple good climbs that reach 16% grade. In the past I have ridden Mount Evans on my old bike and more recently (two summers ago) rode both Mount Evans and Pikes Peak on back to back days. On those more recent rides I felt like my old heavier bike was easier to ride up hill. I am starting to think that I am just weak now but am hell bent on improving my climbing experience while I get back into a better state of tune. The big issue for me seems to be cadence - I am spinning too slow and have ridden behind others who, at the same pace, are spinning a faster cadence.

• My old bike was a 2007 K2 Mod 4.0 with Shimano 105 11-25T Cassette out back and an FSA Mega Exo 50/34T w/175mm cranks. (The bike was a large frame which fit my leg length.) A-Class ALX-220 rims riding on 23mm width tires.
  
• My new bike is a Tommasso Aggraziato (medium frame to better fit my short torso) with Shimano Ultegra 6800 11/28T outback and Ultegra 6800 50/34T up front w/172.5mm cranks. Mavic Askium rims on 25mm width tires.

Looking at those makes me think I am just weak now but now for the Qs:

• Does the 2.5mm crank length difference account for any perceived climbing effort changes?
  
• Would switching from a 11-28T to a 11-32T be a good idea or would it ruin my gear spacing? Is there a non-Shimano but compatible 11s option I should be looking at? Maybe a 11-30T?
  
• I am upgrading my current rims to a carbon fiber set that will run sub 1400 grams which will be about 500+ grams lighter than either of my previous sets - should I just wait for those and see how it goes or change the cassette at the same time.

Hope this isn't too noobie of a post. I have never really thought about these things or learned about gearing. Thanks for any help,

Erik

GrainBrain

Wow I'm jealous you climbed Pike's peak and Mount Evans. I'll post this website which I love. BikeCalc.com - Fixed Gear Calculator

Also try searching bike forums using Google. Just type into Google "bikeforums: search terms" I find this works way better then using the sites built in search.

Andrew R Stewart 

Gearing is just one more preference driven by conditioning, riding style, hill length/steepness and the limits to one's bike or budget. Generally I have found that when riding solo I have never wished I had a less low first gear, one can always shift to a harder gear...


- Crank arm length does make a difference to some. A longer arm is thought to make for more leverage (not power, that's up to your body) but not be as be as easily spun at higher RPMs. For others arm length is lost in the weeds at the side of the road.


-It's easy to plot out one's gearing then circle the combos you really like to use. From this you gain some idea as to what's already working for you in most conditions. The do the same with a different cog set and see how the numbers compare. Placing a classic paper gear inch chart on your stem is a time old way to further your understanding as to what you like when.


-Wheels might make moment to moment sensation difference but don't confuse reaction time with actual average pace. If you can't climb well no fancy wheels will change your nature. Andy

TallRider

Having a lower gear when you want it (and can pedal 80 instead of 60 rpm) is worth more than being able to fine-tune your RPM to your current speed and pedal 85 instead of being stuck with 89 or 82.

My own experience, when moving to California (Fresno, near the Sierra Nevada mountains) I swapped my 12-27 for a 12-34 and haven't regretted it at all. I expected to notice the wider gaps between gears, but haven't at all.

2.5mm crank length is unlikely to be noticed by most people, although you might be sensitive to it.

Scimber

Thanks for the link! I will dig in there.

I totally recommend both mountains. Evans is easier as the steepest grade is probably near 10% but I found the asphalt to be in a bit rougher condition. Pikes Peak has steeper grades so is a harder climb but holy descents batman was the down so much more fun!

canklecat

Sounds familiar. Hills are my nemesis, the one challenge I can't seem to progress on.

Longer crank arms might help. I'm planning to try 175's on my road bike this year.

My bikes aren't completely comparable but in approximately the same gearing I find the hybrid with 175 cranks easier for climbing, despite the bigger tires and heavier weight. I feel thwarted on climbs with the road bike with 172.5 cranks -- feels like I'm not getting the same leverage. I'm a little faster on the road bike, sure, but it's lighter and doesn't feel any easier on climbs.

The hybrid has 30/40/50 chainrings and 7-speed 13-28 cassette. The road bike has 7-speed 13-24 freewheel, although I've tried it with 13-25 too. I've swapped the original 52/42 chainring set to a 39T smaller ring. I've tried various combinations on familiar hills at comparable gear inches/ratios.

FWIW, I'm 5'11" with 33" inseam. That awkward in-between stage where 172.5 or 175 cranks could be appropriate. I do recall that when I first got the hybrid with 175 cranks it took awhile and lots of fiddling with the saddle height to find the sweet spot where I wasn't feeling unusual knee strain from hyper-extension, or quad strain from not enough extension.

I probably should borrow or rent a road bike my size with 175mm cranks first.

Another factor is body position. With the hybrid I'm more upright when standing out of the saddle on climbs -- most of my weight is on the pedals. It feels comparatively effortless. With the road bike I'm leaning forward more, even when I consciously try to avoid supporting my weight on the handlebar, putting the weight on the pedals. It feels less efficient, more strained. I'd need to raise the stem and reduce the reach to get a position comparable to the hybrid, but that would reduce the advantage of the drops while seated.

And if that doesn't work I'm out of excuses.

Cyclist0108

46-30T cranks

Bike Gremlin

Unless you are racing, only you can answer this question. I've never been a great climber and have been riding 2x5, then 3x6 bikes for years, no problems with gear spacing.

11 speed cassettes don't differ very much on the "fast part" of the cassette (at least the one that don't go beyond 32 T largest sprocket). You usually get 11-12-13-14. Then the 30 and 32 toothed ones get a few more 2 teeth jumps. Which doesn't matter very much physically. Riding 50-14, a 2 tooth jump makes a large difference in gearing ratio at that speed (and air resistance), but climbing with a 34 chainring - it makes little difference whether you're riding 34-25, or 34-26. Unless you are a man that just gets annoyed if the pace is that tad faster/slower than the one you feel is the optimal one for the climb. In that case, you'll "suffer" the "large" gearing gaps and be annoyed with the cassette. Until your body requires the 32 T chainring to keep climbing (though 34-25 should work for most climbs on a light road bike once you get fit enough).

Like wgscott has mentioned, 46-30 T cranks make a lot more sense with modern cassettes, all starting with 11, or 12 teeth smallest sprocket. Unless you like spinning down hills and "adding" speed. You'd get a better (and more efficient) chain line on most occasions, and also get an easier climbing gear, even with "standard" road cassettes.

Kovkov

Do some heavy squatting. Helped for me. I climb hills here in switzerland with 3 speeds.

davidad

Unless you are 6% body fat wheel weight won't matter much. Go for the bigger rear cog set until your conditioning improves. This site gives you an idea of the gear spacing.

Bicycle Gear Inch & Shifting Pattern Calculator

clasher

If you have small local hills to hit, do repeats one day instead of a regular ride. There's all kinds of structure training out there that is designed to help people climb hills better. I gave up myself and got lower gearing with a triple but that's not really an option for 11 speed. There's also the option of dropping some body weight if you have any to spare. I lost 15lbs due to illness over the winter and the first time I went back out it felt easier to climb but I haven't done a lot of riding yet this year so I can't say if it's actually made a difference until I get out more.

Scimber

Thanks for all the input so far.

Based on my reading I am going to stay away from crank length changes unless I buy a new crank set or other reasons as crank length discourse is a mess of different opinions and conflicting studies. Interestingly, I am now thinking if I did get new cranks I might down size as I am more cardio oriented vs power and on my current frame my toes can interfere with the the tire when doing a track stand.

I am going to get a new wheel set regardless and will put a 11-32T cassette on it as I think that will be a step in the right direction. Since I will be holding on to my current wheel set I can just switch my cassettes if it turns out to be a bad choice.

I totally get that the way to get better at climbing is to climb, as mentioned before, my reference loop has two climbs on it - the warmup climb with between 5% and 9% grades and the main event climb with grades between 7% and 18.5%. On the steeper climbs it looks like I am putting out only about 235 watts +/- 5 so I have room to grown into. I am seeing short bursts of 300+ watts but they are for less than a minute.

Jon T

My personal opinion is this: before spending a lot of $$ on something that may or may not work, work on YOU first. 9 times out of 10 the "motor" has more to do with performance than the equipment itself. Case in point--I ride an '84 Peugeot steel bike (bought it new btw). I have no trouble staying up with the pack on my group rides. Did I mention that I'm the only steel rider in said pack? Steel, or CF, work on the motor first.
Jon

HTupolev

The gearing is part of that motor's overall drivetrain. It's practically a matter of bike fit.

I often ride old steel bikes in spirited group rides, too. And their gearing differences have significant impacts, particularly with respect to how quickly my legs fatigue and whether or not I'm able to pounce up short steep climbs late into hard efforts.

cpach

What cage length is your current rear deraileur? RD-6800-SS has a rated maximum tooth count of 28t; you can probably get away with a 30t. RD-6800-GS has an official max tooth count of 32t. If you change out your derailleur, RD-R8000-GS has an official rating of 34t.

Another nice option is the trend of increasingly common 48-32 and 46-30 cranks. Praxis make some really nice 48-32s, and FSA makes some 48-32s as well as 46-30s. These'll both fit almost anything except Trek BB90.

Scimber

Hmmm... Well that is a good question. I have an Ultegra 6800 rear derailleur. Does that help? I bough and have not yet received a 11-32T cassette. Hoping that will work with it as its also a Ultegra level cassette.

turkey9186

It was mentioned earlier. I spent six weeks doing squats with 50#s. I usually did three sets of twenty with a few minutes break between them. The difference in my climbing ability was incredible.

cpach

Nope. RD-6800 comes in an SS and GS version. In person I can tell the difference between a short cage (ss) and medium cage (gs) derailleur by eye immediately. For you to determine that, if you look at the back of the derailleur body, there should be a stamping that says RD-6800-XX, either SS o GS. SS is rated to 28t, GS to 32. If the bike shipped with an 11-28 stock it probably has a SS derailleur. It MAY work with a 32t, but it's dicey and will not work as well as with the GS derailleur. If you decide to replace it, I recommend buying RD-R8000-GS as it's officially rated to 34t.

kc4sox

I have a 6800 Ultegra compact and have been running an 11-28. I wanted one more gear without ruining the spacing in the middle of the cassette. I ended up with a new Ultegra HG8000 11-30 and couldn't be happier. I now have a "Bailout gear" and the cassette feels very similar in the middle gears. Also, I am still using my short cage rear mech with no issues at all.

Scimber

Oddly my RD is stamped with only "RD-6800" and "JAPAN VIA"

So I am guessing bringing it into a bike shop might be the only way to tell?

jlvs2run

Front or back, full or half squats, and I imagine you did them quite slowly.

02Giant 

If you can ride a 34 x 25 up Pikes Peak, you don't need to change anything.

woodcraft

I recently got an 11-32 in preparation for some climbing events, to get beyond 11-28 (10 speed).

I used a Wolftooth 'roadlink' (~$20) to be able to keep the short cage RD.

The set up works well, shifting good. The gaps difference doesn't seem to be an issue,

and the surprising benefit is that it improves the system by being able to stay in the big ring more.

Otherwise it is a bailout gear.


I've used both of those crank lengths, & IMO the difference is noticeable but doesn't make much difference once you get used to it.

Scimber

To be fair a 70 year old man on a 14lb bike and gearing setup for climbing completely crushed me. It was a grind and I am a couple of years older. Not that you would think a couple of years would matter but it seems to. Not to mention lack of riding since then.

I just order the 11-30T just in case my RD can't handle the 11-32T

turkey9186

Two 25# barbells in each hand held at my side. I normally go down to a sitting position.
I also do lunges with two 10# barbells. My left knee can take the squats, but not the lunges with the 25#.